Printable View
I've been actively playing limit hold 'em nearly every day for the past 11+ years.
It's limit hold 'em that I have to thank for the fact that I haven't held a regular job since 2003.
If you'd like to ask me limit hold 'em questions, or post hand histories to analyze your play, do it here.
I'll post some basic strategy tips for limit hold 'em shortly, but this thread can be used for questions and answers.
Hey Druff,
I was playing in a WSOPc HORSE tournament a few weeks ago and Limit Holdem is without question my weakest of the 5 games.
This hand came up and I missed value, but im just curious how much value i missed..
Me KK on the button...
Heads up it went to 5 bets preflop
flop - Axx rainbow..
My opponent check called my flop bet.
He checked the turn and I checked behind and the same on the river.
I know I lost at least one street of value on the river, but am I also suppose to bet the turn in that spot?
My opponent had QQ BTW
Don't beat yourself up about the turn. If he had AK or AA and check-raised your value bet on the turn, you would have felt stupid all night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasep
Tournaments are a different situation, because you can't reload. Preserving chips is sometimes more important than getting extra value. This is not to say you should play super-scared in tournaments, but know that sometimes it's better to keep pots smaller in marginal situations -- especially ones where you're not likely to get sucked out upon.
However, you should have bet the river. Only a small percentage of players would check out of position BOTH streets like that if they held better than KK. Once he checked the river, you definitely should have bet.
If it's the type of player who you think can bluff-raise the turn, you're right to check behind there. If it's one who would only check-raise the turn with the ace (or better), I would bet the turn and fold to a check-raise. The fact that it went 5 bets means that he's unlikely to have just a weak ace that he's calling down. If the hand only went 3 bets, you would be smart to check the turn, because he could also be calling down a weaker ace.
how much money did you have when you turned pro?
I don't want to give exact numbers, but I already had a 6-figure bankroll primarily due to being a cheap Jew and saving my money over the years.Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnDew
Remember, I didn't start playing professionally until 2003. At that point, I was already 31 years old, and had a good career going for 8 years.
This made it a lot less stressful to move up in limits (which I still did rather slowly), because I wasn't gambling my bottom dollar if I ran bad.
Hey Druff,
I am just a hobbyist. I started with Small Stakes Hold'Em, playing $0.50/1 online and up to $4/8 limit live. Then I switched to no limit where my usual game is $2/5 NL (although I don't really get to play that often).
I've been interested in trying $10/20 limit. I usally play at Foxwoods or Borgata. so the game usually runs. Does that kind of game run like a typical Small Stakes Hold'Em game? Or at places like Foxwoods or Borgata, is it filled with nitty regulars?
I've heard your old radio shows where you use an isolating style. I've never really played that way, and would prefer a straight-up small stakes hold'em game. Do you think it would work at East Coast $10/20 limit?
How much of a difference does it make if higher games are running or not running? $10/20 sometimes will be the highest game going. Would the $10/20 be much better when $20/40 is running?
Thanks,
-Tom
Quote:
Originally Posted by jively
The highest game running in any poker room is usually considerably tougher than the 2nd-highest game (of the same type).
This goes along with my earlier-posted statement that most poker players play one level too high for where they really belong.
So, yes, if you play $10/$20, I would try to play on nights when the $20/$40 is also going.
You refer to my "isolating style", but you don't have to play that way. You can also stick to a tight-aggressive style, which will also work. Just don't get caught up in the limper's mentality that frequently takes place in those games.
Like, it's fine to limp if you have a suited-connector type hand and you have a few limpers in front of you, but don't get into the mindset where you're just generally going to limp along with everyone else unless you have a premium hand.
I can't answer about the regulars in those east coast games, as I don't live on that side of the country.
Hey Druff –
Thanks for taking the time to do this.
I’m a recreational losing to break-even low-limit player (3/6 and 4/8). I make money when the game is populated with drunks and degenerates, but lose when the most of the players at the table are tight and/or semi component.
What I notice is that when the tables are tight and/or populated with semi component players, it’s not always that I’m losing big to them, it is that the rake (10%, max of $4 plus $1 jackpot) is making everybody lose. Many nights it seems to me at least that no one at the table is 10% (plus a dollar tip for every winning hand) better than anybody else.
Your thoughts on jumping to 8/16 with the hopes the lower rake as a percentage of the pot will help tilt the scales to slight winner/break even? Or if I can’t beat 4/8 – even with the rake – am I kidding myself?
What is the smallest limit where the rake can be beat? I assume it's different for online vs live.
Multiple factors would need to be defined to give a 100% precise answer...Quote:
Originally Posted by limp donk bingo
If you're talking live the lowest I'd imagine would be a 4-8 game, even then you'd probably be beating the game for peanuts after the drop+toke's. Online is a lot different getting rakeback and not having to tip will save you boatloads long term. I'd imagine you could beat some really small stakes online but then again why would you even bother? Do you really want to beat the 25c-50c game for a bet or two? lol
Yes, move out of $4/$8 if you want to beat the rake. That rake you described is brutal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Call_Station
If you are a decent limit player, you should be able to handle live $8/$16.
Just remember never to open-limp, and to play your made hands aggressively (but learn to slow down when getting raised by the super-straightforward types).
Live 10-20 at the Borgata. Not above my bankroll, but I've been having trouble winning here, consistently at least. Players seem to pick their spots for targeted aggression, and except for some preflop isolation raises/re-raises, nobody seems to be getting too out of line.
(I'm not seeing any suit icons, so pardon me for the format below)
8 handed...
Preflop: Hero is BB with 6h, 5d
UTG calls, 3 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls
Flop: 2c, 3s, 5h (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, CO calls
Turn: Ah (2 players)
Hero check, CO bet, Hero calls
River: Qd (2 players)
Hero???
My thought process:
Preflop, I'm getting 6:1, ready to play four way. I usually bet this flop, but my read on the table was that someone was going to bet behind me. So while I would have hated to give a free card here with low top pair (and a missed chance to thin the field). Rather than donk bet the turn, the Ace coming seemed like a spot where I wanted to showdown my pair, and these players seemed tricky enough to raise me with a heart draw, in which case I'd not really know where I stand. So do I check call this river? (and am I correct in thinking that I only have to be good over 10% of the time here, and I can put my opponent on busted straight or flush draws, which I mostly beat (unless of course he has a higher pair than me)?)
Any thoughts or criticisms from Druff or ANY accomplished LHE player welcome!
the way this hand played out I would have bet the flop. I would have bet the turn and probably check fold river. Really dependent on the players but if they are playing very straightforward then you beat nothing on the river if you bet the turn and he calls. By checking the turn you give him the option to bluff a heart draw. On the river he is only betting straights (starting with 44 probably or a4) he might value bet two pair like a5 or aq or a set if he knows he can value bet thin on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandwich
I will break down all 4 streets:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandwich
Pre-flop: Fine. Almost everyone would call here, given that there are 3 others in the hand, it's just one more bet, and your hand can "surprise" people for a big pot if it makes a straight or even 2 pair.
Flop: Leading out isn't terrible, but your idea to check-raise is better. I also agree with your 3-bet. The CO could easily be isolating with ace high, and even if he isn't, you have outs. If you flat the raise, you will be letting UTG stay in the hand for sure, and he can come back to beat you in a lot of ways. You're best off 3-betting and trying to take this thing to heads-up. So you played that part right. I don't like the leading out because too many people will take one off if it's just one bet, and you're going to have to fade too many cards. Better to just eliminate opponents right now. Also, it's not likely to check around, since the CO will be continuation betting with any pair and usually with an ace (since he thinks the 4 is an out, as well).
Turn: Check-calling is the correct move. He likely either has an ace or a better pair -- or perhaps even a set. A bet will be unlikely to get him to fold, unless he holds something unlikely like KQ or QJ. There's a fair chance he'll raise you with this card, and there are no other opponents left to eliminate, so now you want to keep it cheap and see a showdown.
River: Player-dependent. If this is a solid player who wouldn't be isolating the UTG player without a quality hand, you're fucked. Why? Because you can't beat any pocket pair except 44, any ace, KQ, QJ, QT, etc. So basically now you're only ahead of 44 and KJ/KT/JT or some weird suited connector he could be isolating with. A solid, tight-aggressive player won't be isolating with something like 78s or 9Ts here, and especially wouldn't be raising the flop, so you can safely fold. If he happened to have 44, oh well... that's the breaks. A loose-aggressive player might have to be called down here, since he could still showdown crap (or 44). However, folding here is never a bad move, given how many hands you're behind.
Did you still call? If so, don't beat yourself up about it. While you should strive to save river bets by folding in super-obvious "I'm losing" spots, occasional bad/marginal river calls aren't bad, because otherwise you can appear to be a folder, which is an image you don't want. Just don't make a habit of leaking too much on the river.
Thanks, John Stamos and Druff, for the responses. I'm going to have to really digest both of them (later), and may have some follow-up questions, but for sake of completeness, I thought I'd answer Druff's question....
No, I check-folded the river. So I have no idea what Villian ended up having. I posted this particular hand because I don't know if I'm overcompensating, trying too much not to "spew" on rivers (because I think that is my tendency, to play tight before the river, but call pretty loosely heads up on the river). At these 10-20 games, I sometimes get the feeling that I'm being "picked on" by the regulars who sense my reluctance to get to showdown without a solid hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
On this hand, if I'm going to check-call the turn, then what is the appropriate thought process behind check-folding the river? Does the Q change much? Couldn't my opponent have a busted flush or straight draw that I beat at least a "significant" (dictated by pot odds and the fact that a call would "close the action") percentage of the time?
Feeling lost a bit on these rivers. Like I said, I'm gonna think more about this over the weekend. Thanks for the response, guys.
Your fold was fine. Don't worry about it.
I too am a limit only player. As you and everyone knows the game changed a couple of years back. The competition increased exponentially. I had a hard time adjusting so I just kept playing till
a modest bankroll was gone. I had to drop to lower limits but still the game wasn't the same........Only recently has it dawned on me(duh)........my opponents are literally playing everything.
I don't know if this is the case in your limit range but it's amazing the difference it makes when playing against the same players. (goddamn Russians).
I'm still more prone to fold pre-flop with a weak hand but now when I'm in it takes a lot to get me off it. It's more a game of chicken now. Would you agree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by limitles
So you are Limit Les! I never saw it confirmed.
Find a live game. For christs sake get off the internet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brittney Griner's ClitQuote:
Originally Posted by limitles
So you are Limit Les! I never saw it confirmed.
B
Find a live game. For christs sake get off the internet.
Between you and me limitles does not stem from the fact that I play limit poker and my name is Les. Not that there's any thing wrong with the name Les you know. Parents. Wtf
limitles comes from the spiritual side of me. That's right. Drug and gambling addiction is winning the day at the moment and it may kill me but when I break away from those habits
I get back to what is real..........Meditation...... laugh all you want but it has saved my life more than once. So limitles relates to being unbounded. You cannot get this feeling doing drugs or
alcohol.
Just so happens that I play limit poker too.
fnl
I totally agree with this. Especially when in a full ring game and it gets down to heads up, I find that many opponents will aggressively bet and raise draws and so if I have even a small piece I'm usually sticking around until showdown. To compensate for this, I will often play tighter preflop (so I'm the one coolering my opponent, not the other way around).Quote:
Originally Posted by limitles
What I need to become better at is recognizing those times when I should fold turns and rivers (without making the huge mistake of folding a winner for one bet), as well as recognizing those times when I should be betting and raising for value (without being a spew-tard).
icfishies (John Stamos?) destroyed me in heads up low limit holdem on NoFraud Online Poker last night -- somehow I think it wasn't just a variance thing.
The guy playing as icfishies isn't John Stamos, and it's not the real icfishies, either.
But anyway, yes, with experience you can learn to save bets on the turn and river by folding, but you have to be careful when doing so in heads-up pots.
One good thing to do is watch how your opponent plays his rivers. If you see him make a fair amount of bluff river bets and super-thin value bets, it's hard to make tight river folds against him. However, if he tends to check behind on the river with no hand (if you've called his betting the whole way), then you can respect his river bets more. A lot of players assume that their opponents will call the river with any pair or any ace high, so they often won't throw that final bet in if their draw didn't get there.
Against bad players, you really can't make tight laydowns ever, unless the player's leak is super-straightforwardness and lack of ability to bluff.
Also, never get into heads-up raising wars with a hand that has no showdown value, unless you are a favorite to get there.
For example, let's say you have 7d9d and the board is KdQd3c. Don't bother being super-aggro on a board like that against 1 opponent, because he probably hit a piece of that flop if he's giving you action, and he knows there's a good chance you have a draw, so he's also calling down ace high and lower pairs. You're better off playing this one passively until you get there, because your 9-high will almost never win on its own.
It's a lot more justified to be aggressive with AsJs on a board of 8s6s2c because you might already have the best hand, and you also probably have outs to your overcards, too.
You can also be aggressive with the 7d9d on a flop like 6d8s2d because you are a favorite to get there with either your straight or flush draw, and being aggressive on the flop will disguise your hand if you do make one of them (especially the straight).
Ok well, I just got back from a lengthy 10-20 limit holdem session at Borgata this weekend. When I arrived mid afternoon on Saturday there were three tables going -- one main game and two "must move" tables. Must Move 2 fed into Must Move 1, which fed into the Main Game.
When I arrived, unfortunately (or maybe fortunately?) the Must Move 2 game was short handed, so I had to hit the ground running. The game alternated between four-, five- and six-handed, depending upon who got up to go to the bathroom, smoke, etc., while waiting to be called to the full table Must Move 1.
There are three hands in particular that I'd love to get comments on. I bought in for 500. Won some pots, lost some pots --lots of action, preflop raising and raising turns with weak draws, etc. Two of my opponents I recognized as good aggressive regulars, definitely winners in the game. Even though we were short handed, I didn't feel outclassed -- I was able to make some moves and get people to fold best hands as well as pay off some of my value bets when I had the best hand. My stack took a large hit on the following hand, though.... I'd be interested to hear comments.
Hand #1: Four handed. Fold, fold. Blind vs. Blind. My opponent (the BB) is a good (winning) aggressive player who does not "chop" shorthanded. I get Tc5c in the small blind and decide to raise. He three-bets me and I call. Flop comes Q32 rainbow. I bet, he calls. Turn is a T. I bet, he raises, I call. River is an offsuit 4. I check, he bets, I call. He shows T6 which beats my T5.
Without being results oriented -- is this somewhat of a cooler here or is my shorthanded play here too spewy? I really felt like I could take control and get my opponent to fold, and then each time he raised me I felt he had some bluffs in his range. Any thoughts on blind-vs-blind play against good players would be appreciated.
So after that hand, and a few other losses, my stack was down to about 180. I pumped my stack up with another 300, and then after losing a couple more hands, got the call to move to full-ring Must Move 1. I bumped my stack up another 200 (in for 1000 total...ugh), so I had about 450 in chips in front of me when I moved tables.
Must Move 1 was similarly aggressive preflop and after the flop -- a bit less so than the shorthanded table though. Still, no preflop limping, so, depending upon my position, I tried to tighten up and play good starting hands for a raise. (As the evening went on, Must Move 2 filled up as well, so playing shorthanded was never an issue the rest of the night).
Hand #2: Ten handed. A bunch of folds. Worst player at the table who has been raising pretty much anything raises in MP. I re-raise Ks8s on the button, and the small blind, big blind and MP call. Flop comes KcTd3s. SB bets, BB raises, MP calls, I call. Turn is 2h. SB bets, BB calls, MP folds, I call. River is a 8h. SB checks, BB bets, I call, SB calls. (Comments?)
So from Must Move 1 until my move to the Main Game, I consistently and very gradually built up my stack. The Main Game contained some preflop limpers and so I was able to play a few more suited connector and low pair type hands passively preflop.
Hand #3: Ten Handed. It's getting on toward the end of my session and I'm getting tired. I have Ah3h in the small blind. The BB is the same good aggressive player BB from Hand #1 two tables ago. A couple of folds. MP raises, LP calls, Button calls, I call, BB calls. So five of us see the flop of AcTh8h. I bet, BB calls, MP raises, LP folds, button folds, I call, BB calls. Three of us see the turn Ad. I check, BB checks, MP bets, I call, BB calls. At this point I am thinking that one of my opponents has an ace and has got me outkicked. I'm hoping for a heart so I hit my flush, really. The River is the 8d and I was so focused on it not being a heart that I don't even notice that it has paired the board, giving me Aces full of Eights. BB checks, MP bets, I call and BB calls and I table the winning hand, thinking to myself how I blew it by not recognizing that the board paired.
How bad was my failure to read the board properly there? Is my river call horrible? Should I have raised and called a re-raise? The only hands that beat me are AT and 88.
At that point I decided that I'm getting tired and so I racked up when the blinds got back around to me. All told, I cashed out for $1016 -- net profit on the night of 16 American dollars. It felt good to dig myself out of the hole, but I'd obviously have preferred to start my session (shorthanded or not) on the plus side, not stuck!
I'm heading back to the Borgata tonight for some 10-20 LHE this weekend. Doesn't anyone have any comments about any of the hands above? Druff?
Sorry, but you butchered this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandwich
I agree that it's frustrating when you raise the SB against the BB of an aggressive player, get 3-bet, and you think he's just putting moves on you.
However, you need to accept the fact that you'll be forced off some hands by aggressive players, and not just fire into them with complete garbage.
I would actually fold the T5-suited against an aggro player in the BB, since I am getting 3-bet a lot and then will typically miss the flop out of position. Even if I hit, there's some chance I'm dominated.
But putting that aside, once you totally missed the flop, it was time to check/fold.
If you really wanted to run a move on him (because the board was dry), you should have check-raised instead of bet out. Betting out always looks suspicious.
I would have just check-folded the flop.
If MP was really terrible and raising nearly every hand, I agree with the K8s isolation raise on the button pre-flop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandwich
I also agree with the call on the flop. Your hand isn't good enough to 3-bet, but you also don't want to fold, given that you may still have the best hand. The SB bet-out to me looks like a weak king. It might be stronger than yours (such as KJ), but could also be King-trash. MP could have any garbage, and the BB could be raising a draw. If I had to guess, I'd say you were behind at least one player, maybe two, but you shouldn't fold there unless there's more action (such as 3 and 4 bets on the flop).
I would have raised the river. Sometimes you'll run into a set or a weirdly-played KT (by the SB), but more often than not, you have the best hand there. You also might rope in the BB to an extra call (who almost surely is behind you on the river). Unfortunately you'll have to call a 3-bet, unless you're 100% sure that you're against a player who wouldn't 3-bet another K8 or worse. If you were second to act, I might advocate just a call, since raising someone out who would otherwise call is useless.
Preflop: I agree with the callQuote:
Originally Posted by Sandwich
Flop: You seem to like betting out. Unfortunately, this tells people too much about your hand. In this case, you're pretty much announcing, "I have a weak ace!" You have top pair (albeit a bad kicker) and a flush draw, so you might as well be aggressive with it -- at least on the flop. You should have check-raised. If you got 3-bet, you could choose between either calling and waiting to improve on the turn, or 4-betting and only firing the turn if you improve to 2-pair or a flush. Another reason NOT to bet out is because you are letting too many straight draws in cheaply. By check-raising, you are either charging them two bets or forcing them off their straight draw, which is what you want at this point with so much money in the pot.
Turn: I agree that once you took the line of betting out on the flop and got raised, the additional A doesn't seem to help you, so I agree with the check-call.
River: Don't beat yourself up about it. You made a human mistake and misread the board. It didn't seem to cost you, as if you raised, the BB would have likely folded, and you would have ended up making the same amount of money. And yes, you always have to call a re-raise there.
Well, this weekend at the Borgata was somewhat of a downer, LHE-wise. On Friday night I played 10-20 LHE and felt like I was playing well (for me). Still I think my biggest leak is not knowing when to let go of hands such as Ace-high or a low pair heads up. I need to pay more attention to the preflop and flop action and really try to put people on hands. But it seems like I'm still learning the players' tendencies -- such as aggressiveness preflop to isolate, or when people will be super aggressive and then slow down on a later street.
Over the course of the evening I was largely card-dead, and had two brutal cooler hands, which IMO was the difference between a basically break-even (small loss?) session and the $585 loss I booked. One was KK vs. AA, low unpaired flop with flush- and straight-draw cards on board, turn a ten and river another ten. The other was a set-over-set situation. SUCKS that I gotta run bad in a game I'm able to play only infrequently.
(My wife helped me make $400 of it back at the craps table, but that's a different story!)
The next night, there was a list for 10-20 so I sat in a 3-6 LHE game and the game was so juicy that I decided not to get up when my name was called for 10-20. There was one clueless guy who would call pretty much any bet or raise with the mentality that he is "just blowing thru a couple hundred".... and a drunk couple where the guy was teaching his girl how to play, and she had not quite mastered the concept of hand strength yet, but they were having a blast all the same. So there after the usual variance and beats, rake and tips, I beat the 3-6 game for a whopping $19. Better than losing, I suppose.
Thanks for the hand analysis on my previous trip, Druff. I'll have to ingrain that stuff into my brain for next time.
Where can I find your shows about limit poker?
Do you recommend any books that would be relevant for today's game? Or a training site?
I'm really interested in getting back into limit and want to start fresh from how I played years ago.
I'm switching to limit holdem low limit 4-8 where is the best strategy for this thank you