Quadriplegic poker pro K.L. Cleeton is asking for a bunch of money to attend WSOP -- is he overreaching or justified?

We have discussed K.L. Cleeton before here.

There was a nice story about him in 2021, where the poker community got together to donate to his gofundme in order to raise money for a special van he needs to be driven places.

In 2022, he got into his first controversy, as he had a scrap with high maintenance Asian female player Kitty Kuo, regarding KL's father's presence slowing down the game.

Now, in 2023, he's in somewhat of a controversy again. He's asking for someone in the community to sponsor or fund his WSOP trip in some way, including nonstandard expenses such as paying for his parents to take time off work to help him:

https://twitter.com/highhands89/stat...34908649914373
https://twitter.com/highhands89/stat...34911443329029
https://twitter.com/highhands89/stat...34916803649537
https://twitter.com/highhands89/stat...34919450255360


Some people are supportive, though nobody has offered him anything yet:

https://twitter.com/Man1Sunshine/sta...05040340525057



Others are critical, especially involving the "give me money to pay my parents because they have to take time off work" part:

https://twitter.com/pokerislife331/s...08860298887168

https://twitter.com/Typoke69/status/1646641944003526658

https://twitter.com/JohnHad85701608/...72906054856705

https://twitter.com/slayAbidesDOTL/s...07951044898818



Even others are pointing out that K.L. has only had limited success at the WSOP, and thus he should not be begging for money to go play there:

https://twitter.com/MNsnowplow/statu...42480372211724

Here are my feelings on the matter:


First off, K.L. can ask for whatever he wants from the community. As long as he's straightforward and honest regarding why he's asking for it, and what people will get in return, he's welcome to put out the request, even if it goes unfulfilled. I don't fault him for that.

Also, he does seem to be attempting to get a sponsorship rather than a stake. He feels that a brand promoting him (a quadriplegic poker player) could score some good press, and thus it would be worth their while. Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong, but it's not unreasonable to suggest.

In addition, he has a good reputation, and is known to be an honest guy.


BUT...


I have to agree with some of the critics that the request to compensate his parents for missed work is LOL.

I mean, if some generous Bill Perkins type decides to do this and pay his parents, that's great for him, but it's a bit of a ballsy ask. It's very nice that his parents are so supportive, and are willing to put their lives on hold in order to physically enable his poker career. If I had a son in K.L.'s position, I would do the same thing. However, there's only so much you can expect of the community when it comes to what is reasonable for them to pay for.

Regarding a sponsorship...

- K.L.'s tournament buyins: Paying for these is standard.

- K.L.'s travel/room/food expenses: Paying for these is not automatic, but does occur in many cases.

- K.L.'s parents travel/room/food expenses: Totally NON-STANDARD, but maaaaaybe you can argue that this is an unusual circumstance (he needs at least one parent to physically help him move the cards and chips), so this isn't an outrageous ask. But it's getting close to being too greedy.

- K.L.'s parents salary compensation for missed time at work: L-O-FUCKING-L. There are so many reasons why this is an outrageous ask. K. L. himself is disabled, but his parents are not. If they wish to come help, that's great. If they get their expenses paid, that's also great. But they also need to take on some of the burden here. He's their kid, not ours. They can't expect their own salaries from missed work to be paid by a sponsor.



Honestly, I think K.L. is asking for too much here. It's fine to appeal to the community to put him in the WSOP, and even to help with some of the expenses, but that's where it should end.

He's also a partner in a poker training company, and some people are asking why the company itself isn't covering these expenses. He claimed in response that the company "invests all of its profits back into the company", but that sounds like a copout.

I don't see anyone likely backing him on this one, but stranger things have happened.

hes completely overreaching but i get the feeling its happening because his condition has robbed him of any sort of social compass for whats an appropriate ask here.

also im sorry but why is anyone calling him a pro if he has no sponsorship and a total of like 36k lifetime winnings?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Here are my feelings on the matter:


First off, K.L. can ask for whatever he wants from the community. As long as he's straightforward and honest regarding why he's asking for it, and what people will get in return, he's welcome to put out the request, even if it goes unfulfilled. I don't fault him for that.

Also, he does seem to be attempting to get a sponsorship rather than a stake. He feels that a brand promoting him (a quadriplegic poker player) could score some good press, and thus it would be worth their while. Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong, but it's not unreasonable to suggest.

In addition, he has a good reputation, and is known to be an honest guy.


BUT...


I have to agree with some of the critics that the request to compensate his parents for missed work is LOL.

I mean, if some generous Bill Perkins type decides to do this and pay his parents, that's great for him, but it's a bit of a ballsy ask. It's very nice that his parents are so supportive, and are willing to put their lives on hold in order to physically enable his poker career. If I had a son in K.L.'s position, I would do the same thing. However, there's only so much you can expect of the community when it comes to what is reasonable for them to pay for.

Regarding a sponsorship...

- K.L.'s tournament buyins: Paying for these is standard.

- K.L.'s travel/room/food expenses: Paying for these is not automatic, but does occur in many cases.

- K.L.'s parents travel/room/food expenses: Totally NON-STANDARD, but maaaaaybe you can argue that this is an unusual circumstance (he needs at least one parent to physically help him move the cards and chips), so this isn't an outrageous ask. But it's getting close to being too greedy.

- K.L.'s parents salary compensation for missed time at work: L-O-FUCKING-L. There are so many reasons why this is an outrageous ask. K. L. himself is disabled, but his parents are not. If they wish to come help, that's great. If they get their expenses paid, that's also great. But they also need to take on some of the burden here. He's their kid, not ours. They can't expect their own salaries from missed work to be paid by a sponsor.



Honestly, I think K.L. is asking for too much here. It's fine to appeal to the community to put him in the WSOP, and even to help with some of the expenses, but that's where it should end.

He's also a partner in a poker training company, and some people are asking why the company itself isn't covering these expenses. He claimed in response that the company "invests all of its profits back into the company", but that sounds like a copout.

I don't see anyone likely backing him on this one, but stranger things have happened.

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It’s odd that anyone feels a need to consider this. He’s asking for a gift.
Land of the free, you do as you want. Take your eventual winnings and pass them on
to abortion clinics and anything transgender

This is a world in which people pay people to eat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sonatine

hes completely overreaching but i get the feeling its happening because his condition has robbed him of any sort of social compass for whats an appropriate ask here.

also im sorry but why is anyone calling him a pro if he has no sponsorship and a total of like 36k lifetime winnings?

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:this

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sonatine

hes completely overreaching but i get the feeling its happening because his condition has robbed him of any sort of social compass for whats an appropriate ask here.

also im sorry but why is anyone calling him a pro if he has no sponsorship and a total of like 36k lifetime winnings?

---

Right, being a quadriplegic will erase any and all critical thinking.
I’d say he’s playing the opponent, not the hand

Big opportunity for mickeycrimm to capitalize on here.

He should go trans

Credit to Druff for creating a system where quadriplegics and cancer patients have to jump through hoops to get charity stakes.

Gonna need some date stamps on those photos.

News Alert: Begging to get staked is not a new phenomenon in poker. If people want to put losing players into action, I don’t have a problem with it.

I think the most important question to ask here is "Who cares?"

He asked. If no one wants to, they don't have to. If someone does, good for him.

here are my thoughts

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serial Fail

I think the most important question to ask here is "Who cares?"

He asked. If no one wants to, they don't have to. If someone does, good for him.

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yeah theres a long and storied history of people just straight up hoping some wealthy weirdo gets drunk enough to ship them a bag so they can gamble it.

really this is nothing but a variation of that theme.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sonatine

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Serial Fail

I think the most important question to ask here is "Who cares?"

He asked. If no one wants to, they don't have to. If someone does, good for him.

---

yeah theres a long and storied history of people just straight up hoping some wealthy weirdo gets drunk enough to ship them a bag so they can gamble it.

really this is nothing but a variation of that theme.

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Yes pretty much anyone is allowed to beg for money publicly. But in doing so you agree to the social contract of being called out for being a greedy fuck. It's one thing to ask for a buy in to the main event but this guy is asking for even more than an all expenses paid trip. Once you start asking for opportunity cost money for someone who isnt even you... well looks like time to bring back the begatar.

FTR the van thing was a great fundraiser and nothing like this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sonatine

yeah theres a long and storied history of people just straight up hoping some wealthy weirdo gets drunk enough to ship them a bag so they can gamble it.

really this is nothing but a variation of that theme.

---

Yes pretty much anyone is allowed to beg for money publicly. But in doing so you agree to the social contract of being called out for being a greedy fuck. It's one thing to ask for a buy in to the main event but this guy is asking for even more than an all expenses paid trip. Once you start asking for opportunity cost money for someone who isnt even you... well looks like time to bring back the begatar.

FTR the van thing was a great fundraiser and nothing like this.

---

true.

also fwiw im seeing a _lot_ more people outside of poker/crypto/whatever try to crowdsource funds for all sorts of weird ass reasons these days. some legit, some less so. so culturally its getting very acceptable to just straight up beg strangers for money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sonatine

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

Yes pretty much anyone is allowed to beg for money publicly. But in doing so you agree to the social contract of being called out for being a greedy fuck. It's one thing to ask for a buy in to the main event but this guy is asking for even more than an all expenses paid trip. Once you start asking for opportunity cost money for someone who isnt even you... well looks like time to bring back the begatar.

FTR the van thing was a great fundraiser and nothing like this.

---

true.

also fwiw im seeing a _lot_ more people outside of poker/crypto/whatever try to crowdsource funds for all sorts of weird ass reasons these days. some legit, some less so. so culturally its getting very acceptable to just straight up beg strangers for money.

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Indeed. The same goes for anyone who flop’s position on their initial take
when it comes up short in popular opinion

Shut up, you’re floundering

We need a Super High Roller like Pipes to step up and handle things...you understand?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sonatine

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

Yes pretty much anyone is allowed to beg for money publicly. But in doing so you agree to the social contract of being called out for being a greedy fuck. It's one thing to ask for a buy in to the main event but this guy is asking for even more than an all expenses paid trip. Once you start asking for opportunity cost money for someone who isnt even you... well looks like time to bring back the begatar.

FTR the van thing was a great fundraiser and nothing like this.

---

true.

also fwiw im seeing a _lot_ more people outside of poker/crypto/whatever try to crowdsource funds for all sorts of weird ass reasons these days. some legit, some less so. so culturally its getting very acceptable to just straight up beg strangers for money.

---

Yes it certainly says something when one of the most popular reddits for young people is https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/

I say this as someone who has a subpar work ethic but it's like young people are proud of this nowadays. Ripping off government subsidies, piracy, not paying for streaming services, outright shoplifting... And don't get me started on living with your parents... I mean I'm not even sure the rates have increased (outside of living with parents) but it's clear the level of shame in doing these things has drastically dropped.

Someone should do their dissertation on this and you are guaranteed to run the gauntlet of right wing talk shows.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sonatine

true.

also fwiw im seeing a _lot_ more people outside of poker/crypto/whatever try to crowdsource funds for all sorts of weird ass reasons these days. some legit, some less so. so culturally its getting very acceptable to just straight up beg strangers for money.

---

Yes it certainly says something when one of the most popular reddits for young people is https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/

I say this as someone who has a subpar work ethic but it's like young people are proud of this nowadays. Ripping off government subsidies, piracy, not paying for streaming services, outright shoplifting... And don't get me started on living with your parents... I mean I'm not even sure the rates have increased (outside of living with parents) but it's clear the level of shame in doing these things has drastically dropped.

Someone should do their dissertation on this and you are guaranteed to run the gauntlet of right wing talk shows.

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Get the cane out. You and every old fart before you have said the same about the next generation.
You go a little further with a political conspiracy take. What the fuck was that?

Parents blaming their children, the rich blaming the poor and on it goes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sonatine

true.

also fwiw im seeing a _lot_ more people outside of poker/crypto/whatever try to crowdsource funds for all sorts of weird ass reasons these days. some legit, some less so. so culturally its getting very acceptable to just straight up beg strangers for money.

---

Yes it certainly says something when one of the most popular reddits for young people is https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/

I say this as someone who has a subpar work ethic but it's like young people are proud of this nowadays. Ripping off government subsidies, piracy, not paying for streaming services, outright shoplifting... And don't get me started on living with your parents... I mean I'm not even sure the rates have increased (outside of living with parents) but it's clear the level of shame in doing these things has drastically dropped.

Someone should do their dissertation on this and you are guaranteed to run the gauntlet of right wing talk shows.

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The youngs are faggots about it but working is gay imo. Have always thought that workaholics are compensating for having nothing else in life, tangible or otherwise.

I could have earned a lot more had I accepted a data analyst offer at Nike but heard nothing but horror stories from peers about being ground to dust.

No thanks; I'd rather work a tight 40 and have time for family/hobbies versus killing myself for more wealth.

its so weird having been in tech when the fucking groundskeepers and in-house masseurs at google become overnight millionaires on their stock options.

will anything like that ever happen again in my lifetime?

doubtful.

maybe if theres some sort of insane ML fueled genetic engineering industry, otherwise...

but yeah the under 30 year olds see how lucrative grifting and theft is and how many millionaires it makes and how few people can even call themselves middle class without 2 jobs and they just say fuck it and i cant blame them.

if you want to see people work hard, give them houses they can afford etc etc. who tf wants to give themselves a stroke at age 50 putting in 70 hours a week so this years new CEO can pad out his 8 figure golden parachute? oh and then get fired because jpow raised interest rates because the market is bloated, of course.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sonatine

its so weird having been in tech when the fucking groundskeepers and in-house masseurs at google become overnight millionaires on their stock options.

will anything like that ever happen again in my lifetime?

doubtful.

maybe if theres some sort of insane ML fueled genetic engineering industry, otherwise...

but yeah the under 30 year olds see how lucrative grifting and theft is and how many millionaires it makes and how few people can even call themselves middle class without 2 jobs and they just say fuck it and i cant blame them.

if you want to see people work hard, give them houses they can afford etc etc. who tf wants to give themselves a stroke at age 50 putting in 70 hours a week so this years new CEO can pad out his 8 figure golden parachute? oh and then get fired because jpow raised interest rates because the market is bloated, of course.

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is it weird bro? weird how you're posting here instead of your ultra active stock forum









https://youtu.be/K0fLP_N6UxM





take a hike fatso