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Some people are finally waking up to the fact that Kickstarter is a legal scam -- something I like to call a semi-scam.
Oculus was funded by almost 10,000 people on Kickstarter for a combined $2.4 million. It sold to Facebook this week for $2 billion.
How much equity did the Kickstarter funders of Oculus get?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V3CfD8TPac
Well, that's not true. They got a t-shirt.
http://www.bloombergview.com/article...-us-your-money
weren't they also on shark tank and didn't get an offer ?
I saw Dutch last weekend at the wsopc stop and he was wearing a filthy poker tilt.com patch
Some nerve, since it's been almost a year and still no book for the poor schmucks who donated
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...the-game/posts
Why would backers have any equity in the company when ZERO POINT ZERO of the pledge levels mention ZERO POINT ZERO ownership of the company in any form, other than getting a development kit when its available.
I believe that companies using crowd funding cannot legally offer equity. There is legislation looking to change that, but as for now, you get nothing! Good day sir!
Quote:
Originally Posted by gauchojake
Actually it looks lie it's legal but only to specific types of investors (high income, high net worth)
Participants in Kickstarter are not promised any equity and donations are not considered an investment. I would agree that crowdfunding is a scam if they were deceived somehow, but it's stated very clearly what you get in return for your donations.
I call it a semi-scam because people aren't made to fully understand the ramifications of what they're doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SrslySirius
If Kickstarter donors were led to believe that the person/company might profit hugely from the "donation", they might think twice about donating like this. Most are just generous saps who think they are helping someone in need or helping a product become reality that will be of public interest.
So people see Oculus and think, "Wow, I'm a gamer, I'd love to see virtual reality taken to the next level! Take my money!" And that sounds well and good, until you realize that the person took your donation and parlayed it into $2 billion while you walk away with nothing.
As I said on radio last week, I think Kickstarter is appropriate for something like crowdfunding a SrslySirius video about PFA, where the funders get something out of it (seeing a video they will enjoy), and yet the product produced is unlikely to carry any real value outside of this small community.
It is not good to fund for-profit ventures, as you're just a big sucker if you donate to that.
Baseless speculation on your part Druff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan DruffI call it a semi-scam because people aren't made to fully understand the ramifications of what they're doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SrslySirius
Where exactly does it say in the Kickstarter "We will be a very small company that will never gain additional funding from any source or sell out in any way".
This is only a scam or fraud if the pledgers don't get their occulus rifts delivered in a reasonable timeframe after they were promised.
There have been a number of KS projects that have either been direct scams or ended up fraudulently, you are better served going after those and understanding them, then complain about this when it is neither a scam nor a fraud.
Also to put Druff's crusade into perspective, a total of $38290 out of $2,437,429 (1.6%) were pledges that did not involve a reward level that gave a prototype kit or other hardware.
Hey druff you ever see a man drink his own piss?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewfather
Unless kickstarter started using the term "investment" instead of "donation", I do not see how this is a scam in any way.
EDIT: basically what srslysrs said above.
EDIT2: referring to Occulus obv, not Dutch.
The kid is from my hometown. Ill see him from time to time in various local card spots. He doesn't plug the book like I thought he would.
If you want to reshape the argument to saying that it's a sucker move to donate for-profit ventures, then you make a perfectly valid point. When Veronica Mars and Zach Braff beg their fans for money on crowdsourcing websites, it somewhat rubs me the wrong way too. Then again, I can understand how people might be so passionate about seeing a project completed. If in some alternate universe Kickstarter exists in 2001 and South Park gets cancelled, I would snap-ship Trey Parker 30 bucks to ensure that a 6th season gets created. I wouldn't care if he made millions off it. I'd be happy with my new DVD and assurance that the show goes on. You might think me a sucker, but I'd consider it great value.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
I can't think of many other scenarios that would compel me to fund a Kickstarter initiative, but I'm sure many others are finding value as well, considering how popular it is.
Perhaps a better word (than scam or semi-scam) to describe a flaw in Kickstarter is exploitation. In the example above, if Trey Parker is easily capable of raising money through loans and such, then it would be a scumbag move to take money from fans. That's probably a shitty example now that I think more about it. What Zach Braff did was exploitative. Millionaires should not use Kickstarter.
That wasn't the case with Occulus though, if I understand the situation correctly. They were just a small startup that was likely going to fail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SrslySirius
In the high profile cases where kickstarter was having big names do things to raise funds for projects, it was kickstarter that was trying to elevate their own profile in doing those things. They never expected that it would backfire in just the terms you put it. I honestly feel the same about Dutch here, if that shitheel can't get a publisher through the traditional route, fuck him, no kickstarter for you. The pathetic self-entitled spoilage that it reeks of is stomach turning.
Druff I think you are confused about this (at least not wording it right) kick starter isn't the scam here, Dutch is the scam. Tossing someone a little bit of cash for an idea is fine, it's when that person has no intention of completing the task that he's a scammer.
If someone had a great idea and I gave them some money I wouldn't expect anything in return even if they made billions off of it. I'd tip my hat, say congrats and take some satisfaction that I had a small part in that as part of a collective effort. There's a big difference between tossing someone 25 or 50 bucks to help and investing 20k in hopes of getting a return on it. If I wanted to do something more I would contact the people directly and offer a larger investment for a share of profits
I just think Kickstarter should separate for-profit and non-profit efforts on the site, and the for-profit efforts should be clearly explained to all donors, so they are clearly understanding that they are giving money to someone who will turn around and attempt to make a big profit from it.
I think a lot of the people donating just aren't thinking it through. They think they're just being nice/generous, when in reality they are putting up funding for a for-profit business and getting nothing in return. For-profit businesses don't deserve charity, especially from the general public.
The government tried to resolve this actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
They made efforts to allow micro-lending/micro-investment so you could get something in return for your investment.
The problem like anything the government gets involved in, they fucked micro-lending right in the asshole and made it impossible to do.
I agree with you but really people should understand what they're getting, it's made pretty clear on the site. If you think it should be made clearer with a disclaimer or something I think that's reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
I've donated to a couple of for-profit companies on Kickstarter but they were good friends of mine trying to get something off the ground and I didn't mind tossing them $100 with zero expectation of return. Why anyone would just go toss money at someone they don't know with no chance of return is beyond me.
I think kickstareter was a really cool idea that just went very wrong...
I think its good if you can buy some product that is like new , very cool , is not on the market yet and you would like to have it... Then you can take a risk , prepay for the product and when author finish it thank to your funding ... maybe he will really send you the product (as he stated on the website he will do, when he needed the money).
You obviously have no guarantee but if its like a very cool idea and it does look solid , then it might be worth a risk.
For example : "hey im mr.ABC i can make this really cool iphone case for you that will have a beer opener and in it a swiss knife in it. Buy this for like 60usd and when its finished , i will send u the product . "
Iphone case is not worth 60usd , even w the beer opener and knife , so ur clearly overpaying , but if u really like the product and would like to have it , it might be ok to overpay for it and help the autor to fund it imo. (pls dont talk about how stupid my beer opener iphone case idea is :D it was just an example)
Thats what kickstareter should be for imo.
Its fkin stupid to give someone money just so he can build a product and then make a shitloads of money and give you nothing back. Its kinda different when the project is nonprofit or something , but thats called charity , not kickstarter imo.
In this case of Duch Boyd , oh my god how stupid the people that paid him are?
I dont get how someone needs money so he can write a book? U dont need anyting to write a book. You just sit down and write the damn thing :D , even if u dont have a computer or so you can just write it in a public library or somewhere. And then when its written, u can go to kickstarter and try to make ppl prepay for it so u can publish it.
Boyd is clearly shady here , and ppl who paid for this are dumb as fk imo.
And yes , kickstarter is imo like a hybrid between a online market (where u pre pay for a stuff with NO guarantee) and a charity.
Most charites are scams anyway , and prepay online store with no guarantee of getting anything doesnt look very good either so... imo kickstarter is like 25% good idea and 75% scam / site that exploits stupid and naive ppl .
(sorry for a long post :) )
When I think of Kickstarter, I think of projects that aren't good enough to get real investors! I contributed to a family member's Kickstarter campaign once. It was for starting a letterpress business. Sadly, they broke the letterpress while moving.
(I often joke to my wife that a certain generation thinks it is owed an awesome life, and that's the one I associate with Kickstarter. Yeah, I'm a grumpy, old man.)
My wife really liked the idea of Kiva. We gave people little bits of money, but it was stuff that could help change lives. If they couldn't pay back, no big deal. Most people did, though. I'm sure there were tons of scams amid the truly heartwarming stuff.
How about this Kickstarter? (I'd get behind Sam Kinison, if he needed the money.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4aob4zlhIk
Here is a Kickstarter project that was fully funded this month ($13,782) for George Retelas (my nephew) who is a film festival award winning producer. He is not a person of financial means, but is very talented. People who contributed were family, friends, and the Kickstarter community. I am consulting (no charge) to make this a quality project. Everyone who contributed knew they were investing in this documentary about the USS Hornet Carrier Air Group 11 in WWII without a profit motive for them or George. Times are tough these days for youngsters and asking for donations was needed to fulfill his dream. I hope the likes of Kickstarter scammers doesn't ruin it for legitimate artists down the road.
http://vimeo.com/86765279