What would Rumsfeld do?
We miss him already.
LOL reminds me of a little thing the CIA once didQuote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
I bet sonatine could never guess what political party fucked that up.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwaiLOL reminds me of a little thing the CIA once didQuote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
The mayor of Miami is the son of Cuban immigrants, who was born in Miami, and is a part of the giant Cuban expat community that despises the Communist regime. I think this is more personal for him (and playing to the local populace) and doesn't really fit neatly into the elephant vs donkey paradigm, and this is a bit of a reach.
Truman started the CIA but Eisenhower pulled the pin. Even Truman knew bad (inept) regime change shit was gonna happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by gutI bet sonatine could never guess what political party fucked that up.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwai
Oh, gosh …. The inaugural C.I.A. regime change was a fuck up called the Bay of Pigs
The answer was Republican
I don’t mean to rain on your GOP hate party but the Bay of Pigs happened in April 1961 and last time I checked JFK was POTUS and he was a Democrat.Quote:
Originally Posted by SanlmarTruman started the CIA but Eisenhower pulled the pin. Even Truman knew bad (inept) regime change shit was gonna happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by gut
Oh, gosh …. The inaugural C.I.A. regime change was a fuck up called the Bay of Pigs
The answer was Republican
C.I.A. Chief Allen Dulles was installed by Eisenhower (R). Dulles drew Kennedy into the fiasco. Dulles and the Joint Chiefs were certain and gambled Kennedy would draw in the military. They wanted war with the Soviets. Kennedy passed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ftpjesusI don’t mean to rain on your GOP hate party but the Bay of Pigs happened in April 1961 and last time I checked JFK was POTUS and he was a Democrat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanlmar
Kennedy fired Dulles and his co-conspirators a few months after the abortive invasion, and told a friend that he wanted to “splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the winds.” The outrage was very obviously mutual.
Fun bonus:
When Kennedy himself was assassinated on Nov. 22, 1963, it must have occurred to Truman – as it did to many others – that the disgraced Dulles and his unrepentant associates might not be above conspiring to get rid of a president they felt was soft on Communism and get even for their Bay of Pigs fiasco.
I kinda slow played that one ftp. Hope no bad feelings. Peace
The fun part is if any one of the “little” countries had a pair of balls they wouldn’t ask the entire union to back there fucked up thinkingQuote:
Originally Posted by SanlmarC.I.A. Chief Allen Dulles was installed by Eisenhower (R). Dulles drew Kennedy into the fiasco. Dulles and the Joint Chiefs were certain and gambled Kennedy would draw in the military. They wanted war with the Soviets. Kennedy passed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ftpjesus
Kennedy fired Dulles and his co-conspirators a few months after the abortive invasion, and told a friend that he wanted to “splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the winds.” The outrage was very obviously mutual.
Fun bonus:
When Kennedy himself was assassinated on Nov. 22, 1963, it must have occurred to Truman – as it did to many others – that the disgraced Dulles and his unrepentant associates might not be above conspiring to get rid of a president they felt was soft on Communism and get even for their Bay of Pigs fiasco.
I kinda slow played that one ftp. Hope no bad feelings. Peace
JFK was pussyfooting around, classic dem move. Had to act strong against Communism/Cuba, since he ran on that, but when it came time to actually do something, he neutered the attack plan and doomed it to fail. Solid strategy...whatever, he was banging some floozy that night no matter what.Quote:
Originally Posted by SanlmarC.I.A. Chief Allen Dulles was installed by Eisenhower (R). Dulles drew Kennedy into the fiasco. Dulles and the Joint Chiefs were certain and gambled Kennedy would draw in the military. They wanted war with the Soviets. Kennedy passed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ftpjesus
Kennedy fired Dulles and his co-conspirators a few months after the abortive invasion, and told a friend that he wanted to “splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the winds.” The outrage was very obviously mutual.
Fun bonus:
When Kennedy himself was assassinated on Nov. 22, 1963, it must have occurred to Truman – as it did to many others – that the disgraced Dulles and his unrepentant associates might not be above conspiring to get rid of a president they felt was soft on Communism and get even for their Bay of Pigs fiasco.
I kinda slow played that one ftp. Hope no bad feelings. Peace
I'm not sure there were 2 dumber mf'ers in high office in the last 100 years than JFK and his brother. No surprise what happened to them. When people are still arguing 60 years later over which organization killed you, because literally everyone hated you, not a good sign.
Unless you have your own army, you don't attack the cops and the robbers at the same time.
Truman Doctrine
The Truman Doctrine was an American foreign policy with the primary goal of containing Soviet geopolitical expansion during the Cold War. It was announced to Congress by President Harry S. Truman on March 12, 1947,[1] and further developed on July 4, 1948, when he pledged to contain the communist uprisings in Greece and Turkey.Direct American military force was usually not involved,
There is enough fail and nefarious activity to go around. Personally, I have long felt Truman was the scourge fresh off WWII and set us up for post war fail after fail.
We came incredibly close to not having Truman and thus American international politics might have taken a much different direction
The discovery of the CIA Chief Allen Dulles (Eisenhower) is a more recent treat and makes it difficult to lay the blame for a policy and value system that was responsible for Vietnam —> Afghanistan
There are no heroes
huh? before Bay of Pigs in 1961 the cia was involved in coups of Iran 1953, and Guatamala 1954 and the Congo 1960. And after the US was in on Dominican Republic (1961), South Vietnam (1963), Brazil (1964) and Chile (1973)...plus before the CIA came into being the US overthrew Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Phillipines, Nicaragua, Panama and a few othersQuote:
Originally Posted by SanlmarTruman started the CIA but Eisenhower pulled the pin. Even Truman knew bad (inept) regime change shit was gonna happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by gut
Oh, gosh …. The inaugural C.I.A. regime change was a fuck up called the Bay of Pigs
The answer was Republican
indeed, there was a lot of meddling the US did that isn't taught in schools
What an idiot. Nuclear warfare potentially 90 miles away and you consider JFK ‘s move pussyfooting?Quote:
Originally Posted by gutJFK was pussyfooting around, classic dem move. Had to act strong against Communism/Cuba, since he ran on that, but when it came time to actually do something, he neutered the attack plan and doomed it to fail. Solid strategy...whatever, he was banging some floozy that night no matter what.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanlmar
I'm not sure there were 2 dumber mf'ers in high office in the last 100 years than JFK and his brother. No surprise what happened to them. When people are still arguing 60 years later over which organization killed you, because literally everyone hated you, not a good sign.
Unless you have your own army, you don't attack the cops and the robbers at the same time.
The options were incredible and not good for either side. Read a book
Hey, as you can probably tell, i'm no imperialist. But it would have been nice if Kennedy at least had the nuts to just say NO to the entire fucking operation. He did have those balls, history shows he wasn't lacking in that department. So again what he did was try to half-ass politico the shit, and it turned into a disaster. Then he blamed other people, which is the most American thing to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanlmar
Tomato, tomato, I suppose. Just different viewpoints here.
No hard feelings. In fact it’s not much of a secret the Warhawks were indeed behind Kennedy’s assassination after he had a second chance to do their bidding and backed out on invading Cuba during the Missile Crisis as the brass all thought a Nuclear war was winneable and may have been given the US superiority and ability to strike rapidly and potentially decapitate the Soviets with only their bombers a threat really. Anyway when Kennedy balked on that (we were actually 24hrs of going in per my Dad who was a newly commissioned 2LT at Benning and we’re on alert to go). They decided he had to go. Kennedy also balked at going into replace the French who’d pulled out of Vietnam already seeing the quagmire for what it was way ahead of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by SanlmarC.I.A. Chief Allen Dulles was installed by Eisenhower (R). Dulles drew Kennedy into the fiasco. Dulles and the Joint Chiefs were certain and gambled Kennedy would draw in the military. They wanted war with the Soviets. Kennedy passed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ftpjesus
Kennedy fired Dulles and his co-conspirators a few months after the abortive invasion, and told a friend that he wanted to “splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the winds.” The outrage was very obviously mutual.
Fun bonus:
When Kennedy himself was assassinated on Nov. 22, 1963, it must have occurred to Truman – as it did to many others – that the disgraced Dulles and his unrepentant associates might not be above conspiring to get rid of a president they felt was soft on Communism and get even for their Bay of Pigs fiasco.
I kinda slow played that one ftp. Hope no bad feelings. Peace
Quote:
Originally Posted by gutHey, as you can probably tell, i'm no imperialist. But it would have been nice if Kennedy at least had the nuts to just say NO to the entire fucking operation. He did have those balls, history shows he wasn't lacking in that department. So again what he did was try to half-ass politico the shit, and it turned into a disaster. Then he blamed other people, which is the most American thing to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanlmar
Tomato, tomato, I suppose. Just different viewpoints here.
i think you also have to view it through the lens of domino theory / soviet aggression.
it wasnt long after BoP that khrushchev went ham with the cuban nuke bases.
im painting in broad strokes here, of course.
Inserting “Inaugural” was pretty stupid. Wonder why I did thatQuote:
Originally Posted by GrenadaRogerhuh? before Bay of Pigs in 1961 the cia was involved in coups of Iran 1953, and Guatamala 1954 and the Congo 1960. And after the US was in on Dominican Republic (1961), South Vietnam (1963), Brazil (1964) and Chile (1973)...plus before the CIA came into being the US overthrew Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Phillipines, Nicaragua, Panama and a few othersQuote:
Originally Posted by Sanlmar
indeed, there was a lot of meddling the US did that isn't taught in schools
You’re right, Eisenhower, Dulles and the CIA has been hard at work since ‘53.
Limitles is right tho. I would not have bet on the US with nukes
Who the “aggressor” was depended on which continent you resided. We were pretty busy too. We had announced in plain English what our intentions were.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatineQuote:
Originally Posted by gut
i think you also have to view it through the lens of domino theory / soviet aggression.
it wasnt long after BoP that khrushchev went ham with the cuban nuke bases.
im painting in broad strokes here, of course.
I still feel that when talking about preferred alternate history, i would rank it asQuote:
Originally Posted by sonatineQuote:
Originally Posted by gut
i think you also have to view it through the lens of domino theory / soviet aggression.
it wasnt long after BoP that khrushchev went ham with the cuban nuke bases.
im painting in broad strokes here, of course.
1. we did nothing (no BoP)
2. we full on assraped Cuba and took it over
3. what actually happened
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanlmarWho the “aggressor” was depended on which continent you resided. We were pretty busy too. We had announced in plain English what our intentions were.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
i subscribed to a very anti-american intelligence apparatus perspective (informed largely by dead kennedys lyrics) until the day i read oleg kalugin's autobiography.
only been following from the periphery, but did we fuck up cuba's shit recently like we did haiti's?
asking for a friend who's interested in buying some ratheon stock...
TIA
Quote:
Originally Posted by GambleBotsChafedPenis
northrop just got a cool B to build housing on the moon.
the mayor of miami has always come across as a buffoon, with this being no exception. And to absolutely no sane person’s surprise, he is a very VOCAL shitcoin bull.
Miami shore front properties be looking like PalestineQuote:
Originally Posted by Krypt
Nobody's perfect but would triple down on your options. You have little cognitionQuote:
Originally Posted by ftpjesusNo hard feelings. In fact it’s not much of a secret the Warhawks were indeed behind Kennedy’s assassination after he had a second chance to do their bidding and backed out on invading Cuba during the Missile Crisis as the brass all thought a Nuclear war was winneable and may have been given the US superiority and ability to strike rapidly and potentially decapitate the Soviets with only their bombers a threat really. Anyway when Kennedy balked on that (we were actually 24hrs of going in per my Dad who was a newly commissioned 2LT at Benning and we’re on alert to go). They decided he had to go. Kennedy also balked at going into replace the French who’d pulled out of Vietnam already seeing the quagmire for what it was way ahead of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanlmar
Take the over.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatineQuote:
Originally Posted by GambleBotsChafedPenis
northrop just got a cool B to build housing on the moon.
more like the gay of pigs
A lot of his constituents still have relatives in Cuba, guess they would just be collateral damage in the name of “freedom”.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
aaaaaaaaaaah northrop...forgot about that one...ill let my buddy know...tyty...Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatineQuote:
Originally Posted by GambleBotsChafedPenis
northrop just got a cool B to build housing on the moon.
Stukas Over Disneyland was 1983.Quote:
Originally Posted by GambleBotsChafedPenisaaaaaaaaaaah northrop...forgot about that one...ill let my buddy know...tyty...Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
I don’t need Sonatine to tell me who is building the planes in an age when Dmitry hits CTRL + ALT + D and Disneyland goes dark.
Gimme some Crowdstrike or what have you
well, here we go, rich Cuban Americans want the US to overthrow Cuban govt & install them...yeah, lets have American men get killed for the future profits/business interests of wealthy...if those rich guys want more lucre, let them hire & supply a private army rather than beggar the US...and you can bet any US equipment given in support will have a large amount diverted to the middle east for cash kept by the Miami Cubans;Quote:
Originally Posted by JayjamiA lot of his constituents still have relatives in Cuba, guess they would just be collateral damage in the name of “freedom”.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
glad to see the appeal to spread democracy isn't working, and undoubtedly the next scare tactic is to claim the US needs to go in to keep China out...lies we've heard before
Well, to stop the January 6th "insurrection" all the neoliberal elites had to do was murder one unarmed rioter and turn off Trump's twitter, and the Cuban government in contrast has brought in the military and turned off the internet. So based on their actions it seems the Cuban govt is a lot more worried about this than you are, or even our own Neoliberal elites are worried about the Trumpkin "insurrection".Quote:
Originally Posted by GrenadaRogerwell, here we go, rich Cuban Americans want the US to overthrow Cuban govt & install them...yeah, lets have American men get killed for the future profits/business interests of wealthy...if those rich guys want more lucre, let them hire & supply a private army rather than beggar the US...and you can bet any US equipment given in support will have a large amount diverted to the middle east for cash kept by the Miami Cubans;Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayjami
glad to see the appeal to spread democracy isn't working, and undoubtedly the next scare tactic is to claim the US needs to go in to keep China out...lies we've heard before
I've read this entire thread. Some/most of your discussion has been very thoughtful and impressive to me. If the decision were mine I would leave Cuba to the Cubans. All this violence and war has not been good for us. I can think of many examples of this country, our country, dropping bombs or engaging in outright invasions where the end result has been a net negative. We spent a decade or so in Viet Nam then left in shame, dropping our helicopters into the sea on the way out. We are doing the exact same thing in Afghanistan after 20 years, leaving in defeat, as I see it. And, the worst of them all, we invaded Iraq under false pretense in 2003 and there we also still remain. Our soldiers sitting as targets and surrounded by people who hate them and wanted them gone a generation ago. The Cuban regime is no threat whatsoever to our country. Surely, there must be better ideas to help the Cuban people than to start reigning bombs down on their country. We have, in my opinion, lost the high road in setting expectations for how other countries treat their own people. This is a matter for the Cubans to resolve and they should and I think they will.
cuba is the #1 exporter of pilfered american intelligence you absolute stone rube.Quote:
Originally Posted by country978
GrenadaRoger: adding the Cuban spying to the tenuous reasons range
might as well toss in their refusal to fork over whoever was responsible for the microwave attacks against american diplomats as well.
personally i find the american sanctions against both cuba and venezuela nauseating / irresponsible / predatory but im also not going to say with a straight face that cuba isnt an active, aggressive, and sophisticated hostile.
basically id prefer a reset here where both sides suspend antagonism, because there's literally no downside to it and it would likely result in the wholesale reduction of grief among the cuban population.
but because we are still making domino-theory decisions on foreign policy and are petrified of doing anything that might give actual political leftism in america a foothold, here we are.
I suspect you are suffering the effects of a vegan lunch. Salad?Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
I can’t imagine a more right wing & conservative population. Raise your small right hand, Little Marco, if you agree.
I, a product of the New Frontier and Great Society, honestly believed that the world pretty much owed me a living--all I had to do was wait around in order to live better than my parents. Easy game
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanlmarI suspect you are suffering the effects of a vegan lunch. Salad?Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
I can’t imagine a more right wing & conservative population. Raise your small right hand, Little Marco, if you agree.
I, a product of the New Frontier and Great Society, honestly believed that the world pretty much owed me a living--all I had to do was wait around in order to live better than my parents. Easy game
none of those rubes are orchestrating these policies unilaterally.
these policies are disgustingly bipartisan and probably are sourced deep within the military industrial complex -> rand research pipeline.
when was the last time you saw a democrat say 'maybe we should let venezuela have an actual economy so people can stop eating their fucking pets'?
the second anyone speaks out for the civilian impact of the vz / cuba sanctions, they are tarred and feathered as a far left socialist and largely cut off from democrat fundraising and support.
Understandably I haven’t been reading prior posts so maybe I didn’t merge into the conversation at sufficient speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatineQuote:
Originally Posted by Sanlmar
none of those rubes are orchestrating these policies unilaterally.
these policies are disgustingly bipartisan and probably are sourced deep within the military industrial complex -> rand research pipeline.
when was the last time you saw a democrat say 'maybe we should let venezuela have an actual economy so people can stop eating their fucking pets'?
the second anyone speaks out for the civilian impact of the vz / cuba sanctions, they are tarred and feathered as a far left socialist and largely cut off from democrat fundraising and support.
Although my comprehension of the above post is my typical 75-80% it now feels like we quite agree on the painful bipartisan failure.
Im feeling like Chinese for dinner.
Havana Syndrome? https://www.huffpost.com/entry/energ...b0a24c4f7d55a4Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
simple solution, wear tin foil hats, war averted.
The Cuban population is really the most hold a grudge population of all the had to grab their shit and flee immigrant movements we ever had. That group is always angry, but those Cubans are on a different level. They want people who are already dead strung up.
The problem is they’re really bipolar. Little Marco is the perfect rep
This is the exact expected positive outcome of an embargo. You want the population cut off and to uprise and kill their oppressors. I mean an embargo doesn’t ever stop the elite or leaders from getting shit. It stops the have nots. That’s the intended purpose.
So any talk of ending the embargo throws the Cubans in So Florida into a seizure. Yet most still have family or extended family there, routinely discuss stories of mom or dad in a secret prison, and want the US to help the people and continue the embargo all at once, which is pretty much impossible, and leads to mayors saying idiotic shit like this as the people aren’t strong enough to overthrow, or don’t have the will.
I laughed at Desantis taking a pass on the blocking traffic question the other day. That’s a favorite right wing red herring. They always get up in arms when our protestors block traffic and EMS vehicles. They asked Desantis and he fucking froze. Couldn’t condemn protestors, couldn’t defend behavior. All politicians are the same when the protestors family vote for them.
Situation has been a mess for 50 years now. We eased off on embargo, and then intensify again when republicans are in charge for south Florida Cubans, and Putin immediately is there with arms open calling for increased cooperation last two years.
Now here we are again doing the same old dance. This mayor is crazy, but not as crazy as our policy. This shit outlived the Castros. You either need to end this shit before there are missles off our coast again, or end the sanctions. The embargo without further intervention just causes misery. Pick a fucking side.
Gay of pigs indeed.