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Maybe a stupid question but how does online poker survive with the advancement of AI and poker bots? Wont there be a point in the near future where bots will not only be better than almost all players but also impossible to detect? I am sure this has been debated a ton already, but I dont see how online poker exists once this happens. Which means all this talk about legalization doesn't really matter. There are probably poker bots right now that are owning the shit out of players.
Sites that are not regulated have less of an incentive to detect a bot. They won't want to spend a whole lot of money investing in technology to detect these bots because in the end it's just all rake generated. If poker becomes more regulated across the board gaming regulations would have to force sites to develop better methods of detection.
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Originally Posted by lewfather
It just seems as if they will adapt and figure out a way around it especially once the bots are printing money for them. Video gamers cheat all the time using bot scripts, constantly updating them to get around security measures, and this is an area where there isn't even any financial incentive to do so.
The problem is that they are detectable in many ways, and there is a risk in running them, as the account gets closed and all money is confiscated.
Even mouse movements can give away the presence of bots.
With that said, I think there probably are a lot of bots on the existing US-facing sites, because their security is incompetent. (Also, on Bovada, you can't see who is playing you, so it's very hard for the player to identify them.)
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Originally Posted by Dan Druff
Maybe I am being naive, but it seems as if it would be fairly easy to mimic human play. For example, the bot is actually controlling your mouse, is programmed to pause, alert a real human when asked a question directly, not play for long periods of time, etc. Or just have the bot on another computer and then human manually entering in the data. Wouldnt that work?
Bots currently suck ass at no limit holdem and PLO. While theoretically solvable, the game trees are so enormous (many orders of magnitude larger than chess) that even quantum computers calculating every planck second wouldn't be able to find all game states before the heat death of the universe.
You don't have to do all that to make a capable bot, but that gives an idea of how complex it is. I wouldn't assume it's inevitable that bots will be crushing NLH within 10 years. Maybe they never will.
Google seems to have decent human detection these days based on mouse movements and other behavioral identity data. Those are those the captchas where you just tick a box. I don't know how easy that is to circumvent though.
Bots have gotten a little better at PLO, but the main concern for me playing any potential AI is in limit games, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by SrslySirius
The captcha idea is a good suggestion, but those operate bots have found ways to get around that too. It's a difficult thing to self-police and the only way for players to defend the integrity of games is for the sites themselves to invest time & money in security.
Yeah limit games are far less complex (mathematically speaking) and I heard recently that LHE has been solved. gg Duff/China
Lew nails it with the rake.Quote:
Originally Posted by lewfather
However, regulation is actually probably to blame here again somewhat. There are so few US facing sites and the regulated sites exist as virtual mononpolies because the regulated states are such a huge fail.
The lack of competition is the evil. Some outfit would respond to their customers concerns in a free market. They would differentiate themselves with the claim in advertising they run a clean "bot free" game.
NEVER look to government to solve a consumer need.
Sites will never win the arms race for bot detection.
Never.
Javascript libraries already exist for psuedo-human mouse movement emulation, they are used extensively in clickfraud botnets. Process detection becomes mooted easily by running the game in a hypervised OS and having the bot interact with the VM's console. Plus, some sites allow hot-keys that totally allow the mouse to be ignored during play.
In theory one could forbid the use of VMs but even then, given that the AV industry cant even detect the majority of malware being released, what are the odds of poker sites having the resources to do proper detection?
So yeah, bots/AI are going to become extremely profitable if people start playing online again in numbers.
Which they never will because poker is faggot, of course.
Over 5 years ago on 2p2 it was speculated and accepted by many that LHEM was pretty much a solved game and there's software or bots that can play almost perfectly. People were pointing out that a big chunk of big lhem winners were software engineers/ programmers etc.
Circumstantial evidence or pure coincidence?
Druff's game of choice is lhem
His online results in that game of choice
Druff's education in computers and software
Druff's lack of concern about GTO software or poker bots was strangely dismissive. People can have their software/bot running on a stand alone computer w optical sensors to read the screen and have the actual person input the software advice.
Him mentioning US sites might have bots but not mentioning Bovada which has an anon. player pool.
Running a poker fraud forum
He's conservative
He's probably legit but you guys keep an eye on him :)
For what its worth two of the most popular bots out there out in the open and not hiding their existence is the ever popular Shanky bot akahttp://www.bonusbots.com and the other is Warbot which uses a modified version of the OpenHoldem platform on which a lot of bot users apparently are modifying to their own usage and does in fact screen scrap to operate. (the down side to Warbot is on a couple platforms it has to run XP to work properly apparently vs even 7 or Win 10).. Warbot is available through this link http://www.poker-bot.org/main/ (for those curious about its existence). I figure exposing this information is more of a public service I readily deny I use either platform nor would I because readily available bots exist only to grind rake back and play minimum micro stakes primarily and just cant see it worth the money even at $100-$200 to pay for something for min stakes autoplayer. Reality is the good bots aren't for sale because no idiot would bother to sell the golden goose..
I do find this attitude to be weird. A few years ago a group was working on perfecting a limit AI player(could have been part of the Alberta group). They said they had it solved and were looking for players to play against -- for free. Some of the 2+2 nerds like smellypete or something were playing them / giving them action which only allowed their bots to get better.Quote:
Originally Posted by FPS_Russia
I couldn't believe these dumb fucks didn't realize giving the AI all this experience playing very good limit players could come back to haunt them. None of university computer geeks would ever use this info to try and win real money.
Some people admire the science/art behind it.
Same as chess really.
I believe they won by colluding and sharing dead card info, which makes the game waaaay simpler.Quote:
bukowski72: Wrong. Bots won huge at mid stakes PLO. "Massive PLO bot ring on PS"
Yeah thats what the Viet gangs used to do.
I won't argue that it has been solvedQuote:
Originally Posted by SrslySirius
By Me
http://i.imgur.com/QoToyyu.png
:lol2
what happened at hand 22581? did you take lsd or something and have a revelation?
Sort of, after getting Fs for grades for a while I decided to study for tests. Studying paid off.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinamaniacSort of, after getting Fs for grades for a while I decided to study for tests. Studying paid off.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
China you're now a suspect too. Did you get a pm from Druff or what? something like this...
Druff: China get in there and deflect and downplay, FPS is on to us big time! How does he know PFA's a front wtf..
China: Oh shit, ok. Where's DJ Chaps when you need him.
Druff: I think it's best to just totally ignore him, nobody believes him. Don't legitimize his "troll posts."
China: K
China, who else is on "The Dream Team"?
Nah I'm just fucking around with you guys. I'm pretty sure Druff has GTO software but I believe he would just practice against it, therefore not breaking the TOS.
Druff lives in the loopholes, well played I guess...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SrslySirius
Bots all with the exact same playing style won over $1 million playing mid-stakes NL (2-4 to 5-10) in less than a year on merge a few years ago.
You don't need to solve the entire tree to make $.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FPS_RussiaQuote:
Originally Posted by chinamaniac
China you're now a suspect too. Did you get a pm from Druff or what? something like this...
Druff: China get in there and deflect and downplay, FPS is on to us big time! How does he know PFA's a front wtf..
China: Oh shit, ok. Where's DJ Chaps when you need him.
Druff: I think it's best to just totally ignore him, nobody believes him. Don't legitimize his "troll posts."
China: K
China, who else is on "The Dream Team"?
Nah I'm just fucking around with you guys. I'm pretty sure Druff has GTO software but I believe he would just practice against it, therefore not breaking the TOS.
Druff lives in the loopholes, well played I guess...
LOL AT BRINGING MY NAME INTO A THREAD I HADN'T EVEN OPENED UNTIL NOW. YOU REALLY ARE A MENTAL MIDGET WHO BREATHES EXCLUSIVELY FROM HIS MOUTH HOLE.
If you havent heard of us yet, then let us introduce ourselves...
We are an online poker bot company that sells the most advanced poker bot profiles and hoppers on the market!
We have been in business for over 8 years now, and have been constantly improving and applying advanced strategy to our bots!
We support a number of poker sites (888Poker, PartyPoker, Carbon Poker, Bodog, and many more!) and continue to grow.
(spam URL removed)
I was just letting you know in case you want to add us to your website for value.
Can you provide Western Union details so i can ship payment?
Do you take e-checks?
Ill take two bots please.
I hope you fucking die you worthless n-wordQuote:
Originally Posted by webber04
Can you provide us with a couple of common bot tells?
Ok wasn't expecting this.. Webber your gonna get eaten alive here trust me.. But I shall expand a little..
She writes profiles and automated tools for the 2 biggest poker holdem bots in the world that are sold commercially in the public (I'm also pretty sure there are some no so well known ones which are kept quiet)
Those 2 being the Shanky Bot which has been around for several years and is proprietary technology itself while the profiles (coding for the actions of the bots) are written using what is known as PPL (Poker Player Language).
The other is OpenHoldem which is an opensource project which is technically free software but needs extensive coding (profiles) to run effectively essentially at stakes.. (most bots are micro grinding profiles but Ive seen some written designed for large field MTTS.)
Where Druff is going to come down hammertime because they've now integrated Openholdem Profiles to use PT4 information which can either be gained through bot playing but also hand history bulk downloads from sites like HHsmithy and others.. This means the Bots are doing more then playing ABC poker now with OH.. It is actually able to adjust to players based on the PT4 information its gathered through playing against them or as I said harvested from bulk download providers.. This obviously brings up the sore subject of not even HUD play (which PT4 offers) but the ability to use a bot to adjust to players styles vs the old standard of if I get this hand then I do this based on position.. It also creates the possibility of using a bot in a semi-automated mode such that it gives you action suggestions and you still can play yourself deciding to listen or ignore the bots move..
Theres also a 3rd hybrid out there its a commercially altered Bot known as Warbot.. Now Webber will even admit and shes complained that the 'author' of Warbot has in fact hijacked and resold her profiles for his own gain along with several others he converted written for free or such from Shanky bot profiles converted to play on a modified framework for OpenHoldem.. And yes he too has integrated PT4 now in some profiles (besides a few he ripped off from Webber04).
It used to be bots were pretty much micro stakes grinder rakeback and bonus clearance software but I would say with the integration of PT4 that Pandora's box has now been opened further as the ability to literally pull down hand histories you haven't played (which is a TOS violation for many sites anyway supposedly but hard to prove on the poker sites parts).. Also a lot of sites just don't give a shit. I know the above mentioned bots play on ACR, Ignition (obviously PT4 software and bot profiles which use it are mostly useless due to the anonymous tabling), BOL and some others.. Hell Warbot claims and gives instructions on how to set it up in a stealth format to play on Pokerstars.. Not sure I buy that given PS rigid attacks to protect against same even if you could use it on there its not a set and forget thing on PS simply because of the captcha.. Eventually you are going to get caught there I'm sure and since it doesn't apply to US players because we cant play there its useless
PS.. The bots can supposedly run on WSOP online real money as well which is a clear TOS and even a violation of NGC legal standards meaning its criminal.. Havent heard of anybody being caught yet so either its not true, WSOP knows its true doesn't care to bother trying to hunt down any botters, and that any seats being filled bot or real is seen by them as a plus to get games going.. Hell its possibly they are running bots themselves (did you guys know that the software that NoFraud poker site runs on Poker Mavens has a 3rd party distributor which sells a poker botting add on which supposedly integrates on the poker site and will let the owner or admin run as many bots as they want in Holdem or Holdem Tourneys as they claim to help generate traffic for the site and make it seem active then it is.. Kinda was shocked by that.. The 3rd party provider claims the software cant cheat or see hole cards but you just have to wonder with it being out there as an option if something nefarious could happen such a superuser bots playing on the software potentially.. Maybe I'm crazy.. But it does give me pause to say the least..
Its getting harder and harder dude. The bots especially Shanky played a lot of ABC poker with some random gear shifting without explanation but hell now they are using profiles integrating OGT with ability to read datamining from PT4 and shift accordingly.. They even include a small RNG to make the appearance of timing tells disappear (used to be you could time a bots actions exactly and then figure out it was a bot vs real person because no real person especially multi tabling can be exactly 3 secs everytime they act..Quote:
Originally Posted by limitles
good christ, man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ftpjesusIts getting harder and harder dude. The bots especially Shanky played a lot of ABC poker with some random gear shifting without explanation but hell now they are using profiles integrating OGT with ability to read datamining from PT4 and shift accordingly.. They even include a small RNG to make the appearance of timing tells disappear (used to be you could time a bots actions exactly and then figure out it was a bot vs real person because no real person especially multi tabling can be exactly 3 secs everytime they act..Quote:
Originally Posted by limitles
Dude where did you get front group from?? Ive lurked on Shankys site for a long time.. Wise man once say always know what the enemy or potential enemies are up to.. If you don't keep up with this kinda crap itll bite ya in the ass honestly.. To me its kinda scary that stuff has gotten this far, then again, as I said the sites don't tend to give a shit as it just helps them generate rake/fees/aka INCOME for the site.. What I'm posting actually is out there if you do the research.. What I cant answer or say is likely there are non-commercial poker bots out there being used much better then what Shankey and the OpenHoldem folks have inserted into the poker environment and if the basic open stuff has gotten this good with integrating PT4 database information and using it to make decisions thus creating a smart poker bot that like the ones tested from Carneige Mellon but on a smaller and simplier application no telling what somebody could do in the somewhere in between category with a higher end desktop/workstation with some raw processing power, massive lines of coding and a decent bankroll.. As tine so adeptly pointed out there are programs to even fake human actions like clicking and such at random times to hide the real computer running the show against live players.. Where the problem comes in and nobodys said it also..
What happens when you have several bots say a small farm and able to hide IP addresses or even have them physically separate yet able to communicate to each other through a vpn and thus create bot collusion networks as they reveal cards to each other thus potentially driving up pots by whipsawing other real live players at the table.. The potential implications are kinda scary and the truth is these goings on do zero to help online poker as a whole it just creates more distrust in folks thinking its all rigged.. Hell like I said whats to stop a poker site from pulling a UB except with their own bot players as I just mentioned running a bot farm against their customers.. Yeah I know sounds a little tinfoil hattish but I'm playing Devils advocate here more then anything.. Its never as bad as it seems usually I'm bringing up worst case possibilities but seeing how lower end bots have now developed the ability to learn and adapt to situations based on database of historical actions by players it just makes you wonder what we DONT know.. (my feeling is the real poker AI advances aren't being revealed yet.. sure you get the live players bot competiton where the bot kicks their ass this year after last years tie). Those whacky Russian computer nerds love poker and the Russian mob loves money.. Put the two together you have a recipe for a huge bot ring which could do serious damage to the reputation of a site and the game in general.. giving the ammunition to idiots like Adelson that indeed its unfair to the players and rigged against them that they don't know it and must be saved from themselves..
Dude don't be cucked by these "ethical" players in the forums, they're full of shit. Get some bots, superuse collude whatever you can get away with because they're probably doing the same. JK but webber bumping this thread is sort of weird (is that really some chick or even a real person wtf) then your response was even more bizarre.
FTP
Jk but that was a strange interaction.
anyhow
Interesting insight, carry on.