Interesting hand at Monster Stack

I'll make this a 3-part question.

This is the Monster Stack NL WSOP event, $1500 buyin.

First, I will set up the preflop action. 45 minutes into tournament, 25-50 blinds, no big stack at the table yet. Nobody seems to be playing over-aggressive, and nobody seems to be a big fish. It's also early, so it's hard to get many reads yet on the players.

Characters:
EP (early position) is a middle-aged Indian guy who seems solid
EP+1 is a middle-aged Asian woman whose style is unknown
SB is a young white guy whose style is unknown, but does not seem overly aggressive like you might expect a young player to be

Game is 10-handed.

EP opens to 150. EP+1 makes it 500. You are in late position, 2 off the button, and find TcTs. You decide to cold call.

Folds to SB, who also cold calls. BB folds.

4 players.

Flop: 8d 7c 6d

SB checks, EP checks, EP+1 checks -- all fairly quickly without thinking. You are last to act.

You fire 1k.

SB then check-raises to 2500. EP quickly folds.

EP+1 looks confused about what to do. Finally she cold-calls the 2500.

What do you do here? It's 1500 more to call, the pot is now 8000, and you have almost 14k behind. EP+1 has you covered by about 3k, and you have SB covered by about 3k.

Quote:

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EP opens to 150. EP+1 makes it 500. You are in late position, 2 off the button, and find TcTs. You decide to cold call.

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Fucking seriously?

You shove, because you hate money as evidenced by your willingness to play a middle pair into 2 clearly strong hands.


If youre not going to shove with an overpair to the board in that spot, why play the hand at all? What board are you hunting for with TT against 2 early raisers?

You shove and then, if you have any sense of style, you pack up your shit and leave the table before they run out the hand and table the set and overpair you were up against.


~and fin~

I don't think many people are folding 1010 for 1/30th of their stack pre. That seems ridiculous.

Some horrible old ladies that I play with really would play an overpair all scared like that but they aren't buying into 1500 events. Only one hand makes sense for her here is AK of diamonds. But I'd still be leary that she could have overpair.

I don't think the check raise dude is making a cutsie damn near min raise like that with a set on that board. He probably had pair and open end.

So yeah you are in quite a pickle but I'm not bailing for 1500 more at this point. Even in the set vs. Over pair scenario you have 6 outs. However, Im prepared to dump it on most turns to most bets. The action locks up and gets checked to the river more than you think. But if they blast turn they have it. I don't think they always have much on flop though.

Yeah the closest thing to a happy ending here would be facing pocket 9s or AKdd, and given the stack/pot equity you basically need to shove and pick the right god to worship.

Again tho, with the sheer volume of hands that have you murdered here, the correct play was to fold pre and pick a better spot.

Against one player you would have more poetic license with flop play but against two players, both of whom are fucking around on the flop, youre literally always behind here.

But if it's me in the hand I don't even bother with the flop 1000 bet. I'm just too damn scared she has kk like she is supposed to.

It's really like jj,qq,kk,aa, and ak as far as the hands she could have preflop unless I know her. Sure ak springs into the lead once she checks but still.

Edit: And the small blind did just cold call 10x the blind. He could have jj or qq. I just feel like a check raise is coming way too often from one of the three.

PART 2

You call the 1500. Pot is now 9500 and you have about 12k behind.

Turn is Tc

So now you've made top set, but of course you're behind any 9.

SB checks, EP+1 checks

What do you do?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

PART 2

You call the 1500. Pot is now 9500 and you have about 12k behind.

Turn is Tc

So now you've made top set, but of course you're behind any 9.

SB checks, EP+1 checks

What do you do?

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You're 16% to fill up, so theres that... you just beat every overpair AND every underset... and you still need to fade a diamond... and a 9...... overshove and be done with it. The risk of facing a 9 (which isnt absolute) is overshadowed by the number of cards that wreck your shit on the river.

I'll do part 2 (turn) later since I'm playing a few tables atm and typing this on a break.

The flop bet seems alright since they all checked but proceed with caution when raised or called. The pros to betting are possibly taking the pot here on a draw heavy board if they don't have any of it but if they do just call it might get you to the river for free if one person (or more) just flats then checks turn. The downfall is if someone check raises to 5k (mostly fearing the lady in EP+1) it puts you in a spot having to fold what could improve to beat her over pair.

As I said above EP+1 almost always has an over pair here but maybe AdKd. When it comes back to her she is puzzled because she's been down this rodeo before but isn't ready to release her big pair yet.

Unless the SB is clueless about how to bet he don't have a set imo but if he's awful then their is a small chance. He could have a pocket pair (JJ or less) himself taking a stab at winning this hand now hoping to get an over pair to fold, two big diamonds, or some pair/combo draw.

This would be a sexy check raise by the SB if he has pocket nines for reasons that should be obvious.

At this point the pot is laying you good implied odds to call the 1500 more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BeerAndPoker

I'll do part 2 (turn) later since I'm playing a few tables atm and typing this on a break.

The flop bet seems alright since they all checked but proceed with caution when raised or called. The pros to betting are possibly taking the pot here on a draw heavy board if they don't have any of it but if they do just call it might get you to the river for free if one person (or more) just flats then checks turn. The downfall is if someone check raises to 5k (mostly fearing the lady in EP+1) it puts you in a spot having to fold what could improve to beat her over pair.

As I said above EP+1 almost always has an over pair here but maybe AdKd. When it comes back to her she is puzzled because she's been down this rodeo before but isn't ready to release her big pair yet.

Unless the SB is clueless about how to bet he don't have a set imo but if he's awful then their is a small chance. He could have a pocket pair (JJ or less) himself taking a stab at winning this hand now hoping to get an over pair to fold, two big diamonds, or some pair/combo draw.

This would be a sexy check raise by the SB if he has pocket nines for reasons that should be obvious.

At this point the pot is laying you good implied odds to call the 1500 more.

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I put SB on something strongish like 2pr, 56o, 89o for the tp + draw, or hes a total goof with like Ad8x..

It's a $1500 event and you got top set on the turn.

You win you are the top stack in the room.

You lose you go degen 5-10 PLO and make back the $1500.... Or go to bed because you are a poker millionaire.


/thread

Todds slip that the woman "looked confused" tells me she flopped the joint.

PART 3

You consider all three options on the turn.

You could check for pot control, but you think that EP+1 is drawing at diamonds, so you don't want to give a free card.

You could shove, knowing that you may have as many as 10 outs to winning on the river, but because there are TWO different people who could have the 9 here (remember, EP+1 could also be the one with 99), you decide you don't want to shove in your last 12k on the first level of a deepstack event, possibly so behind.

Of course, if you bet too much, then you are pot/stack committed anyway, so if you bet at all, it can't be too much of a percentage of your 12k (or you might as well just shove).

You decide upon a conservative bet of 3k, leaving you 9k behind. Remember that it's still the 25/50 level, so it leaves plenty to still play with. You will see what happens with the other two players when deciding what to do. For example, if the SB check-raises all-in, and EP+1 reshoves, you will fold.

To your surprise, the SB quickly folds, and now you wish you shoved. EP+1 then thinks for a bit and just calls the 3k.

River is the surprising Ad (3rd diamond), ruling out AdKd which so many of us put EP+1 on.

She instantly shoves her chips in, willing to be crippled if she loses.

Do you call?

I realize that some people won't agree with the 3k bet on the turn, but before you critique that, as played, do you call here and bust if wrong?

Since I've already posted all 3 parts, I'll explain my reasoning of Parts 1 and 2.

I stand behind the cold call of TT in a deep stacked event. As BGC pointed out, it was just 1/30 of my stack. I stood to make a lot if I flopped a set against an overpair (or maybe even top pair). I was also willing to let it go if I saw strength from EP+1 postflop, not wanting to be against a bigger pair.

I bet the 1000 because everyone showed weakness by checking, and there were too many scare cards that could run me off the turn, including ones which would legit get way ahead of me. Like take a hand such as QcJc. Horrible flop for them, but if it checks around and a J or Q falls, suddenly I'm in horrible shape and have to fold. So I didn't mind taking a 1k stab (again, small percentage of my stack) to pick up a 2k pot right there with what I thought was the best (but vulnerable) hand.

I also think the check-raise call is obvious since it wasn't very much (just 1500 more), plus I had position, plus I might have the best hand anyway, plus I was closing the betting.

The turn was the absolute hardest.

When thinking about the flop check-raise, I did consider folding because I might seriously be lacking clean outs. If EP+1 has high diamonds, and if SB has a set, I'm drawing very thin (and a non-diamond T is scary no matter what). So I thought this hand was just in too bad of a shape to play comfortably, but figured I had to throw in the 1500 because of the pot size and potential to win more if the right cards fell. Also, I could not definitively put anyone on 99, and in fact there was a wide range of hands SB could have.

Anyway, when the Tc fell on the turn, it was good and bad, for obvious reasons.

But I kept thinking that I was up against TWO players, and that 99 was in the range for both. I wanted to shove, but part of me convinced myself that there was a fair chance I was being set up by someone who didn't want to auto-bet the scare card, and rather hoped someone else would do it, and they could check-raise.

So I made a more conservative bet, leaving myself room to possibly fold.

Once the SB folded, I knew that was the wrong choice, as I would have 100% shoved if I could have seen that coming.

It was the two-opponent thing which threw me off. With one opponent, I shove the TT on the turn, and then just pray if they had the 9.

Upon thinking about it now that I'm out of the tournament, I think shoving was the right move, since it did have redraws, I might have had the best hand (according to the info I knew then), and could have dragged a monster pot.

However, I think there's a good chance I would have busted anyway if I did this, given the river.

When I read this earlier I was going to say whatever you do you either bet all in on the turn or check behind. Their are times on some draw heavy boards this bet has merit to tell the story that you have the goods and are trying to milk it for all it's worth so these over pairs find folds (which they were behind anyways) but this isn't the board to bet small on with a set because it's as it's as wet as it gets. You aren't getting the straight to fold and a flush draw has a decent immediate price on the call but also more implied odds if they hit and can win more on the river.

As played you shouldn't put another chip into this pot on the river whether it be them going all in, them betting 5k, or checking it to you trying to get you to fire. A calling station who might be scared of losing to a flush at this point is likely still a calling station who was hoping to show it down for cheap but no matter what will call if you bet and you lose more.

You also would lose to AA but I'd find it strange as hell if the lady hit her set on the river with aces and jammed a river with the board that wet. I guess QdJd would have a flush draw and gut shot to call with too and would possibly 3 bet with it preflop when very deep otherwise I can't see many flushes in her range with the ace of diamonds hitting the river. If she had KK with the king of diamonds it's a ballsy play to jam the river that could work thanks to that river Ad. Unless she is a monster at poker and feels highly confident you will fold then I wouldn't expect her to do this.

I probably went into more scenarios then necessary here but it's a very wild/interesting hand.

I folded the river.

Her bet was immediate, and I think she believed I had the straight and would call her.

Even if by some chance she had AA, I was still screwed.

Therefore, while I regret not shoving on the turn, I don't think it would have made a difference. I believe she had KQdd or KJdd.

After winning these chips, she got a lot more aggressive and was 3-betting with a lot of marginal hands, so it's not hard to believe that she was 3-betting KQdd from early position.

Very interesting hand that I missed the earlier discussion on. Cold-calling with TT is fine IMO. You only get a limited number of decent hands in a donkament and have to make the most of them. By similar logic you must bet the flop as it's a great one for Tens.

I doubt the check-raise is an airball but could easily be some weak combo draw like 65 or 89 or a flush draw. Of course he could have flopped a set too.. He's probably semi-bluffing assuming the EP players have big cards and you were just taking a stab at it. The 'confused' woman cold-calling is odd as it's difficult to think of a re-raise hand she can have here which likes this board - apart from AKdd.

The turn is the really interesting point of the hand. Betting with the intention of folding to a shove cannot be correct. You have effectively turned top set into a bluff if you do that. If you would be so sure that the opponent had a 9 in the event of a check-shove that you'd fold then don't bet the turn. If on the other hand you are convinced that your opponent's check-shove range has some hands you're beating then betting the turn is fine.

Against two opponents I probably would've checked it back. It's true that you're giving a free card to a flush draw but a made straight is also giving you a free card to improve.

I would've been much more likely to call the river as I can't put EP+1 on a hand that makes sense. A bad player could've stuck around with AA but they'd surely be wary of the straight/flush possibilities. Turning a set of Aces into a bluff to get you off a straight is an incredibly advanced play. If she has a flush then what was she reraising with? I suppose I'd call and get shown KQdd or QJdd but it seems fishy.

This is a very tricky situation but I think it could have been avoided if you had just checked behind on the flop. When you coldcall the 500 with 10-10 pre you're looking to flop huge. It was a good flop for your hand but not good enough to bet it as your hand still can't take too much pressure and that flop hits too much of your opponents ranges especially the small blind.

Once you bet you're opening yourself up to potentially playing a pot that's way too bloated for your hand strength. Checking behind on the flop in position accomplishes a bunch of things. It controls the pot, it disguises the shit out of your hand if you smash the turn, and it allows you to dump it if a scare card hits the turn and there is significant betting and you get away having lost only 500.

This is all easy for me to say after the fact but that's just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by ShawnFanningsLimpDick

Very interesting hand that I missed the earlier discussion on. Cold-calling with TT is fine IMO. You only get a limited number of decent hands in a donkament and have to make the most of them. By similar logic you must bet the flop as it's a great one for Tens.

I doubt the check-raise is an airball but could easily be some weak combo draw like 65 or 89 or a flush draw. Of course he could have flopped a set too.. He's probably semi-bluffing assuming the EP players have big cards and you were just taking a stab at it. The 'confused' woman cold-calling is odd as it's difficult to think of a re-raise hand she can have here which likes this board - apart from AKdd.

The turn is the really interesting point of the hand. Betting with the intention of folding to a shove cannot be correct. You have effectively turned top set into a bluff if you do that. If you would be so sure that the opponent had a 9 in the event of a check-shove that you'd fold then don't bet the turn. If on the other hand you are convinced that your opponent's check-shove range has some hands you're beating then betting the turn is fine.

Against two opponents I probably would've checked it back. It's true that you're giving a free card to a flush draw but a made straight is also giving you a free card to improve.

I would've been much more likely to call the river as I can't put EP+1 on a hand that makes sense. A bad player could've stuck around with AA but they'd surely be wary of the straight/flush possibilities. Turning a set of Aces into a bluff to get you off a straight is an incredibly advanced play. If she has a flush then what was she reraising with? I suppose I'd call and get shown KQdd or QJdd but it seems fishy.

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I don't think SB flopped a set because he snap-folded my turn bet. Didn't have 89 (or he would have made a straight), and also I doubt he had a flush draw, as again the snap fold would make no sense.

I think your guess of 65 is a good one. 55 is another good guess -- something he may have felt good about check-raising the flop given how it went, but realized on the turn he had no shot.

I think EP+1 made a flush. Her play up until that point strongly suggested a flush draw (though 99 slowplaying until the river is also possible).

If she really ran me off the hand with JJ/QQ/KK, then more power to her, but I don't think she did.

I don't think you are wrong in the result.

I do think I would have shoved the turn because its a chip leader situation and there is value in that.

Asian chick in this story (EP+1) continuing to run well.

She is still in the event with 26 left.

http://www.wsop.com/players/playerpr...layerID=175202

http://www.wsop.com/images/ImageStor...e09a1534b3.jpg

Girls with their eyes closed are rarely bluffing.

lol at asking for advice and then deleting it when it doesn't fit your agenda.

She pushed you off your hand on the river based on her read of how you play. It was her intention all along based on stack sizes and her donkmeter reading.

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Originally Posted by Deal

lol at asking for advice and then deleting it when it doesn't fit your agenda.

She pushed you off your hand on the river based on her read of how you play. It was her intention all along based on stack sizes and her donkmeter reading.

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Your "advice" was just trolling, so I removed it.

The hand was way too early for her to have "donkmeter" reads on my play.

You also know nothing about my previous hands at that table, so again you're just trolling.

You are welcome to participate in strategy discussions here, even if you disagree with my play. However if your purpose here is mostly to troll, I will just kick you from this section of the site.

Looks like Linglin is at it again

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmV0BS2VUAAAhD6.jpg:large

She is very aggro once she gets a big stack. I can see how she can run up chips quickly if she's running well.

When I faced her in this hand, she didn't have a big stack yet.

She also had no big cashes until this year's Monster Stack, where she finished 16th.

I had an interesting hand on Bovada tonight. It was only a $50 heads up SNG but I was put in a very tough spot.

 

https://s31.postimg.org/r17o714wr/hofnig.png

That Linglin Zeng girl got 5th in the 3k tournament.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BeerAndPoker

I had an interesting hand on Bovada tonight. It was only a $50 heads up SNG but I was put in a very tough spot.

 

https://s31.postimg.org/r17o714wr/hofnig.png

That Linglin Zeng girl got 5th in the 3k tournament.

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You got 900 in preflop (out of a 2k stack) when blinds were 10/20 with pocket threes?

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Originally Posted by nunbeater

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BeerAndPoker

I had an interesting hand on Bovada tonight. It was only a $50 heads up SNG but I was put in a very tough spot.

 

https://s31.postimg.org/r17o714wr/hofnig.png

That Linglin Zeng girl got 5th in the 3k tournament.

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You got 900 in preflop (out of a 2k stack) when blinds were 10/20 with pocket threes?

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there must be an obvious explanation to this

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Originally Posted by RegGaymer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nunbeater

You got 900 in preflop (out of a 2k stack) when blinds were 10/20 with pocket threes?

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there must be an obvious explanation to this

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The only explanation I can come up with is that he wanted the 80 chips in the middle so badly that it was worth risking it all on the flop to get them.

I only posted it because Druff had that spot with 33 and it wasn't so clear cut what to do on the flop.

No offense, but $50 hu sng level the standard of play there is mostly regulars who play them for a living.

It's cool if you just play recreationally and can afford to shoot off a handful of $50 buy-in games, but there's no way you can get half your stack in pre at first level with 3s

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RegGaymer

No offense, but $50 hu sng level the standard of play there is mostly regulars who play them for a living.

It's cool if you just play recreationally and can afford to shoot off a handful of $50 buy-in games, but there's no way you can get half your stack in pre at first level with 3s

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You guys both didn't read the hand right as to what happened because that is not what goes on preflop. I paused the re-player without even acting to what he does on the flop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RegGaymer

No offense, but $50 hu sng level the standard of play there is mostly regulars who play them for a living.

It's cool if you just play recreationally and can afford to shoot off a handful of $50 buy-in games, but there's no way you can get half your stack in pre at first level with 3s

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Showing how stupid you are again. He already explained it to you & you didn't even bother to read it.

There was 80 chips in the middle pre-flop or 40 from each player, & I'm pretty sure 40 wasn't half his stack, & the guy decided to go all-in when B&P flopped quads.

What's so hard to understand here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

So I made a more conservative bet, leaving myself room to possibly fold.

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Really interesting hand. Of your three options on the turn, I think the conservative bet you made was the worst line. Shove being the best and check being the second best option. I don't think we're doing a good job there using our soldiers. You get the sb to fold but with the ten on the turn you have him crushed anyway. What is he check raising the flop with? 99? I think she read the situation perfectly. She turned up the heat. So many hands put you in jail. The ace on the river is really interesting too. Because it really elimiminates Ace-Xd from your range. You could have 99 there since you have tt - yeah but you can't have a flush there.

Also, with you behind her yet to act she's going to call the turn check raise with a flush draw? Her hand feels like two pair or potato salad but it doesn't matter because a flush is not in your range at all.

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Originally Posted by jcb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

So I made a more conservative bet, leaving myself room to possibly fold.

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Really interesting hand. Of your three options on the turn, I think the conservative bet you made was the worst line. Shove being the best and check being the second best option. I don't think we're doing a good job there using our soldiers. You get the sb to fold but with the ten on the turn you have him crushed anyway. What is he check raising the flop with? 99? I think she read the situation perfectly. She turned up the heat. So many hands put you in jail. The ace on the river is really interesting too. Because it really elimiminates Ace-Xd from your range. You could have 99 there since you have tt - yeah but you can't have a flush there.

Also, with you behind her yet to act she's going to call the turn check raise with a flush draw? Her hand feels like two pair or potato salad but it doesn't matter because a flush is not in your range at all.

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I understand what you're saying, but you're getting one detail very wrong.

There was no turn check raise.

The flop check-raiser suddenly backed off on the turn, going into check-quick fold mode.

So she also checked the turn, and then had to face the decision of what to do with my bet on the button.

I think going all in was the correct move on the turn for me here, but once I didn't, I think it was hard to call the river, given her play being somewhat indicative of the flush draw.