So if you were observing the lobby tables in the past looking for spots or trying to bum hunt anyone in HU you no longer can do that.
Regs are gonna be pissed.
So if you were observing the lobby tables in the past looking for spots or trying to bum hunt anyone in HU you no longer can do that.
Regs are gonna be pissed.
Not being able to see the flop percentages at the tables is really going to kill games IMO.
People are complaining of lag with the new update, which also triggered a warning on my security software when I opened it. Also reports that software like Bovada Card Catcher and DriveHud not working.
LOL
^^^
Hopefully their will be a work around for Card Catcher and DriveHud but Ignition is probably happy because they never wanted people to use these programs in the first place. The problem is we don't have table names anymore which these programs rely on to get data. I don't know if they can fix this unless they tell people they can only make the HUD work with one cash table not repeating player #s when it grabs data.
As for the flop percentages and average pot size I never thought it was accurately provide on Ignition in the first place. It's always been annoying not to see the tables and trying to grab a seat can be a problem to.
A big problem this network will face is recs don't start tables or play much short handed so the games are less likely to fill up. This won't hurt HU tables because people either play or refuse to. It could help the zone pools a bit imo. It will kill some limit holdem and O8 action if I had to guess.
This is just another nail in the coffin for this network which has been decreasing in traffic for a while now. A lot of MTTs are getting cancelled as well not meeting the minimum entrants at the start and the prize pool guarantees have been decreasing too.
These sites are getting so greedy to a point where they don't want to have any winners but without some the games won't run enough. When these smaller networks see PokerStars making all the changes they have to stick it to anyone who wins then I can only imagine what poker will look like online in another year or two.
god this is such shit...
I would understand this move if it was still bovada, but it seems like ignition was supposed to be a poker network more or less...are they really trying to up the run on their slots/tables on ignition? I mean that's the only thing that would explain this...recs cant bet sports on ignition so its not like they're trying to protect the reg pool so they can bet on sports..
THE BEST THING TO HAPPEN TO ONLINE POKER..
I WISH I COULD DEPOSIT RIGHT NOW!!!
PLEASE COME TO NEW YORK, JUST PLEASE!!
Wow... as if the games on Ignition weren't already bad enough.
Bad in what way????
A fair poker game were an individual isn't gang banged, hood winked, set up, angle shot, or isn't playing against a bum hunter with seat scripters and programs..
Bad in what way??
Its just a couple of people sitting down to play a "fair" game of poker..
Oh!!!!
I get it..
Stealing lollipop,s from a baby makes me a "pro".. but walking into the ring to play a good game of poker us "not fair"
I really believe that some sites are just taking money under the "pretense" of playing a fair game of poker..
At least when I stick up drunk Mexicans im not calling myself a "professional" thief lol.. just a scumbag..
The way you guys play online poker is the same thing but you guys call yourself "pros".
Not referring to you DRUFF.. I think you get what im trying to poorly express.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesparten
Oh thesparten I don't mind you man like some others on here don't like you but I can rip this apart and might when I have some more time to do it. I get you are the rec player but the way Ignition is going about certain things is wrong. They already increased the rake in the last few months too which is a negative thing for ALL players.
For now all I will say is if you think the Bodog/Ignition network is doing this solely to cater to a beginner/rec/novice type of player think again because EVERYTHING they do they feel will make them the most profit.
Some ideas sites have aren't bad but they incorporate them in the wrong way and this is one classic example of it.
I tried to sit several tables today at various games and found myself being the only player at the table (NL/PLO/Limit O8) at various buyin levels just to see and was three players deep max to start most games with the exception of stuff like NL25 so it's already killing games because when I sit first then wait 3 minutes and leave they get nothing. No games running = no money for the site regardless if they want a dream scenario of all recs battling it out.
Lets see where this goes in a few months. Party Poker tried to put players in certain groups based on skill set that they determined years back and it was a huge fail so maybe this will be too.
We got PokerStars to blame for a lot of this. When the biggest site raises rake and give the middle finger to regulars the rest who were already dying to do this will do it even more regardless of where the players are located. Ignition also realizes they are a top 2 site serving Americans and unless you want to grind it out with rakeback pros on the Winning Poker Network they are your only good option.
BnP,
It looks like you have 2 companies focused on 2 different markets. Winning gives you the pro, rake back, HUD option and Ignition the noob/rec option.
How can you begrudge this? Let them hammer it out heads up. Where will you end up? Sounds like you still lean toward Ignition.
That is the way it was for a few years now with these two companies and it worked alright I suppose for what it is but now it's like Bodog/Ignition is completely clearing house trying to give up on poker altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanlmar
The noobs/recs alone won't keep enough games running because they don't start them and aren't going to play 3 and 4 handed that much so with no rake coming in what does that mean for the poker site? Some of these players that are left after the move to Ignition (traffic was dying before and has got worse every month) aren't on the network for 90% virtual casino play and 10% poker but it might have been 85% sports betting and 15% poker/casino when the sportsbook was hooked up to their accounts in the Bovada era.
Another problem is if all the people that do/did crush the cash games on Ignition go play on WPN do you think that makes games on that network that are already very reg infested any better? This latest change from Bodog/Ignition could make the games tougher over on WPN as well or it just means less people playing the game online in general which isn't good in a market that is declining little by little due to country regulations and more greed by the sites.
So besides these two networks we got Carbon (who kicked off a lot of big winners and continues to do it), Intertops, and BetOnline left.
Oh yeah lets not forget about SWC too lol
Perhaps a network would rather you bet sports or play virtual casino games but can't they just be happy running tons of tables taking $200 in rake off the bigger ones per hour?
Interesting you mentioned BetOnline as an example of a poker option.
Don't know how much of this is Brent Beckley but I noticed a lot of changes recently with the casino & poker. The non sports stuff.
Just noticed they beefed up the mobile casino look & now have mobile poker.
I try to avoid it, of course, but I have killed time waiting in airports and stuff fooling around with poker. It runs very smooth.
Astonishing Winning never went mobile.
Lol bro you have 0 clue about making money. It was obvious in your "I know better" restaurant thread. You really really don't know shit about poker.Quote:
Originally Posted by thesparten
Professional means you do it to make money. Thats pretty much it. There is not much more about it. You fail at that, so learn you spot and STFU.
You fail at understanding these things, but don't hate the pros for doing what they do. Yes they want the policies in their favor, but thats what any "pro" would do.
"Not referring to you Druff". Druff has been a game selection nit for years. Thats what pros do. Doh.
No doubt you are making money hoodwinking people..
These poker sites have become a product of taking people's money under the pretense of playing a fair game of poker..
I for one who is an enthusiast of poker and self characterized competent rec player(with reference,s) absolutely see it this way..
I enjoy the entertainment and the occasional withdrawal but it would kind of suck if it just stays like a tourist trap.. yea that's poker , lol
It's like playing "Stratego" or "risk" knowing most of the cards.. what's the challenge or fun of playing those games and I actually think it's cheating..
So go around bum hunting, go use seat scripters and all the analytical 3rd party software and wait for recs to deposit..
Just excuse the rest of us for questioning that playing environment...
The game is better without you AND THATS WERE ITS GOING AND WILL BE....
I barely play online anymore. This post is far more reasoned than the previous one.Quote:
Originally Posted by thesparten
I'd just like to point out that even in "real poker" live etc, you can see who you are playing before you sit down.
The tables were anonymous before this change.
I agree with the things you say, but your vision of what a pro is was waaay off.
Like pros are supposed to sit around in house raked games where 8/10 players are losers and the other 2 are barely winners due to the house. Thats not how it works. Doesn't work like that live. Doesn't work like that online.
I liked the way ignition had it before. The big databases of players need to go.
Thanks for at least validating some of my rant..
I would join ignition if I could (new York).. to be honest I like what they have done but I guess it's just a matter of degree..
I actually agree with some of your response..
To manually search tables and sit were you feel comfortable is fine but.
All this sitting out and stuff, then sitting in, plus all all the programs ECT just take away from the game..
If that's the environment that they are allowing and one must follow it to survive is just "dirty"..I for one don't find that enjoyable..
It seems to me it's just hoodwinking people under the pretense of playing poker.
I've actually been playing global poker for the past couple of days and "it's OK?!?"(so far)..
I've been playing a.c.r. for years.
Would I prefer to be on a.c.r. .. yes!
But it's just become a "tourist trap"...
P.s..
I define "Pro" a little differently. Not just a guy that only sits down and makes profit with first time depositor,s and noobs.....but I do understand im in the minority on that one..
I enjoy challenging people of "equal" talent or slightly better and seeing how I stack up...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesparten
This same thing happens in live games too. It is just that people can't get up and go watch TV within seconds of the fish leaving. Games break and build around players all the time. Is there really much of a difference?
Maybe since poker of all sorts is declining so rapidly, it should be changed..
P.s.. and ignition seem to think so also..
Maybe they should do the same thing live.. just pick your blind level and they sit you at the next seat available at that level..
I've NEVER played cash live but I would if it were like that.
Maybe it's time we up the mentality of poker and ditch the angle shooters and bum hunters
Poker should be a game of a little bit luck and a little bit skill.. not who is the grimiest schiester..
Maybe it's time it EVOLVED.
It is very naive to think that people should sit around paying $20 an hour to play poker in a game where they know they can't win. That's not what any "pro" would do.Quote:
Originally Posted by thesparten
Your view of the world would work if rake adjusted according to how many bad players the casino brought to the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesparten
I don't even think you play poker.
So basically it's not online poker if it doesn't provide a "tourist trap" environment for the regulars..
If you can't make $ without gangbanging newbie,s maybe you should just leave and allow everyone else to have there fun...
Oh wait a minute.
P.s. and ignition are already doing that..
The days of you guys in collusion with the site,s to be force fed recs money under the pretense of playing a fair game of poker are over! OR u think u should pay a smaller percentage of rake then everyone else is over..
Whether you play one hand or k,s of hands. the rake should be the same..
P.S. AND IGNITION GET MEGA KUDOS FOR ABSOLUTELY GOING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
I think with this update LHE is officially dead online, and it's pretty much dead live. RIP
Only for those who don't want an honest fair game.
Good riddance:)
If you care about the viability of poker like most of you claim too..
We're all better off if the sites emulate ignition..
I know you rationalize and try very hard to explain how the sites are better with you bum hunting, angle shooting, seat scripters , rake back bonus whores... Lol lol
Yea, I want to go play a game so I have to go select 3 different things just to sit at an empty table. Ok, so that table is empty.. Damn, that sucks. So let me try a different game and see if MAYBE others are playing.. Well, no, no one is playing. Oh lets try it a third time. Oh wait, I don't want to play headsup, just like 99% of the players who play live real poker!Quote:
Originally Posted by thesparten
This is total fail. I can't imagine them ever getting games off with full tables anymore. People who hate to play short are never going to go through this ordeal.
So I tried it and fuck that, I'm cashing out. Debit card arrived today. We will be awash in $20s shortly.
So I've been off Ignition for a little while.
How dead are the games?
Are there any 20-40 or 30-60 LHE games anymore, or is that just totally dead? What about 10-20 or higher O8?
Ohhhh, poor baby..Quote:
Originally Posted by donkdowndonediedYea, I want to go play a game so I have to go select 3 different things just to sit at an empty table. Ok, so that table is empty.. Damn, that sucks. So let me try a different game and see if MAYBE others are playing.. Well, no, no one is playing. Oh lets try it a third time. Oh wait, I don't want to play headsup, just like 99% of the players who play live real poker!Quote:
Originally Posted by thesparten
This is total fail. I can't imagine them ever getting games off with full tables anymore. People who hate to play short are never going to go through this ordeal.
So I tried it and fuck that, I'm cashing out. Debit card arrived today. We will be awash in $20s shortly.
The self importance of nit grinders, HUD using, seat scripting , angle shooting hucksters is lost on everybody , even the sites themselves..
Your self importance to the game is amazing..
No body wants you guys around.
Just sit and play poker like everyone else, dik.
If it's not a "set up" against the fish, you guys cry.lol...
Tsk tsk tsk.. taking money under the pretense of playing a fair game of poker are over..
Why don't you set up a three card Monty milk crate on times square.. it's basically the same thing you want sites to set up for you or we will all be denied your great presence at the tables..
Why don't you just Protest micro aggression,s at Berkeley. It's a better use if your time now that your not playing on line anymore..
I thought the pretense of a fair game of poker WAS to take money. That's the whole point, isn't it? I don't think HUDs, scripts etc are unfair granted that everybody who wants to use them can. I do think they are detrimental to the poker economy and I wouldn't mind them being banned by the major sites.Quote:
Originally Posted by thesparten
But that's not what Ignition has done. They've removed the ability to see what games are actually running at any time. If the idea is to replicate an irl poker room, they've missed the boat. You can walk into a poker room and see who is playing and where they are playing. You can see what games are running etc. This is just stupid.
And the seating algorithm is garbage, so they couldn't even get that right.
I've been playing a bit on BetOnline which has the best software among US sites, IMO. But damn, poker ain't what it used to be.
Pretty much dead. And the highest NL I ever saw running is maybe 5/10 during peak times....but even then the majority of tables were just 1/2 NL and below.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
How do you see what's running? Do you just try to sit and see what happens?Quote:
Originally Posted by ShizzmoneyPretty much dead. And the highest NL I ever saw running is maybe 5/10 during peak times....but even then the majority of tables were just 1/2 NL and below.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
That is all you can do at this point. At lot of games I've sat I'm the only player at the table so I leave and you can bet recs will do the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan DruffHow do you see what's running? Do you just try to sit and see what happens?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shizzmoney
I read the 2+2 thread and saw a few 30/60 guysl(Schneids and bicyclekick) talking about those games never running. Perhaps on weekends I could see them going but maybe not even then.
As I said earlier thesparten and will again if no games run because something kills all the action it means any idea that might sound great on the surface is really awful. No games = no poker for all of us. I know you are all for the rec model which Ignition already had that going for them with anonymous tables but with this new change it has killed all the action for every player.
It is unfair, otherwise why would it be detrimental to the poker economy..Quote:
Originally Posted by BlunderMakerI thought the pretense of a fair game of poker WAS to take money. That's the whole point, isn't it? I don't think HUDs, scripts etc are unfair granted that everybody who wants to use them can. I do think they are detrimental to the poker economy and I wouldn't mind them being banned by the major sites.Quote:
Originally Posted by thesparten
But that's not what Ignition has done. They've removed the ability to see what games are actually running at any time. If the idea is to replicate an irl poker room, they've missed the boat. You can walk into a poker room and see who is playing and where they are playing. You can see what games are running etc. This is just stupid.
And the seating algorithm is garbage, so they couldn't even get that right.
I've been playing a bit on BetOnline which has the best software among US sites, IMO. But damn, poker ain't what it used to be.
Your are technically correct that it's fair couse everyone can do it BUT,, we know what it really is about..
As far as tables not being able to start is worrisome and I will yield to BEER AND POKERS post on that one with one caveat..
Even though table traffic is down and thete "collecting" less rake, there are much much fewer people cashing out.
It's just "now" a whole bunch of players pushing pots back and fourth..
The recs are actually having fun.
Who cares about the 24 nit grinding tabler with all his 3rd Party programs, playing all day in his dirty boxers..all of them complaining. Who cares about those grimy ass motherfuckers..
JUST SIT AT A FUCKEN TABLE AND PLAY A GOOD CLEAN FUN GAME OF POKER.. YOU BUM HUNTING WHITE TRASH ASSHOLE S.
It's not going to get any better for you guys, but worse. The trend will unapologetically continue..
Yes, and I've also been doing some intel from 2p2 like BeerandPoker said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan DruffHow do you see what's running? Do you just try to sit and see what happens?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shizzmoney
I will say, this stuff was happening *BEFORE* they eliminated the ability to rail and see tables. Now it will get worse IMO
Do you think they purposely killed their cash games? I feel like they have very smart people working for them, and maybe they knew this would happen, and did it for a reason?
Anything is possible but I just don't get why.Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofKs
Let's assume they have 100 tables running and take $100 average per hour off each (micros way less and some probably north of $200/hr but it was also many more tables before) that is 10k an hour, 240k a day in cash games alone.
How much does a site need to make to be satisfied?
Of course some players are going to win in the process it's part of doing business in this auto pilot revenue stream and if the business is there they should be happy to cash people out because it means they are making money.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHF_hYi-5vI
No. If they wanted to kill the games, they'd take them off the site entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofKs
They want to control the volume, and discourage regs from the site as much as they can. Of course, knowing the regs (and the operator knowing the regs), it won't deter every degen in world from still playing. The site knows that there will be people everyday who will want to start games, who will slog through the work of multi-table sessions. Bovada/Ignition just wants it more on *their* terms (i.e. Stars killing HU games).
Like most poker sites post boom, rather than invest in the players and marketing and worry about uber profits later, operations like Bovada have become ruthless businesses first. They see that they must invest in what the future will be, be it online casino gaming, bingo, fantasy sports, hearthstone, or other whatever fucking stupid mind dumb game that is more chance oriented than poker because of the costs associated with operating a poker room, as well as the type of customer that poker players are (tend to be more "edge" focused, i.e. bonus whoring, bum hunting, sharp sports betting, etc).
Bovada knows people make a living off their site; they, like Stars, don't really want that.
And yes, its an online poker room so its not *that* much to operate (and btc has made withdrawing easier).....but the point of a business is to cut costs where you can to ensure quarterly profit, and Bovada ensures more of that profit by discouraging withdrawals from "net" winning players. By deterring regs, they will be able to keep a greater slice of their profits.
Nowadays, the only loyalty is to the “bottom line” and by doing this action, Bovada/Ignition is basically hoping that some of the regs (who would take the fish's stack and then withdraw from the site) go away, that the fish migrate into +EV games for the business as a whole (because they know those ppl are more likely to deposit and play other stuff, like the pits), with the knowledge they can still make enough money and profit off of the "skeleton" poker site that eventually remains.
Shizz is most likely correct.
Bodog/Bovada/Ignition has slowly been pushing out the pros from their site.
First they killed rakeback deals.
Then they started tailoring bonuses specifically to losing players, offering little to nothing to winning players.
Then they went to anonymous tables (to stop bumhunting and data mining).
This year they've clamped down hard on both casino bonus whores and sports edge multiaccounters.
Now they're controlling the seating.
They WANT the pros to get frustrated and leave.
Is it killing the games? Yes.
But they don't seem to care. I think they are tired of the fish getting so badly crushed that they don't even have time to rake back the expense of processing their deposits (and subsequent cashouts for the pro).
Shizzmoney put it best: They want you playing on their terms.
It's very possible that their algorithm seats losing players together and winning players at a different table (or alone), whenever possible. They may even have algorithms analyzing VPIP and other stats, so they can still identify good players who happen to be losing at the moment due to either runbad or poor game selection (thus still sitting them with winners).
Unfortunately, the era of winning on the Bodog network may be over for the most part.
The only thing I play now is MTTs on Ignition (I've been an MTT reg on the Bovada network since 2010), and guarantees have been consistently slashed by upwards to 40-60% over the past few years (and during the middle of the week, it's not common to *still* see an overlay). the $200 on Sunday used to be a $200k guarantee; now it's a $150k, for example.
Runner counts for the early evening dailies, the bi-monthly "Mad Monday/Wednesday" series, and the Sunday specials are still quite high, mostly due to those alluring guarantees still existing and also allowing Bodog players from countries like France and Brazil to be a part of the overall player pool. I haven't played with as much volume however as I did say, in 2015 (where I played a ton of cash because the games were phenomenal), just because Bovada also cut out a lot of tournaments I used to play.
While player pools are still quite large I'd say we've seen a drop of about 15-25% of the player pools before the migration (the biggest punter counts were during the summer and fall in 2015, IMO) away from the main site just because of the fact that sports betting (fish) players, who are also the type of demo to play a tournament, can't immediately take the $100 they won in a parlay to the poker GUI, with the same account. This "inconvenience" has eroded games, which was the intended affect for sure but not just because for the business money making side of it, but also because Bovada doesn't want to get *too* big despite the lure of uber profits (like Stars and Party back in 2006) and have more scrutiny on them by law enforcement in both US and Quebec that they already have enough of, as it is.
haven't noticed this yet at the PLO8 tables...i've played with a ton of dogshit players since the new update...however PLO8 is such a niche game that they may not be able to do this sorta segregation or they would have no games at all...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
If nit, angle shooting , rake back, bum hunting, constant complaining grinders were good for a site, obviously!! The sites would want them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShizzmoneyNo. If they wanted to kill the games, they'd take them off the site entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofKs
They want to control the volume, and discourage regs from the site as much as they can. Of course, knowing the regs (and the operator knowing the regs), it won't deter every degen in world from still playing. The site knows that there will be people everyday who will want to start games, who will slog through the work of multi-table sessions. Bovada/Ignition just wants it more on *their* terms (i.e. Stars killing HU games).
Like most poker sites post boom, rather than invest in the players and marketing and worry about uber profits later, operations like Bovada have become ruthless businesses first. They see that they must invest in what the future will be, be it online casino gaming, bingo, fantasy sports, hearthstone, or other whatever fucking stupid mind dumb game that is more chance oriented than poker because of the costs associated with operating a poker room, as well as the type of customer that poker players are (tend to be more "edge" focused, i.e. bonus whoring, bum hunting, sharp sports betting, etc).
Bovada knows people make a living off their site; they, like Stars, don't really want that.
And yes, its an online poker room so its not *that* much to operate (and btc has made withdrawing easier).....but the point of a business is to cut costs where you can to ensure quarterly profit, and Bovada ensures more of that profit by discouraging withdrawals from "net" winning players. By deterring regs, they will be able to keep a greater slice of their profits.
Nowadays, the only loyalty is to the “bottom line” and by doing this action, Bovada/Ignition is basically hoping that some of the regs (who would take the fish's stack and then withdraw from the site) go away, that the fish migrate into +EV games for the business as a whole (because they know those ppl are more likely to deposit and play other stuff, like the pits), with the knowledge they can still make enough money and profit off of the "skeleton" poker site that eventually remains.
I agree with most of this post...
I always laugh when "said" grinders always try to convince everyone how good "they" are for the site..lol
thesparten: Good post , ignition doing the right thing
this pos ^ is maybe the biggest fucking retard I have ever encountered on the net.
All kidding aside I really hope you die of a crack overdose you worthless fucking n-word
fuck you faggot
yeah their main focus are the hold em games. And maybe PLO high.Quote:
Originally Posted by GambleBotsChafedPenishaven't noticed this yet at the PLO8 tables...i've played with a ton of dogshit players since the new update...however PLO8 is such a niche game that they may not be able to do this sorta segregation or they would have no games at all...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff