winning_td

I had it out with the tournament director of w.p.n..

I rallied a whole bunch of posters to complain about th 3hour/5 hour late reg on the majority of there tournaments on all levels..

Proclaiming that people would enter more tournaments and satellites if the late reg was 60 minutes across the board..

He was worried about overlays...

We insisted that it's a self fulfilling prophecy because that's what's stopping rec players in mass from buying in to higher tournaments, playing satellites and generally logging more hands..

The #1 complaints about a.c.r is the late reg and the nit/rec ratio and that 60 minutes late reg would solve that problem even if they had to lower g.t.d accross the board..

Cater to the rec,s and the nits will come..

They insisted we were wrong there keeping 3 hour late reg???

Any constructive opinions??

He was complaining about overlays...

And that the 3 hour late reg helps reach g.t.d..,and they have a 200k.overlay problem.

I explained that if he made everything 60 late and lowered the g.t.d.. that..

1..The nits won't leave because it would bring a lot of new people in, and nits like that..

2..the recs would be entering more tournaments and playing longer hours during the day.

3...the average Mtt grinder would find it doable to enter at higher buy-in "thinking" they had a better chance at cashing.

4.. people would play more satellite,s to the.by tournament because the 60 late instead of 5 hour late would make it more attainable.

5..thus no more overlays and the g.t.d. would increase again.

All you.guys are more experienced then me, where is my logic wrong because he still insist on 180 late or are they being dishonest some how??

Please help refine my argument if I'm wrong or support my logic...

Yeah, you are wasting your time and uselessly barking up tree . Winnings admins have blinders on and all they can see is all that rake coming with all those rebuys addons etc. People have really tried to sway the admins but they are deadfast against any change and will not bend. Winning has its good sides like paying out fast but when it comes to listening to what players want they have earplugs , blinders on. Put your efforts elsewhere as they are wasted on this group.

To further make my point I expressed that he should make 1(one) monthly 50k with 60 late for 100$ buy in.. and have supporting satellites..

You wouldn't get 500 entries...

Of course you would so my logic is sound..

They could do that a cross the board but for argument sake just one..

I've gotten no response...

Because that undermines there gimmick..

Update.....

Winning_td personally assured me that a "large monthly" with a 60 late would be coming after the slow season..

He has also started his own thread agreeing with some of our concerns and will post more g.t.d. tournaments with 60 late.

I personally have no reason not to take him at his word..

UPDATED..

Just though I would share this..

I know acr has been getting a lot of complaints about there late reg..

When I rejoined 2+2 last month I made that my primary focus albeit with a speratenesq style.

The old late reg threads were dozens of pages,back.

I started a couple of threads as well posting in older ones,about late reg and it's hurting traffic and why. I got a lot of people talking about it to the point the t.d. chimed in referring to my posts( kinda)..

I'm happy to post he is creating a GI60 tournament series all with 60 late...

I can't prove it but I will take some credit..

All the Daily tourneys should be down to 60 minutes to max 1:30 at most unless it's a major events I stopped playing there due to it. It's for re entry is what it is so more rake.

Finnally

Yeah, I saw that thread where tournament director finally acquiesced to player demands and agreed to put in some hour rebuys. Lol about it being a victory its so ridiculous to have nothing but 3 hour plus rebuys. They had six hour rebuys for 1 dollar buyin 10ks . I may go back and play some tourneys there now. Big accomplishment to get winning mgmt to bend in any way shape or form.

Please do. The only way this works if there no overlay and traffic increases for mtt..

So far so good. I only grind mtt but if this structure works on acr. It would be an awesome poker site..

I haven't looked for them yet, but I agree with the reasonable reg times. I deposited a few months back and was in a MTT where people were allowed to enter like 3 plus hours in. I understand the idea behind allowing this-that they are buying in short, have less edge, etc... but i'd prefer a shorter mtt.

I'll look for these.

There are some serious donks in these MTT's, and they rebuy which is good, but I dont want to spend hours for some bs prize pool.

I really think that the outcry to get rid of extended late reg has very little logive behind it. It's players complaining because things aren't the way the want them to be (the way they were before black friday). Also, I think many players just tilt during the last few levels of late reg because after looking at giant overlay in lobby for 2.5 hours quickly disappear they feel slowrolled

Late reg allows for larger guarantees, this attracts more recreational players, and poker grows.

Some tourneys do allow you to register too close to the money, creating postential freeroll for mincash. However, these are rare and most players who attempt this find themselves in a very -ev situation, which is overall good for the the "fish to reg" ratio.

The biggest argument I can think of against extended re-entry structure is that solid regs will be re entering at higher frequency than fish, especially at the mid-higher stakes, thus making the fields "artificially" tougher.


Not all WPN mtts have 3 hours of late reg.

They have on demand mtts with less than an hour.

Some of the r&a on mtts have 60 min late reg with 90 min of rebuys.

They have dailys with smaller grts and shorter late reg.

But for their biggest mtts on schedule, I think it's pretty obvious that if they shorten the late reg, they will need to either reduce the grt or be prepared to lose lots of $ on regular overlays.



imo The one hour late reg series is just a backhanded way of showing the complainers why extended late reg is necessary for the playerpool they have today. I think the overall reaction will be very underwhelming compared to the 5 hour late reg series they ran a couple months ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by weeeeee

All the Daily tourneys should be down to 60 minutes to max 1:30 at most unless it's a major events I stopped playing there due to it. It's for re entry is what it is so more rake.

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Why should re-entry tournaments charge less rake than freeze outs?

It's true for some reason the norm was established back before 2000 - The house makes their money in poker tournaments by taking a % of the the players total prizepool. The bigger the buyin, the more they got. UNLESS, it's a rebuy and add on, then they give a huge discount (over 70%) - and the percentage they make is not directly related to the amount wagered.


If were going to complain about rake, it seems the more logical argument would be to reduce the % they take. The players who wager one entry, should not have to pay double the rake of someone who wagers two entries.

If your almost better off entering late andvshiving a couple of times instead of staring 3 hour early. Something is wrong.

All this late reg is a gimmick perpertarated by poker companies against the players.

If it's a mega daily,weekly or monthly tournament then late reg is fine only! If the blinds and starting starting stack truly benefits the player that started in time.

Most reg,s agree as well as pros and all the rec,s..

Recs do not renter multiple times in same tournament. They start a new one..

The nit,s do. You have too much time on your hands. Get a girlfriend .

The gi60 are doing very well by the way. They have a normal! Feel to then

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thesparten

If your almost better off entering late andvshiving a couple of times instead of staring 3 hour early. Something is wrong.

All this late reg is a gimmick perpertarated by poker companies against the players.

If it's a mega daily,weekly or monthly tournament then late reg is fine only! If the blinds and starting starting stack truly benefits the player that started in time.

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This is an excellent example of the general reasoning used by most complainers. Please provide the logic behind your "If this, then that" rule.

Calling it a gimmick is fine. WPN is trying to be as profitable as possible - which means they are trying to attract maximum players and create biggest mtts they can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thesparten

Most reg,s agree as well as pros and all the rec,s..

Recs do not renter multiple times in same tournament. They start a new one..

The nit,s do. You have too much time on your hands. Get a girlfriend .

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You can't be serious.

If so, please provide evidence.

Your entire argument so far is a total logic fail.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by duped_samaritan

I really think that the outcry to get rid of extended late reg has very little logive behind it. It's players complaining because things aren't the way the want them to be (the way they were before black friday). Also, I think many players just tilt during the last few levels of late reg because after looking at giant overlay in lobby for 2.5 hours quickly disappear they feel slowrolled

Late reg allows for larger guarantees, this attracts more recreational players, and poker grows.

Some tourneys do allow you to register too close to the money, creating postential freeroll for mincash. However, these are rare and most players who attempt this find themselves in a very -ev situation, which is overall good for the the "fish to reg" ratio.

The biggest argument I can think of against extended re-entry structure is that solid regs will be re entering at higher frequency than fish, especially at the mid-higher stakes, thus making the fields "artificially" tougher.


Not all WPN mtts have 3 hours of late reg.

They have on demand mtts with less than an hour.

Some of the r&a on mtts have 60 min late reg with 90 min of rebuys.

They have dailys with smaller grts and shorter late reg.

But for their biggest mtts on schedule, I think it's pretty obvious that if they shorten the late reg, they will need to either reduce the grt or be prepared to lose lots of $ on regular overlays.



imo The one hour late reg series is just a backhanded way of showing the complainers why extended late reg is necessary for the playerpool they have today. I think the overall reaction will be very underwhelming compared to the 5 hour late reg series they ran a couple months ago.

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Who wants to play 8 hour plus tournaments for 10 dollar entries with nothing else on the menu? People who think that this will attract rec players must be taking some serious drugs and I would like to know why they aren't sharing. The only descent tournaments are buyins that are 50 dollars to 300 dollars. The rentrys don't factor in at these stakes because of the smaller pools of players and lesser amount of chips which do provide better play. The tournaments the recs are looking for are the 20 dollar buyin and less that are an abomination. Winning is doing nothing but paying out large overlays proving that their tournament structure is not what the players are looking for which is why they agreed to reduce to 1 hour renters. They need to attract more players then the current player pool as it is all regs with not too many of the rec type players . Every online poker site is reg infested unless you are a row player.

People don't really tilt because overlays disappear. Usually after playing 3 plus hours a lot of people have maybe 3 times the original buyins and by the time the rebuy period is over that equates to 12 big blinds with the last entry rebuy people having 4 big blinds. I have seen it. People always say what great structure which is lol. The only people who are deep after last period of late entry are the top stacks. This is not great structure as all the fan boys of winning claim it to be.

People tilt that have been playing for 3 plus hours because with blinds what they are, the people who have been playing for 3 hours are no better off then the late entries. Shitty poker if you ask me.

Excellent point!!!!

Nobody is complaining about lowering the gtd to accommodate the gi60..

They had a 2$ entry for a 200gtd. That hit almost 400.

They even had a 30$ gi60 with a 600gtd that broke 1000.. And that was a small winnable field with the payout structure not being deluted by reentries. It was fun! not work or slots. The way poker should be.

I'm not comparing acr to stars or being a nit.

The td said that the gtd will be small at first and raise them accordingly..

It's all working out. The nit who posted above Frank has to "get a life"..

Who the fuck wants a 3 hour late with the same 5 people reentering multiple times and a half a dozen coming in last minute and shoving multiple times.

You call that poker..

Even druff on the last show had some issues with that. These nits call us complainers?!!? They are generally the anal retentive, passive aggressive complainers who truly believe " they don't complain more than most" in other words there nit,s..

I just got done playing my first 60 min late reg tourney and managed too cash in at 4th.
I'd rather pay a higher entry fee for a smaller field and less of the over the top late reg shenanigans. It's just a better value. I'll be playing there a lot more now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blubbernuffle

I just got done playing my first 60 min late reg tourney and managed too cash in at 4th.
I'd rather pay a higher entry fee for a smaller field and less of the over the top late reg shenanigans. It's just a better value. I'll be playing there a lot more now.

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Heck yeah. Gi60 rocj

I did a 30$entry for a 600gtd. And if generally don'tplay that high(30$)

It had like 35 entries. I played tight most of the time made a couple of bluffs, that worked. Didnt cash though. I think it was top 8 in the money.

I made it out of the late. It was fun and felt like real poker. Not a rentry casino.

I didn't cash but first was around 500 for 35 entries and 2.5 hours of play then I jumped into the 2$ 200 gtd that hit a 1000.. It was just fun

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blubbernuffle

I just got done playing my first 60 min late reg tourney and managed too cash in at 4th.
I'd rather pay a higher entry fee for a smaller field and less of the over the top late reg shenanigans. It's just a better value. I'll be playing there a lot more now.

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Heck yeah. The Gi60 rock

I did a 30$entry for a 600gtd. And i generally don'tplay that high(30$)

It had like 35 entries. I played tight most of the time made a couple of bluffs, that worked. Didnt cash though. I think it was top 8 in the money.

I made it out of the late. It was fun and felt like real poker. Not a rentry casino.

I didn't cash but first was around 500 for 35 entries and 2.5 hours of play then I jumped into the 2$ 200 gtd that hit a 1000.. It was just fun

Obv OPs mind will not be changed, and if you guys really just think those 30-60 player fields are awesome than power to you. But why put so much energy into trying to chnging the big field mtts if you dont even play them.

Why do you think that the GI60 $10- $50 are barely getting 20 or 30 entries though while there are other tournaments with the same buyins, starting around the same time, getting 8-12x the number of entires. Perhaps there's just something about playing for lots more money?

Here are results from 6/28 and 6/29. Keep in mind that 6/28 was a sunday (busiest day of week for mtts)

Gone in 60 Tournaments - (I believe several were cancelled due to lack of interest, just copying results from ACR website)

Time Finished Tournament Buy-in RESULT
4:01pm GI60M - $200 GTD PLO8 R/A $2 48 players, covered by $76
7:35pm GI60M - $250 GTD 6-Max $4 60 players, covered by $42
11:29pm GI60M - $150 GTD $3 67 players, covered by $78
10:58pm GI60M - $500 GTD $10 34 players, $160 overlay
11:26pm GI60M - $1,500 GTD $50 20 players, $500 overlay
11:51pm GI60M - $100 GTD Turbo $2 75 players, covered by $116
12:00pm GI60M - $200 GTD PLO8 R/A $2 43 players, covered by $53
3:45pm GI60M - $250 GTD 6 Max $4 40 players, $90 overlay
5:45pm GI60M - $1000 GTD R/A $20 21 players overlay (not sure how big)
7:25pm GI60M - $150 GTD NLHE $3 47 players covered by $20
8:15pm GI60M - $500 GTD NLHE $10 31 players $190 overlay
8:45pm GIS60M - $1500 GTD NLHE $50 17 players $650 overlay


Every GI60M tourney with buyin over $5 barely gets more players than their on demand sngs style tourneys...

spartan you are funny man

Quote:

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Heck yeah. Gi60 rocj

I did a 30$entry for a 600gtd. And if generally don'tplay that high(30$)

It had like 35 entries. I played tight most of the time made a couple of bluffs, that worked. Didnt cash though. I think it was top 8 in the money.

I made it out of the late. It was fun and felt like real poker. Not a rentry casino.

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Did you really not notice that all the GI60s are reentries also?

You really think I'm the nit for prefering to play mtts with several hundred entries and decent money up top instead o these GO6s sng sized ones?

Hi duped no one is saying to take away all your 3 hour late reg. We are saying give us other options so we don't have to play 10 dollar buyins for 8 hours. I don't think there is anything wrong in having other options other then 3 hour plus rentrys is there?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FRANKRIZZO

Hi duped no one is saying to take away all your 3 hour late reg. We are saying give us other options so we don't have to play 10 dollar buyins for 8 hours. I don't think there is anything wrong in having other options other then 3 hour plus rentrys is there?

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I agree 100% Frankie, players should be able to choose from mtts with fields as big as possible, HUSNGs and everything inbetween.


If you check OP and his followup posts though, he seems to think that late reg is actually not making tournaments bigger.

I disagree with pretty much everything the spartan says in first two posts of this thread.

Quote:

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I rallied a whole bunch of posters to complain about th 3hour/5 hour late reg on the majority of there tournaments on all levels..

Proclaiming that people would enter more tournaments and satellites if the late reg was 60 minutes across the board..

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Then shortly after he made thread, I guess they announced GI60 series - setting the stage perfectly...

I kinda rallied the troops on that one.

Granted there not as busy as I would have thought but one of the main complaint of acr was that it was full of nits and regs.

Those people love 3 hour late registration. By the same token 3 hour late was keeping away the rec,s for years.

The gi60 will only grow and attract rec,s to the site..

It's a win/win..

It's only been a week and already people here and 2+2 are saying "il try acr now!" That's because of the gi60 not the 3hour late..

Those tourny entries are not going to shrink but slowly grow. This is the slow season too. When the fall comes and they make a gi60 monthly it will have a devoted following of rec,s and the nits will follow.

There are so many regs and nits in acr, even there complaining on the cash games there no action even in micro stakes. It hours and hours of fold or raise when u absolutely have the nuts. No one gives action.

The gi60 will only grow. It's only been a week.

All the micro surpassed the gtd but most of them are in the low/med. It will grow not shrink and there are working in satalites for them as well....

Unless it's a daily,weekly or monthly mega, online tournanent its not supposed to last for days or even 6,7,8,9 hours.

Just take what druff or Brendan said on the last broadcast and apply it. Nit. ..

. I will confidently say i was the "proverbial straw"..

One embarrassing thing though. When I ttied to guess the name of the tourny and asked about sattilites he responded imidiatltly to my post. I thought I have won the ticket. I was checking from my phone at work and the rest is history.. Not the first time I " dicked myself..but most definitely the proverbial straw of having the 60 late come to fruition!!!!.

I started the thread that was crushing for a couple of weeks and laid heavy in 2 other threads while responding in my own, then the td started his thread to address it while P.M ing me.. I'm new to poker and I'm proud of what happened.

Duped samaraten is just a nit. Nothing wrong with recognizing a job well done. I take your passive aggressive smug remark as a back handed compliment.

I deposited $100 on ACR about 5 months ago. Played for about a month. I actually turned my $100 deposit into over $400 before I donked it off somehow. I think I put most of my roll into the largest tourneys (fk bankroll management, I was taking a shot at a big score). I liked that they offered Omaha tourneys, and the software seemed pretty good.

They never gave me a deposit bonus, not sure what I was supposed to get, but I never bothered to pursue it too hard. I e-mailed support, but they didn't reply. figured it was a scam site to not even reply. Since I busted out, and they didn't reply, I didn't reload.

I absolutely DO NOT want to play a tourney that lasts over 3 hours unless it is a big buyin with a big pay off. I never had any desire to re-deposit due to the lol 3 hour late registration, then they let you rebuy after the registration for awhile also, what a joke. maybe chainsaw thinks tourneys should last forever, but I don't think that is a good structure, definitely not for rec players.

A poker tourney doesn't really start until the rebuy period ends. wtf, you expect me to play on a site where you have to play for hours before the real tourney starts. sure I could enter late, but I don't want to enter a tourney late with <10 big blinds.

Betoline's (BOL) software sucks, but at least they have decent sized fields in many of the evening tourneys. Usually several with over $1K GT, and they usually end in about 3 hours, including the 1 hr rebuy period.

I might take a look at ACR again if what your saying is true, that they getting rid of the 3-4 hr rebuy periods. No Omaha tourneys on BOL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anchordraw

I deposited $100 on ACR about 5 months ago. Played for about a month. I actually turned my $100 deposit into over $400 before I donked it off somehow. I think I put most of my roll into the largest tourneys (fk bankroll management, I was taking a shot at a big score). I liked that they offered Omaha tourneys, and the software seemed pretty good.

They never gave me a deposit bonus, not sure what I was supposed to get, but I never bothered to pursue it too hard. I e-mailed support, but they didn't reply. figured it was a scam site to not even reply. Since I busted out, and they didn't reply, I didn't reload.

I absolutely DO NOT want to play a tourney that lasts over 3 hours unless it is a big buyin with a big pay off. I never had any desire to re-deposit due to the lol 3 hour late registration, then they let you rebuy after the registration for awhile also, what a joke. maybe chainsaw thinks tourneys should last forever, but I don't think that is a good structure, definitely not for rec players.

A poker tourney doesn't really start until the rebuy period ends. wtf, you expect me to play on a site where you have to play for hours before the real tourney starts. sure I could enter late, but I don't want to enter a tourney late with <10 big blinds.

Betoline's (BOL) software sucks, but at least they have decent sized fields in many of the evening tourneys. Usually several with over $1K GT, and they usually end in about 3 hours, including the 1 hr rebuy period.

I might take a look at ACR again if what your saying is true, that they getting rid of the 3-4 hr rebuy periods. No Omaha tourneys on BOL.

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There Not getting rid of the 180 late But adding more normal tournies begrudgingly..

Its Not a scam site call the cs number for any issues..

I agree with your assesment of bol but there scammish..

If u take a poker bonus there of like 100$ the roll over to withdraw is like 8k!!!!

THE BONUS IS A SET UP AT BOL.... try full flush instead..

Acr is the best for new york but they really have that pre bf mentality and still think the economy is gang busters..

If your not grinding 24 tables or fireing multiple bullits in at least there 109$ tournies, they have no use for u..then they all go on forums and complain about the traffic and lack of fish.

There is full flush which is like bol but more honest and acr is good if u navigate the tournies and adjust your game..acr would easily be the better if they can adopt a more accesible strategy..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thesparten

I kinda rallied the troops on that one.

Granted there not as busy as I would have thought but one of the main complaint of acr was that it was full of nits and regs.

Those people love 3 hour late registration. By the same token 3 hour late was keeping away the rec,s for years.

The gi60 will only grow and attract rec,s to the site..

It's a win/win..

It's only been a week and already people here and 2+2 are saying "il try acr now!" That's because of the gi60 not the 3hour late..

Those tourny entries are not going to shrink but slowly grow. This is the slow season too. When the fall comes and they make a gi60 monthly it will have a devoted following of rec,s and the nits will follow.

There are so many regs and nits in acr, even there complaining on the cash games there no action even in micro stakes. It hours and hours of fold or raise when u absolutely have the nuts. No one gives action.

The gi60 will only grow. It's only been a week.

All the micro surpassed the gtd but most of them are in the low/med. It will grow not shrink and there are working in satalites for them as well....

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They finally got rid of the GI60, not sure exactly when, but I know they were regularly getting cancelled and rarely getting more than the min players required to cover.

Guess what I'm really saying to op is I told you so.

Yes they did get rid of them...

The site is 90% mutitabling hard core grinders.

It is the most rec prohibitive environment online..

The whole site and structures and rewards program is solely built for them and there shenanigans. They even encourage seat scripters and the like..

They go out of there way to force feed there regulars with evey nuance possible.

At least they have quite a few 120 minate late reg tournament, s but they also added a lot of 5hour late reg games and a couple of tournament s with 15 minute blinds and 25 levels of late reg (or something like that)..
Lol !!!

With the different blind structures and late reg and corresponding payout structure is all just to help all the uber nit grinders and large bankroll players..
Recs need not apply..

When I mentioned and educated people on 2+2 about that, if recs really knew how acr sets them up to be knocked down by acr in sooo many "nuanced" ways being propagated and encouraged by acr, the recs would be pissed..

They are "artificially" creating an environment to help the grinders make there daily bread..

It's taking someone's money on the "pretense" of playing a "fair" game of poker.

I EVEN BELIEVE!! that the seating at cash tables should be automated.
Meaning u only choose your limits and you are automatically placed at the next available chair..

But grinders are scared to play "fair" poker!!!

I was banned forever from 2+2...

I was scolded by the TD for complaining after the gi60 didn't work i was actually involved (instrumental) with the TD finnally giving in to the 60 minute late tourny...I was banned the day after the scolding.

I still play there but I did have to significantly up my game but it's still not "fair"or fun poker..

Maybe ACR thinks they can be the ANTI PS.. Since so many think PS is now anti-regs. Wouldn't it make sense for some poker room to try and bring in their business?? Granted PS doesn't get traffic from the US that much (other then those who get away with VPNing or live on the border and can go play in another country.).Hell living here in AZ I thought bout figuring a way to be able to at least play weekends on PS in Mexico since I'm only 4hrs from Rocky Point MX on the north end of Gulf of California even found a house for rent for $700USD a month bigger then where I live now but given my situation financially from my back issue I cant make it work right now.(ill post an update later but it sucks my lawyers doing what he can but its turning into a fucking catch 22 other then I have a hearing with AZ Industrial Commission on June 1st that I may have to call off now unless something gives this week, better to w/d hearing and have option to refile then go to hearing and lose outright and be fucked)

Acr is creating a niche for bum hunting nit grinders. The site does pay but it's just a way of creating income under the pretense of playing poker.

I actually made that point on 2+2 that acr has a bunch of
bumhuntung nits players for very long boring sessions..

Where every site is creating an environment where rec can't be hood winked , acr is going in the opposite direction where u have guyes sitting on 24 empty tables(literally).

The site actually help those in the "know" to beat recs by shenanigans not playing "fair" and fun poker..

The sit n go,s are the same way. Endless open tables with guys refusing to play each other, hof..

Even at higher stakes it's just a nit fest playing for rake back.

There is no other viable option for new York. Full flush is going down with payments taking 6 months and tournys never running.

I'm also experimenting with b.o.l. but never forget to JEVER TAKE a 10$ deposit bonus couse u have to take thousands to clear it. That's a scam in itself..

Just bubbled a mtt after 4.5 hours.. Such bullshit. All day to play one online tournament.. No fun.

I guess il just do a sit n go,s and try to avoid the collusion and sit n crush rewards nit grinders.