Ah, Leah! Obvious heads-up chip dump at WPT Fallsview allows Mike Leah to buy a title

Pretty absurd story today out of WPT Fallsview (Niagara Falls, Canada).

Mike Leah was playing heads up with Ryan Yu at the Main Event. First place was $C451k, second was $C301k.

Here's the way the hands went down:

Quote:

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Heads-Up Chip Counts
The players are taking an unscheduled break.

Ryan Yu - 10,800,000 (90 bb)
Mike Leah - 4,715,000 (39 bb)


Hand #94: Mike Leah Takes the Chip Lead

Ryan Yu raises to 4,000,000 from the button on the first hand of heads-up play, Mike Leah (pictured) reraises all in for 4,695,000 from the big blind, and Yu folds.

Mike Leah - 8,735,000
Ryan Yu - 6,780,000


Hand #95: Mike Leah

Mike Leah limps in from the button, and Ryan Yu raises to 5,000,000 from the big blind.

Leah reraises all in for 8,715,000 and Yu folds.

Mike Leah - 13,755,000
Ryan Yu - 1,760,000


Hand #96: Mike Leah

Ryan Yu raises to 1,700,000 from the button, and Mike Leah (pictured) pushes all in for 13,735,000 from the big blind.

Yu folds, and Leah captures this pot.

"When you're beat, you're beat!" says Yu.

Mike Leah - 15,475,000
Ryan Yu - 40,000

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At that point, with Yu severely crippled, they auto-all-inned for a few hands, and Leah won.

https://www.worldpokertour.com/event...8-2/#eventTab2

These were all of the hands played heads up. As soon as Tim Rutherford busted in 3rd place, Leah and Yu took an "unscheduled break", obviously discussed the chip dump, then came back and blatantly did so.

Note that Yu had more than a 2:1 chip lead when heads up play started, and intentionally dumped the title to Leah!

WPT does not allow players to make deals.

The event is not televised, so that part will not be an issue.

Clearly this chip dump was done for one purpose only. Mike Leah wanted the WPT Title, and perhaps the Player of the Year points.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4657/...f0ab3dda_c.jpg


Since it was heads up, what's the big deal?

Well, a few things...

First off, Mike is cheating others in the Player of the Year race, as he really only earned 2nd place in reality. At the very least, WPT should take away his 1st place points and replace them with 2nd place points, so other people aren't affected by this.

Second, it just looks awful. This was the Main Event. How could they not know this would be reported on, and would make poker look terrible?

Third, it affects the play prior to that. While it seems the deal was discussed after the 3rd place finisher busted, what if it was discussed earlier? Then we have two players who knew that they only needed to survive to heads-up, while everyone else thought they were playing to win it. That's actually a fairly big strategy change, and it's not fair that only two players may have been aware of that. It's not unreasonable to believe that Mike and Ryan may have discussed the possibility of this earlier, and simply took the break to discuss how it would be accomplished.

Finally, it's breaking the rules. You may not like the WPT rules of no dealmaking, but those are the rules they set. If you don't like it, don't play. You can't play it and then decide to make up your own rules to replace the ones you don't like.


What's interesting is the fact that neither apparently thought this was wrong (or would look bad), as they both did it so blatantly. Both players are tournament regulars, and could have easily engineered a much more believable-looking chip dump, where likely no one would have even noticed. Instead, they did it in obnoxiously ridiculous fashion, almost as to give a big middle finger to the WPT and its no-dealmaking rule.

Here's a picture of Ryan Yu:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4608/...a9e309a4_c.jpg


What do you guys think should happen to these two?

On a side note, this was likely not due to tax liabilities, as both players were Canadian. In Canada, only professional poker players are required to pay taxes on winnings, but most can massage the definition of "professional" and still pay no taxes on their wins. A good discussion of the Canadian poker tax situation is found in this article on Pokernews.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng52ogUCZqc

The WPT interview with Leah is hilarious, given what went down.

https://www.worldpokertour.com/event...8-2/#eventTab2

Quote:

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"It hasn't sunk in yet,” Leah said after winning. “Winning a WPT has been near the top of my goal list for a long time, especially getting so close almost exactly three years ago when I lost to Anthony Zinno heads up at LAPC, so I've been pretty hungry to get back here again since that.”

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On a side note, in 2006, I was personally at a final table where a title was bought.

Liz Lieu was relatively new to the poker scene, and wanted to take advantage of the poker boom in order to get sponsorships. However, despite appearing on TV at a WSOP final table in 2005, she still had not yet won a tournament, which was hurting her brand.

She ended up at a final table with me at the LA Poker Classic -- at a $1060 Limit Holdem event. Not the most prestigious event, but Liz desperately wanted any kind of win. The structure at that tournament was horrible, and everyone was short stacked when the final table began, making it a card catching contest.

I went out 8th.

Liz, however, made it to heads up with unknown San Jose area player Jason Heidema. However, Heidema held a 60%-40% chiplead, and Liz feared that the title would elude her once again.

She made a deal with Jason to be "awarded" first at that point, in exchange for Heidema getting larger prize money.

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/event.php?a=r&n=16307

1st Liz Lieu $40,453
2nd Jason Heidema $52,013

:lol

Cardplayer Magazine comedy writer Max Shapiro was working as a tournament reporter, and poker was so big at that point to where full time tournament reporters were hired for limit holdem events at the LAPC. (Hard to imagine, but true!)

Shapiro, a longtime veteran of the game, had never seen anything like this before, so he wrote up the full story as to what happened.

I checked later that evening to see who won, and was floored by the story of the person holding 40% of the chips heads up being declared the winner.

Additionally, I disliked Liz personally, as she had always been unjustifiably nasty and bitchy to me at the cash games at Commerce. Liz saw herself as one of the "hot chicks" of the game, and pretty much felt everyone else was beneath her. My first encounter with her involved her yelling at me when I was off on the side discussing a rake issue with a floorman -- something which had nothing to do with her, and wasn't holding up the game.

Anyway, suffice to say that I enjoyed bringing it to the public's attention regarding Liz's purchase of a title, and I did exactly that.

As soon as I did so, Liz panicked, contacted Max Shapiro, and browbeat him into modifying the story. In the new version, Liz claimed that she made the deal "for charity", so she could donate some of her winnings to poor people in her home country of Vietnam. Clearly this made no sense, as she was actually GIVING UP money to be crowned the winner, and also could have just as easily donated to the charity if she were named 2nd place finisher with the same money.

This made her look even more foolish, as I pointed out the story modification and the ludicrousness of her new claims.

She absolutely hated me after this, but I didn't care.

It took another year until Liz would finally get an actual tournament win.


More recently, William Kassouf bought an EPT title, and also got the points. However, this was through an official deal, and not a chip dump.

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/event.php?a=r&n=384120

1st England William Kassouf €532,500 $555,619 224.19
2nd Canada Patrick Serda €719,000 $750,216 185.65
3rd Denmark Tue Hansen €351,000 $366,239 164.15

Good post from 2+2, from a user named "likes":

Quote:

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Originally Posted by likes

Truth, honesty, ethics

These things are not complicated. They are not subject to interpretation.

He bought a place in history on a prestigious trophy. He bought a title. He bought a lifetime invitation to a winners only tournament. He did not earn these things.

Sure, the WPT ought to allow the chop. They also ought to have rules in place that when chopping, both players forfeit the $15k TOC entry (give it to charity), that the title will be declared vacant, and nobody's name will go on the trophy.

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Can't argue with any of that.

Here's the 2+2 thread, in case anyone cares: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...t-win-1704111/

So there was chip dumping between two people at a final table. I don’t think there’s any ethical concern here, every player enters a tournament for different reasons. If YU wanted guaranteed first place money (or more) where’s the problem with that? I would make the same trade all day.

BTW, some people have been speaking in Mike's defense, stating that this is the WPT's fault.

"If only the WPT allowed deals, this wouldn't happen," they're saying.

"Deals happen all the time in tournament poker, even when not specifically allowed," they're lecturing.

This is not about an under-the-table financial deal to prevent variance!

That I would understand, and in fact wouldn't even be criticizing.

The problem here is that Mike Leah was behind in chips by more than a 2:1 margin, and bought the WPT title at that point.

That has nothing to do with the WPT allowing or not allowing deals. This has to do with buying titles from behind, which should never be allowed, especially at a prestigious poker tournament such as the WPT.

Others have stated that this is "none of our business", provided that Mike and Ryan came to this agreement once they were heads up.

I also disagree. In addition to the aforementioned Player of the Year and Tournament of Champions implications, part of the allure of tournament poker comes from the titles.

There is a certain amount of pride players take in having major titles, such as WPT, EPT, WSOP, etc.

If you allow well-heeled players to buy those titles when behind in chips, the prestige of those titles goes away. It becomes a joke. There's no point to have tournament brands, titles, bracelets, or any of that, if you're going to allow players to buy titles.

I've also heard the excuse, "Well, it happens in local daily tournaments all the time, so why is it such a big deal here?"

That's because there's little-to-no prestige or recognition for winning a daily tournament, so it matters much less. Comparing the integrity of a daily tournament to the WPT is like comparing a sandlot softball league title to the baseball World Series. On the bigger stage, where winning is considered a large accomplishment, the standard of integrity needs to be higher and more enforced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drawingdead

So there was chip dumping between two people at a final table. I don’t think there’s any ethical concern here, every player enters a tournament for different reasons. If YU wanted guaranteed first place money (or more) where’s the problem with that? I would make the same trade all day.

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See the post above this one.

Regarding Yu, I blame him less, because it's tough to turn down a lot of money you're offered in exchange for dumping a title you don't care about. Sure, we can sit here on our high horse and claim we would have refused Leah's deal if offered, but the truth is that most poker players would have accepted it, and I realize that.

My bigger problem is with Leah. He paid money to buy a WPT Title when behind in chips.

If Leah were ahead in chips and bought that title at that point, that would still be wrong (for reasons already mentioned in the original post), but not nearly as bad, because at least such a deal would be equivalent to what happens at tournaments which allow deals.

The big problem here was that Leah was behind in chips by more than a 2:1 margin, and he used money to award himself a major poker title.

If this is allowed, all WPT poker titles essentially become garbage.

It's stuff like this that ruins poker in regards to someones future legacy.

Mike Leah is a really good player and overall good dude so it's sad to see him stick to this level.

People who do this don't deserve to make the poker hall of fame or certainly need astrisks by their accomplishments when people consider nominating them.

Money "cashed for" in poker these days has become a joke anyways with all of these high rollers, one drop events,etc.... These can be really tough fields but they are small just like a lot of the fields someone like Doyle Brunson won bracelets in.

Mike Leah is good enough with 39bbs to come back and win the event but this just looks bad. It's a form of lazy collusion/dumping to just get it over with.

At least if you make some private deal try to sell it dropping chips over a few hands or whatever where people can't suspect anything.

Simple answer is to assist in chops and make them play for like 10k or something. Otherwise people are going to make their own deals if it makes financial sense and it is hard for the WPT to do much about this. This is one thing that I give Stars credit for doing correctly over the years.

In my mind I don't think these bracelets and wpts etc... and any other tours are really that prestigious anymore because they are not as scarce as they once were.

For instance how many bracelets are given away at all wsop stops now compared to 15 years ago? Same with the wpts etc.... Some of the bigger events are more prestigious I guess but if my friend Don chung goes out and wins a 1500 nl for 500 k at Wsop yes great feat but it is just another one of of tourneys that run every year and it does not make the victory that notable.

It's like the baseball card boom. When I pulled an 87 Donruss Canseco from a pack I was the man and people I knew may have been giving me high 5s. Fast forward to the year 2000 and when I pull that same Canseco nobody gives a shit. Although the money from winning tournaments is very nice

Mike Leah is supposed to be making a post about this soon on the chop details. Looking forward to this.

Embedded Tweet

Embedded Tweet

Druff,

What would you do if you got HU and the CL offered icm chop and was willing to give you the trophy?

He made a preliminary statement on Allen Kessler's page, of all places:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Leah

I’ll respond in much more detail soon as I’m flying red-eye to Europe to play Party Poker Millions Main event tomorrow. BUT the words buy a title are very wrong - the title was negotiated but I did not give up a penny of equity. It was an even ICM chop based on chips with me being awarded the win.
We were forced to play it out after making the deal so we just tried to get it over as fast as possible while making very obvious a deal was made.
No talk of any deal was brought up by anybody until we got HU.

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Here is my response, which I posted in that same thread:

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Mike, thank you for responding so quickly, and I look forward to seeing your more detailed response later. However, I have a few questions for you.

1) If the goal was to just "get it overwith quickly" after you agreed to an under-the-table, ICM chop, why were the chips dumped TO you, if you were the notably shorter stack? Wouldn't it have made more sense for the shorter stack to dump to the larger one?

2) It seems clear to me that you wanted the title, despite having not earned it yet. (You clearly earned the right to play for it heads up, but were a dog at that point to win the title.) What were the reasons you wanted that title awarded to you, rather than chip leader Ryan Yu?

3) What do you think is fair regarding the TOC seat you won, as well as the POY points awarded for that "win"? Do you think you deserve 1st place points for this?

4) Would you be open to voluntarily having your POY points downgraded to 2nd place points?

I do want to state that I have no personal issue with you, and in fact don't really know you. I do feel that you're a great tournament player, and your reputation in poker has always been excellent.

I do not believe you did this with bad intentions, but unfortunately your actions adversely affected the POY race, and have somewhat cheapened the entire concept of winning a WPT title.

What's done is done, but hopefully there will be some fair resolution to this.

Twitter comments from Ryan Yu, his opponent:

Embedded Tweet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

He made a preliminary statement on Allen Kessler's page, of all places:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Leah

I’ll respond in much more detail soon as I’m flying red-eye to Europe to play Party Poker Millions Main event tomorrow. BUT the words buy a title are very wrong - the title was negotiated but I did not give up a penny of equity. It was an even ICM chop based on chips with me being awarded the win.
We were forced to play it out after making the deal so we just tried to get it over as fast as possible while making very obvious a deal was made.
No talk of any deal was brought up by anybody until we got HU.

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Here is my response, which I posted in that same thread:

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Mike, thank you for responding so quickly, and I look forward to seeing your more detailed response later. However, I have a few questions for you.

1) If the goal was to just "get it overwith quickly" after you agreed to an under-the-table, ICM chop, why were the chips dumped TO you, if you were the notably shorter stack? Wouldn't it have made more sense for the shorter stack to dump to the larger one?

2) It seems clear to me that you wanted the title, despite having not earned it yet. (You clearly earned the right to play for it heads up, but were a dog at that point to win the title.) What were the reasons you wanted that title awarded to you, rather than chip leader Ryan Yu?

3) What do you think is fair regarding the TOC seat you won, as well as the POY points awarded for that "win"? Do you think you deserve 1st place points for this?

4) Would you be open to voluntarily having your POY points downgraded to 2nd place points?

I do want to state that I have no personal issue with you, and in fact don't really know you. I do feel that you're a great tournament player, and your reputation in poker has always been excellent.

I do not believe you did this with bad intentions, but unfortunately your actions adversely affected the POY race, and have somewhat cheapened the entire concept of winning a WPT title.

What's done is done, but hopefully there will be some fair resolution to this.

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1. Because the kid who was top stack now gets a guaranteed payout based on ICM. If he does not agree to a deal then he risks losing the tourney and winning less money. My guess is he got exact ICM or something like that and leah gets the win. If he did not agree to that deal I bet leah says lets play then

Here is what I'm guessing happened:

(The below is all SPECULATION, and the conversations shown were made up in my head....)


They got heads up, and took an "unscheduled" break in order to discuss an under-the-table deal.

Ryan, who had more than a 2-to-1 chip lead, proposed some kind of chip-related chop.

Mike probably refused at first, stating, "I've really wanted a WPT Main Event title for a long time, and I'm afraid if we agree to an unofficial chop, it will change the way you play. I think my best chance to come back and win this thing is if we have all the money on the line."

Ryan replied, "Oh, I don't care about the title at all. Look, I really just want the equity for the chips I'm holding right now. I don't care about the points, the TOC seat, the title... that's all fairly meaningless to me. How about we just do a straight ICM chop (a chop based upon their respective stacks, equity-wise), and I'll just dump off my chips to you, so you can have the title?"

Mike answered, "Deal. But they don't allow chops here, so we technically have to finish it off."

Ryan replied, "Yeah, just keep re-raising me, and I'll fold every time until I'm crippled. This way everyone will know that this was something we agreed to, and we're not pulling anything shady. It will be obvious."

Mike responded, "Agreed. Okay, let's go do it."

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So Ryan got his guaranteed money based upon his much bigger stack, without having to worry about Mike coming back from his deficit and costing him a lot of money he could have otherwise locked up.

Mike got the title, the TOC seat, and the POY points. As far as he saw it, he was offered a sweetheart deal, and he took it.

Neither felt they did anything wrong.

Neither thought deeply about the implications -- the stain on the WPT title, the bad way this looks to recreational players, the other POY chasers, and the other people at the TOC event, who would likely rather play Ryan Yu than Mike Leah.

So while I doubt this was some sort of nasty conspiracy to do something dishonest, they ended up making a fairly big mistake and affecting a lot of people in the process.

They also blatantly violated WPT rules, though I wonder why WPT officials didn't step in and put a stop to this. Were some idiot floormen okay with this, even though it was clearly against the rules, and would hurt the brand?

Here is what I would recommend at this points:

- Mike is downgraded to 2nd place in POY points.

- Mike's TOC seat is revoked, and the $15k from the prize pool taken to pay for it remains in the TOC pool.

- Both players are warned that they will be banned from the WPT if they make any kind of unauthorized deal in the future.

- The tournament is considered to have two second place finishers and no winners. That is, Mike's WPT title here becomes invalid.

- WPT either modifies their dealmaking rules going forward, or they make it crystal clear to players that anyone caught making deals will be disqualified and banned.

So let it be written, so let it be done.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chinamaniac

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

He made a preliminary statement on Allen Kessler's page, of all places:



Here is my response, which I posted in that same thread:

-----

Mike, thank you for responding so quickly, and I look forward to seeing your more detailed response later. However, I have a few questions for you.

1) If the goal was to just "get it overwith quickly" after you agreed to an under-the-table, ICM chop, why were the chips dumped TO you, if you were the notably shorter stack? Wouldn't it have made more sense for the shorter stack to dump to the larger one?

2) It seems clear to me that you wanted the title, despite having not earned it yet. (You clearly earned the right to play for it heads up, but were a dog at that point to win the title.) What were the reasons you wanted that title awarded to you, rather than chip leader Ryan Yu?

3) What do you think is fair regarding the TOC seat you won, as well as the POY points awarded for that "win"? Do you think you deserve 1st place points for this?

4) Would you be open to voluntarily having your POY points downgraded to 2nd place points?

I do want to state that I have no personal issue with you, and in fact don't really know you. I do feel that you're a great tournament player, and your reputation in poker has always been excellent.

I do not believe you did this with bad intentions, but unfortunately your actions adversely affected the POY race, and have somewhat cheapened the entire concept of winning a WPT title.

What's done is done, but hopefully there will be some fair resolution to this.

---

1. Because the kid who was top stack now gets a guaranteed payout based on ICM. If he does not agree to a deal then he risks losing the tourney and winning less money. My guess is he got exact ICM or something like that and leah gets the win. If he did not agree to that deal I bet leah says lets play then

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I think I know the answer to most of these questions, and I agree with you regarding #1.

However, I want to read Mike's response to it.

Mike's official statement, as posted to his Facebook page:

Quote:

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Fallsview WPT:

Well it’s been an interesting day to say the least; can’t say I’ve ever experienced anything like this before. I have no issue whatsoever with people debating POY, TOC, deal making ethics, WPT rules and whatever else they so choose. The one thing that stings me is the words “buy a trophy/title” or something to that effect. I have never or will ever “pay” for a win but I’ll get into more detail about that later.
Not sure why I feel the need to defend myself but I feel my integrity is being attacked which doesn’t feel very good.

I’m extremely sleep deprived and its been about 10 years since I’ve had to form paragraphs so excuse my ramblings and grammatical errors…..

I’m going to focus mainly on my Heads-Up deal at Fallsview WPT Main Event as that’s what has obviously brought these issues into attack errr discussion.
I will post a follow up going back on my previous wins, chops, non-chops as not only does it seem many are curious; I too would like to review to see how I’ve made out over the years.

A quick background: My 1st 6 or 7 years playing poker I was in & out of some sort of backing deal so my deal making decisions weren’t always 100% my own. I’ve been playing exclusively on my own for about 3.5 years with no backing whatsoever since my million dollar score in 2014 (Which I had sold off a good portion of my action). I did not chop HU with Dan Coleman even though we were playing for about 400k – He hinted he would want more than ICM and my pride wasn’t ok with that; so we played for it all (He won).

I almost never sell action with the odd exception like the 50k PPC @WSOP; and just about never swap any %’s. I like to play for as much as possible; I enjoy the competition & like all the pressure being on myself. With that said; how do I feel about chopping – I don’t like it…..Being deep in a tournament; making the FT, playing short handed with huge money on the line; playing HU for a title there is no feeling I can compare to it – nothing I love more.

I’ve turned down more chops than most people; that I am sure – So why did I decide to chop this tournament and how did we go about it????

I wanted to win this tournament more than any other I can remember – I was messaging a friend early day 2 when I had 20 bb’s making plans for them to come back and watch the Final Table – I told them I was going to make it & win – This is not a normal occurrence for me – From 3 tables, to 2 tables, to the Final table I was focused on nothing else…..the word Chop or Deal was never brought up by myself or anyone else – And the way the chip distribution was; often myself with one of the bigger stacks and various short stacks I wouldn’t have even considered a deal as ICM gives more value to shorter stacks then I would ever want to give them in a deal.
After many up and downs I found myself HU with Ryan (We’re Facebook friends, friendly with each other, have a lot of friends in common, both big Toronto sports fans and we’ve ended up playing against each other quite a bit over the last couple years). I respect his game and genuinely like him but don’t know him very well personally. As soon as we were Heads-Up he mentioned something about talking deal(Can’t remember his exact words) I hadn’t considered making a deal until that exact moment; I believe my words were something like: “Well I wouldn’t consider any deal unless I got the win, trophy, etc….” I didn’t know how Ryan would respond and honestly didn’t care I would’ve been happy to play for it – HU for a WPT title; not much more exciting then that. But very quickly he responded that he’d be fine with that if we did even ICM.

Ummm ok so we’re going to do an even ICM deal – Sure I may be giving up some edge but its not like I play HU poker every day, week or even month….Wow I actually get to be responsible and not just “flip” for 150k and I get a WPT title, a spot in the Champions Club, entry into the TOC and my 4th Fallsview title in 5 years…..
How could I not agree to this?? Ryan and I went off the stage to discuss; they did not pause the clock but we didn’t mind as it seemed very likely we would come to an easy agreement of terms. We worked out all the exact details and breakdown – We added the 15k seat to 1st for the ICM breakdown; worked out how much I would have to give him (As I would have to sign for, get paid for 1st and then give him the difference. We even agreed how much we were going to tip to the dealers/staff.

We triple checked stacks, payouts and everything; they said we were going to have to play it out; Ryan & I figured the easiest/quickest way to get it over was just for him to raise fold large portions of his stack. We did this in an extremely obvious way, making a lot of jokes and having fun. We were both extremely happy with the outcome – Now looking back I see how it’s embarrassing/disappointing for the WPT, Reporting staff and even poker players/fans having ridiculous hand histories like that being posted on the website live updates and deciding the tournament that way. There has to be a better way to go about it. We were not trying to disrespect any parties involved but we were celebrating ours “wins” – and made a decision in our own best interests. We’ve both earned almost a million dollars at Fallsview over the last few years – incredible really….

One comment I read a few times is “they shouldn’t have made it so obvious”. In my mind that would be 1000% times worse; if we “schemed up a way for him to dump chips to me without anyone knowing”. That would feel like cheating/collusion and would be embarrassing for Ryan (Having to have to lose HU). The way we did it; we were both winners and we were being as forthcoming as we could.

There have been countless suggestions on how this can be improved in the future and I’m quite confident that from this there will be more discussion amongst the tours and hopefully improvement in the entire system.
I do agree that every “major” title should be played for and if that was the case then we would’ve played – People suggesting why didn’t we chop and leave something to play for or chop and play for the trophy/TOC – Those would not have been my terms – chop fairly and give me the win or we play. The fact that my opponent chooses to give me the win to lock up their equity is their choice. My reputation, my play at the table, my intimidation, my likability….whatever else that goes into their decision to give me more money or to give me the trophy that’s something that I have “earned” over time. Ryan also had his own motivations; some of which he has shared on twitter : @ineedsheet
I won’t speak for him but he seemed more then content & knowledgeable regarding the TOC and that he had put some thought into making a deal.

WPT POY: What should be done in deals: splits points amongst the chopping players whether even or by ICM. Sure this makes sense but WPT doesn’t facilitate deals so they can’t chop POY points either. Should I get somewhere between 1st & 2nd POY points yes but what about all the other deals that have happened already this year; past years and will continue to happen going forward. Penalize me because we didn’t try as hard to hide it? Either way it Ryan & I receive the same total amount of points and its not like either of us are in the running for POY. I have one previous small cash this season, maybe he even had more I’m not really sure but other than a contending player trying to “buy” points late in the season this is prob the least important part of the debate.

TOC: Again like the points, one of us was going to win a TOC entry for this year and the buy-in option for future years. It’s not like we found a way to sneak an extra player in or something……He opted for the cash now while I get the shot to try and win more or lose the 15k value in the TOC. Did I “earn” my way into the club, is the TOC diminished because we made a deal with 2 players left that decided who gets in…..I think this has been overblown – Sure in a perfect world we want every player in the TOC to win an event outright but that’s not a reality. Who knows how many “winners” this season and past seasons have made a deal to decide who “wins”. More than me that is 100% for sure.

It’s not like I’m a billionaire who bought his way into an exclusive club….I had to fight my way through a field of 517 players to the final 2 and earned enough respect from my opponent for them to make a deal that gives me the win and everything that goes with it WITHOUT me giving any extra money….Now I would feel somewhat differently if someone was to actually “buy” the win – If I had offered an extra 2k, 10k, 50k, 100k – where the line is I’m not so sure… Is it negotiating, it is “buying”. But that scenario does not and will never involve me – too much pride.

All of my online titles: 4 Ftops, 2 Wcoops, 2 Scoops, 1 Tcoop, 1 Uboc (lol)
All 5 of my wsop circuit rings,
My Wsop bracelet,
All won without a deal,
Some other wins were chopped,
Some of my “losses” were also chopped over the years,

If you want to pretend my results over the years are tarnished because I made a deal HU ok ; you’re free to your opinion….You have to get there before you can even consider making a deal and I get there more than you.

I’ve had numerous requests to do a podcast or interview to discuss the situation so will likely follow up with that in the coming days if anyone still cares; Happy Valentines Day

Mike

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https://www.facebook.com/mike.leah.9...47?pnref=story

A couple of comments here:

1) WPT does not run events, at least none of the ones I've seen in the US. They are a marketing organization that arranges deals with casinos to run events under their banner. They certainly negotiate the terms of those events to fit their brand, but it's mostly up to the locals to carry things out.

2) I 100% witnessed this same thing happen at a WSOP circuit main event a while back. They left the room for a long time as soon as they got heads up. When they sat back down one of them said "You're sure you don't want the ring?" The other guy said yes, then took 3 hands to dump his chips. Neither of them were as prominent as Leah and there was no rail to witness it so it wasn't news.

If you think this is a rare occurrence you're kidding yourself.

My reactions to Mike's statement:

- I do not believe this taints his other wins. I believe his claim that many of his other wins, including his WSOP bracelet, were made without deals. I also believe that he is an excellent tournament player who has rightfully earned his good reputation.

- I am very confused by his statement, "I wanted to win this tournament more than any other I can remember." If that's true, why didn't he play it out and rightfully win it? Does he consider it to be "winning" to get his large chipleading opponent to dump his entire stack off, and concede? I'm still wondering what Mike gained from this. He didn't gain much money (because it was an ICM chop), and he didn't gain prestige (his opponent, with a healthy lead, clearly forfeited it to him), so what did he gain?

- He claims that the POY (player of the year) points are inconsequential because he's unlikely to contend for it. Okay, if that's true, shouldn't he be totally fine with having his POY points downgraded to what was awarded for 2nd? It's odd that he is defending his POY points, yet at the same time saying it won't matter. It it doesn't matter, do the right thing and give them up!

- He claims that he should still get the TOC (tournament of champions) seat because "one of us was going to win the entry", and the $15k value of the seat was factored into the deal they made. He also stated that other "champions" have done the same. I reject all of these arguments. The terms of his deal are unimportant. Nobody is suggesting he give the TOC seat to Ryan Yu! However, the TOC seat is supposed to be awarded to the actual winner of the tournament. Mike was not the actual winner, because heads up play was corrupted by chip dumping. Thus, I feel the seat should be revoked, with its money left in the prize pool -- basically giving it to Mike but immediately disqualifying him. Otherwise, it establishes a terrible precedent where the "better" pro can buy his way into the TOC if he wants, even if way behind in chips. What about other people with TOC seats who did the same thing? If proven, they should also have their seats revoked.

- I agree with his statement that it was better that they made it obvious. It would have been much worse if they attempted to cover this up, and were caught. Clearly both Ryan and Mike felt they were doing nothing wrong, and thus they didn't attempt to hide what they were doing.

- I believe Mike that WPT officials were aware of this, but told them they had to "play it out". This was very irresponsible. The WPT officials should have refused his ludicrous plan, which tainted their brand AND broke their own rules. I'm assuming the "officials" in question were just locals, and were not WPT employees. I'm guessing that actual managers at the WPT are pissed about this.

- Mike states that he really did accomplish something tough by making it to heads up versus a field of 517 players at WPT Main Event. This is true, but he was still a bit short of winning a title. The Dodgers made it to Game 7 of the World Series in 2017, but they weren't getting that World Series trophy unless they won that final game. Nobody is dismissing Mike's accomplishment of making it to the final two in such a field. However, you cannot crown yourself champion after your opponent agrees to take a dive and throw away his large lead intentionally.


From all accounts, Mike is a great player and a good person. I don't think there was any intention to do anything wrong or evil here.

However, actions still have consequences.

Mike made a mistake here, and he shouldn't benefit from it.

His extra POY points should be removed (downgraded as if he finished 2nd), and his TOC seat should be revoked. He did not rightfully earn either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CardChucker

A couple of comments here:

1) WPT does not run events, at least none of the ones I've seen in the US. They are a marketing organization that arranges deals with casinos to run events under their banner. They certainly negotiate the terms of those events to fit their brand, but it's mostly up to the locals to carry things out.

2) I 100% witnessed this same thing happen at a WSOP circuit main event a while back. They left the room for a long time as soon as they got heads up. When they sat back down one of them said "You're sure you don't want the ring?" The other guy said yes, then took 3 hands to dump his chips. Neither of them were as prominent as Leah and there was no rail to witness it so it wasn't news.

If you think this is a rare occurrence you're kidding yourself.

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I'm sure this has happened before.

Just curious, in your example, was the dumper also the one with more chips? That's what made this one particularly egregious. Well, that plus the fact that it was a WPT Main Event.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

His extra POY points should be removed (downgraded as if he finished 2nd), and his TOC seat should be revoked. He did not rightfully earn either.

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Ok, what if he had a chiplead and won the tourney or was down 55 45 in chips and made a deal?

Where do you draw the line?

If a deal is made at any of these final tables then you think nobody should benefit from it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chinamaniac

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

His extra POY points should be removed (downgraded as if he finished 2nd), and his TOC seat should be revoked. He did not rightfully earn either.

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Ok, what if he had a chiplead and won the tourney or was down 55 45 in chips and made a deal?

Where do you draw the line?

If a deal is made at any of these final tables then you think nobody should benefit from it?

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WPT should make clear rules about dealmaking and aggressively enforce them. That was the first problem here.

But regarding your question, I feel that anyone who is BEHIND in chips should NEVER be awarded a title in any tournament.

If you are the chipleader, and if chopping is allowed by tournament rules, then I am fine with you being declared the winner. Otherwise no.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Just curious, in your example, was the dumper also the one with more chips? That's what made this one particularly egregious. Well, that plus the fact that it was a WPT Main Event.

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They were roughly equal.

How is it all of a sudden a surprise that people buy titles and championships? Have you not been around this game as long as I have Druff? How can you be so naive to think this is a one off? I am truly baffled by some of the people that are complaining about this.

For sure, it happens in different ways and most are less obvious than others. However, there are two things that guarantee a HUGE edge in acquiring championships and trophies in Poker and those are CASH & NOTORIETY. A combination of both will get you many "accomplishments". To call anything in poker "Prestigious" is delusional and or naive.

How about when 7 Germans enter a high roller with a field of 24 playing from the same bankroll?
How about Invitationals?
WSOP Rebuy events?
How about "famous" players having their tournament buy-ins paid for by sponsors?

Now, in order for there to be a crime there must be a victim. Tell me who the victim is? and don't say TOC/POY bs, the other players equity in those events do not change one fraction because of this..

I'd make the same deal as Ryan Yu if I was up against a player who I considered much better than me which is obviously the case here.

Maybe Yu knows he can't play the TOC under any circumstances & this is the only tournament he's entered that has POY points & doesn't give a flying fuck about that either but could sure use an extra 200K liquid even though he's clearly the underdog in his mind?

What's the winning % of someone with a 2 to 1 lead when heads up begins? What is it when the chip leader is clearly an amateur against a seasoned pro? Pretty sure I'm still an underdog to most pros even holding a 2 to 1 chip lead heads up & that's a fact.

Both made good deals &, regardless of what Druff says, the WPT can't go changing the fucking rules midstream because something that could have been totally predicted, given their "no deals" rules, happened.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hockey Guy

I'd make the same deal as Ryan Yu if I was up against a player who I considered much better than me which is obviously the case here.

Maybe Yu knows he can't play the TOC under any circumstances & this is the only tournament he's entered that has POY points & doesn't give a flying fuck about that either but could sure use an extra 200K liquid even though he's clearly the underdog in his mind?

What's the winning % of someone with a 2 to 1 lead when heads up begins? What is it when the chip leader is clearly an amateur against a seasoned pro? Pretty sure I'm still an underdog to most pros even holding a 2 to 1 chip lead heads up & that's a fact.

Both made good deals &, regardless of what Druff says, the WPT can't go changing the fucking rules midstream because something that could have been totally predicted, given their "no deals" rules, happened.

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I don't understand what you're trying to say here at the end.

I didn't say the WPT should change their rules midstream.

I said the WPT should enforce their existing rules regarding deals.

To me, this looks like the local tournament director at Fallsview didn't give a shit about upholding the WPT "no deals" rule, so he just let them make an under-the-table deal (as I'm sure he has allowed many times before at WPT events), and then had them "play it out" so the WPT brass would be satisfied. However, he didn't expect that the chips would jus be dumped off in this blatant fashion, and now everyone looks bad.

Someone on 2+2 alleged that "his buddy" also dumped off his chips to Mike Leah at a previous year's WPT Fallsview event heads up. It was supposedly at an $1100 buyin prelim event.

No proof of this was supplied, nor was the "buddy" named.

However, another look at Leah's statement has his four previous Fallsview wins NOT listed under "tournaments I didn't chop", so I'm assuming he probably chopped those, as well, and perhaps in similar fashion. Maybe he got away with it under the radar previously because they were prelim events, and no one was paying attention.

Who won the tournament? Leah did.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnysprinkles

How is it all of a sudden a surprise that people buy titles and championships? Have you not been around this game as long as I have Druff? How can you be so naive to think this is a one off? I am truly baffled by some of the people that are complaining about this.

For sure, it happens in different ways and most are less obvious than others. However, there are two things that guarantee a HUGE edge in acquiring championships and trophies in Poker and those are CASH & NOTORIETY. A combination of both will get you many "accomplishments". To call anything in poker "Prestigious" is delusional and or naive.

How about when 7 Germans enter a high roller with a field of 24 playing from the same bankroll?
How about Invitationals?
WSOP Rebuy events?
How about "famous" players having their tournament buy-ins paid for by sponsors?

Now, in order for there to be a crime there must be a victim. Tell me who the victim is? and don't say TOC/POY bs, the other players equity in those events do not change one fraction because of this..

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There wasn't a crime.

I don't feel Leah should be punished in any way, nor do I feel his money should be confiscated.

And yes, the "victims" here are the POY/TOC players, because they now have to compete with Mike Leah instead of Ryan Yu, and Mike is a bigger threat to them.

Even putting that part aside, he violated WPT rules, and he also made poker look horrible when amateurs read that on the WPT site. Even Mike admits the optics were terrible on this one.

I understand your points, but you're making something too complicated about something simple.

WPT rules do not allow for chip-dumping to attain first place.

Attaining first place comes with the benefits of extra POY points and a TOC seat, so this is likely part of the reason why they don't allow such things.

Mike and Ryan engaged in chip-dumping to manufacture a phony win for Mike, when in reality he had a 2.3:1 chip deficit, and was an underdog to win when heads up play began.

Simply put, it is never appropriate for a non-chip-leader to be crowned winner of an event, especially if it happens through chip dumping to circumvent tour rules.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnysprinkles

How is it all of a sudden a surprise that people buy titles and championships? Have you not been around this game as long as I have Druff? How can you be so naive to think this is a one off? I am truly baffled by some of the people that are complaining about this.

For sure, it happens in different ways and most are less obvious than others. However, there are two things that guarantee a HUGE edge in acquiring championships and trophies in Poker and those are CASH & NOTORIETY. A combination of both will get you many "accomplishments". To call anything in poker "Prestigious" is delusional and or naive.

How about when 7 Germans enter a high roller with a field of 24 playing from the same bankroll?
How about Invitationals?
WSOP Rebuy events?
How about "famous" players having their tournament buy-ins paid for by sponsors?

Now, in order for there to be a crime there must be a victim. Tell me who the victim is? and don't say TOC/POY bs, the other players equity in those events do not change one fraction because of this..

---

There wasn't a crime.

I don't feel Leah should be punished in any way, nor do I feel his money should be confiscated.

And yes, the "victims" here are the POY/TOC players, because they now have to compete with Mike Leah instead of Ryan Yu, and Mike is a bigger threat to them.

Even putting that part aside, he violated WPT rules, and he also made poker look horrible when amateurs read that on the WPT site. Even Mike admits the optics were terrible on this one.

I understand your points, but you're making something too complicated about something simple.

WPT rules do not allow for chip-dumping to attain first place.

Attaining first place comes with the benefits of extra POY points and a TOC seat, so this is likely part of the reason why they don't allow such things.

Mike and Ryan engaged in chip-dumping to manufacture a phony win for Mike, when in reality he had a 2.3:1 chip deficit, and was an underdog to win when heads up play began.

Simply put, it is never appropriate for a non-chip-leader to be crowned winner of an event, especially if it happens through chip dumping to circumvent tour rules.

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It's pathetic. Chopping is one thing this is ugly and sad

Of COURSE it’s a big deal for the TOC...both players have acknowledged that Leah is the better player...who do you think the TOC field wants to see in that field more Yu or Leah

Who knows how much of this goes on done a little less blatantly.

I had experiences with Leah a few years ago. I actually thought he was playing badly playing too many hands with a big stack in a satellite. Apparently he thought I was a weak-tight donk and was taking bullying a little far. He busted me out of a satellite hitting a 3-outer after being pot committed to call my shove. Then he hands me my mostly empty drink glass and says "throw this away on your way out". I threw the drink on his chest and left. Then the next tournament, he wins a pot from me and makes a separate stack of all the chips he won from me. Seemed like an aggressive jerk. If I was a fish, then why try to chase me out of the games.