ChicagoJoey makes a video accusing ACR players multi-accounting/bots/collusion

You see it all the time on Facebook and other poker forums. Fish making claims that "online poker is rigged." Rarely ever does a big name professional poker player, especially one that makes what I assume is most of their income on Online Poker.

ChicagoJoey aka Joey Ingram calls out several individual accounts that he believes are all being ran by 1 person. That 1 person will sit multiple accounts all at the same cash table, and play against unsuspecting players.

Here is the video:

https://youtu.be/yHP2F9auRco

If it weren't for the fact that I know Joey is a relatively intelligent guy with a reputation of being king of the softball / letting people get off easy, this video would make me respect him only a little bit more than thespartan.

But he deserves better than that.

I wish he'd provide some more proof, math, or anything really.

Something isn't right with the WPN network.

They have always shrugged off collusion reports like no big deal. I've reported plenty back in the day and read numerous people reporting the same peoplem, yet they make excuses or dodge the subject.

I'm not sure if they have ever closed any accounts for collusion in the past. If they have they certainly haven't refunded people properly because I never got a dime, nor do I know people who have while on Bovada/Ignition I've received refunds on several occasions.

This is the only bigger network that I know of that don't provide mucked hands at showdown in the hand history. For online integrity purposes this is something that should always be done and why all the other sites do this.

A lot of people claim bots and others suspect internal house accounts are going on with this network to not want to show hole cards at showdown. It would make sense if they do have internal cheating go on because less collusion reports can be provided. Players can still put together educated conclusions based on what certain players are doing in games but providing actual hands isn't easy to do as we don't get to see them at showdown that often.

You could argue that WPN is taking so much of a hit with these million dollar guarantee tournaments while giving away a bunch of tickets and providing the best rakeback/perks in the industry that it's hard to understand why they can continue to do this?

The network has made claims it's expenses they are willing to take on to grow the network but come on seriously how much can you really give away? If their was some internal cheating going on to offset all of what they are giving away then it would make sense that they can afford to do so.

So many questions about things that the network continues to dodge or give terrible responses for.

A rep over on 2+2 his first reply in a thread about plo bots wasn't to defend the site as much as target a guy who has stated numerous times he don't play anymore on there. Here is what the reps response is:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...takes-1695993/

That is the thread and the actual post is #57 : https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...9&postcount=57

People ripped on him hard for that as they should because it's irrelevant and somewhat dodging the topic with a generic response.

WPN still pays for a sponsored thread and Mason will continue to take their money I'm sure unless shit really hits the fan.

Good on Joey for calling them out and hopefully it will lead to more investigating because as I said their entire business model if doing things 100% honestly doesn't add up to being profitable yet they've been able to continue with the same strategy for years now.

Was kind of a pain to dig through the thread an find WinningTDs response so here it is,

Seems to be the only response WinningTD has made in thread.

Quite a lot of accusations were made, very little if any evidence was provided. We give a great deal of trust to the accusations because Joey is a respected member of the community. I think however if your going to make accusations of "superuser" and name accounts that are colluding/same person, you need a high level of evidence/reason/data something to provide the community.

There are huge differences in botting, superusers and collusion. Bots very well could be a distant 3rd importance to the other two, here are my thoughts.

It's important that we at least ASK a few questions and think about our reasons for how we answer these questions.

These are important questions - and because I ask them does not mean I take a stance any particular way, I only think these are important discussions.

1) Are Bots good for, or at least helpful post black Friday online poker?
The line between free range human play, and automation has grown smaller every year consistently. Most winning players are using automation of some sort to some degree. We can debate to what extent automation is "in control" of decision making, but let's not pretend it's fair for fun players that have never heard of HM/PokerTracker, solvers, etc..

2) Are bots simply high tech prop players that take little from the player pool?
are they killing the games in the sense of playing so well that avg players are getting destroyed by them? I am aware that a few years ago the biggest winners on PokerStars low/mid stakes 6max games were bots however was that due to the volume of play or the winrate?

I was disappointed in the Joey video.

I was hoping he would present some numbers, hand histories, or at least SOMETHING proving his assertions.

Oddly, he called out certain screen names, yet didn't provide even one hand history, despite claiming to have spent countless hours studying and observing these players.

Huh?

I'm not saying that Joey is wrong. I trust his feel of the situation more than I trust the shady elements behind ACR, but let's not jump too much on the bandwagon until we sort this out further.

I will discuss this more on radio on Wednesday. Hopefully Joey will release more by then.

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As johnnysprinkles said above, Joey is making so many different accusations that it's a bit tough to take them all seriously, as they are all separate.

Superusing, colluding, and botting don't necessarily go together. Collusion and botting can (because those are indicative of lax security, plus bots can collude), but superusing is entirely different. A superuser does not need to collude or use bots, as he already has a tremendous advantage.

Yes, it's possible all three are happening, but honestly Joey's claims about the colluding and botting sound more credible than his claims of superusing.

We're going to need to see some evidence before concluding much more.

To answer johnnysprinkles' other question, YES, botting is cheating, and is far worse than using HUDs. And yes, at least at low-mid stakes, bots are big winners, especially if they are sharing hole card information with one another. Even "fair playing" bots will typically crush low and mid stakes, due to volume, a tough-to-exploit style, and lack of fatigue/emotion/human error.

I should also point out that bots have long been a problem on the smaller and mid-sized networks, dating back many years.

I proved back in 2009 that there were certain bots routinely in the limit holdem games on Bodog, but nothing was done. In fact, when I took countermeasures by tricking one of the bots into playing more than 80 consecutive hands against me where I got the button every time, the bot operator complained and Bodog threatened to ban me if I did it again. I spoke to one of the higher managers there, who basically told me that I had "no proof" it was a bot (lol), and that I had no right to exploit that glitch no matter who the opponent was. I asked him how any high volume, winning player could ever let another regular winner (me) take the button against him 80 consecutive times, and he didn't have an answer for that. Back in those days, everyone had screen names, so there wasn't even the explanation that he didn't realize he was playing someone competent. I was a high volume limit holdem regular there and everyone on the site knew I was one of the top winners there.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I was disappointed in the Joey video.

I was hoping he would present some numbers, hand histories, or at least SOMETHING proving his assertions.

Oddly, he called out certain screen names, yet didn't provide even one hand history, despite claiming to have spent countless hours studying and observing these players.

Huh?

I'm not saying that Joey is wrong. I trust his feel of the situation more than I trust the shady elements behind ACR, but let's not jump too much on the bandwagon until we sort this out further.

I will discuss this more on radio on Wednesday. Hopefully Joey will release more by then.

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As johnnysprinkles said above, Joey is making so many different accusations that it's a bit tough to take them all seriously, as they are all separate.

Superusing, colluding, and botting don't necessarily go together. Collusion and botting can (because those are indicative of lax security, plus bots can collude), but superusing is entirely different. A superuser does not need to collude or use bots, as he already has a tremendous advantage.

Yes, it's possible all three are happening, but honestly Joey's claims about the colluding and botting sound more credible than his claims of superusing.

We're going to need to see some evidence before concluding much more.

To answer johnnysprinkles' other question, YES, botting is cheating, and is far worse than using HUDs. And yes, at least at low-mid stakes, bots are big winners, especially if they are sharing hole card information with one another. Even "fair playing" bots will typically crush low and mid stakes, due to volume, a tough-to-exploit style, and lack of fatigue/emotion/human error.

I should also point out that bots have long been a problem on the smaller and mid-sized networks, dating back many years.

I proved back in 2009 that there were certain bots routinely in the limit holdem games on Bodog, but nothing was done. In fact, when I took countermeasures by tricking one of the bots into playing more than 80 consecutive hands against me where I got the button every time, the bot operator complained and Bodog threatened to ban me if I did it again. I spoke to one of the higher managers there, who basically told me that I had "no proof" it was a bot (lol), and that I had no right to exploit that glitch no matter who the opponent was. I asked him how any high volume, winning player could ever let another regular winner (me) take the button against him 80 consecutive times, and he didn't have an answer for that. Back in those days, everyone had screen names, so there wasn't even the explanation that he didn't realize he was playing someone competent. I was a high volume limit holdem regular there and everyone on the site knew I was one of the top winners there.

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I agree with almost everything here Druff. I too was working to get the HU bots on FTP off the site back in '09-'10 not really because they were hard to beat, they were "decent" but my winrate vs the average player was far better and the bots were getting a bigger piece of the pie because of the volume they would play. I have often wondered if I were playing full ring/6max if it would have been better to have them fill more tables vs have them destroyed. I could be delusional in this idea and it might be catastrophic :) I only play Heads up..

what is the formula you use to determine if bots should be kicked off?

If bot is losing 1bb/100 but making money from RB/Bonus do we turn away since we profit in game?
If bot is slightly winning maybe .5-1bb/100 how do we feel?

I think you agree these situations are far different than bots winning 10bb/100 is that correct assumption?

I just want to gauge where we agree or disagree as far as ethics aside, what is better for the poker eco-system..

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Originally Posted by johnysprinkles

1) Are Bots good for, or at least helpful post black Friday online poker?
The line between free range human play, and automation has grown smaller every year consistently. Most winning players are using automation of some sort to some degree. We can debate to what extent automation is "in control" of decision making, but let's not pretend it's fair for fun players that have never heard of HM/PokerTracker, solvers, etc..

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full disclosure, I use a HUD...

theres a huge difference between me playing with a HUD and me designing a bot to play exactly like I do...

1. the bot will always play an A game regardless of whether it's an hour or 11 hours into a session...a human, no matter how well trained in playing long sessions, will show slippage in play from hour 1 to 11...
2. bot will always play perfect frequencies in every spot...
3. bot will never tilt...

probably missing some, but there's at least a few reasons how they are totally different...

I was in no way comparing the use of a HUD to having a full blown bot. My point was that automation being used has increased and become more powerful and there are many scripts, scrapers, solvers etc, out there that are being used. most of it is impossible to detect.

Also, I am a bit skeptical as to how profitable these bots are. I've heard everything from "barely winning - huge crusher" I think this is important to find out..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I was disappointed in the Joey video.

I was hoping he would present some numbers, hand histories, or at least SOMETHING proving his assertions.

Oddly, he called out certain screen names, yet didn't provide even one hand history, despite claiming to have spent countless hours studying and observing these players.

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The problem is they WPN don't have mucked hands at showdown in the hand history so providing proof is a tough task to do. People can report suspicious activity but WPN could easily not investigate even though they can see the hands and the players can't.

This is nothing new lots of collusion and botting reports have been going on for several years. In the hyper turbo HU sngs they were dominated by guys from Saint Petersberg, Russia for a long time. While most of the original names are gone it don't mean they can't hop on another skin to play.

The use of multiple skins is another thing if some person has two computers with two different internet sources they could play on multiple accounts at the same table and get away with it forever because WPN doesn't seem to care.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnysprinkles

I was in no way comparing the use of a HUD to having a full blown bot. My point was that automation being used has increased and become more powerful and there are many scripts, scrapers, solvers etc, out there that are being used. most of it is impossible to detect.

Also, I am a bit skeptical as to how profitable these bots are. I've heard everything from "barely winning - huge crusher" I think this is important to find out..

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on acr the bots don't need to be profitable to work...they merely need to be slightly losing at worst and youll make a killing...if I could make a PLO bot to play 0.25/0.50 for 40K hands a week I think (don't quote me on this cause I don't know the exact number, but I think my estimate is decent) I could generate around 17,500-20,000 beast points every week...most weeks this will get you $1,000 in rake race money...so that's $52,000 per year PLUS your combat points...honestly don't know how to estimate how many points you would get by year end, but lets say that's 300K to be VERY conservative...if you start off as a general that's $22,600 in rakeback...so all in all your slightly profitable/losing bot generated almost $75,000...you live in some third world shithole you are livin the good life off of $75,000...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GambleBotsChafedPenis

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnysprinkles

I was in no way comparing the use of a HUD to having a full blown bot. My point was that automation being used has increased and become more powerful and there are many scripts, scrapers, solvers etc, out there that are being used. most of it is impossible to detect.

Also, I am a bit skeptical as to how profitable these bots are. I've heard everything from "barely winning - huge crusher" I think this is important to find out..

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on acr the bots don't need to be profitable to work...they merely need to be slightly losing at worst and youll make a killing...if I could make a PLO bot to play 0.25/0.50 for 40K hands a week I think (don't quote me on this cause I don't know the exact number, but I think my estimate is decent) I could generate around 17,500-20,000 beast points every week...most weeks this will get you $1,000 in rake race money...so that's $52,000 per year PLUS your combat points...honestly don't know how to estimate how many points you would get by year end, but lets say that's 300K to be VERY conservative...if you start off as a general that's $22,600 in rakeback...so all in all your slightly profitable/losing bot generated almost $75,000...you live in some third world shithole you are livin the good life off of $75,000...

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This is one of my points, if the bot is barely winning and making all it's money from RakeBack then it would be better to have bots than to not have them. they would help fill tables/games for us... Why are we so bent on destroying bots that barely break-even?

A followup, If bots are sitting same table and sharing cards that would be terrible for the games. I guess there is a good possibility that is going on? but we cannot know 100% until we get info from operators somehow.

Just a couple of more reasons global rocks

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Hopefully the video makes it out in time for tonight's radio show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBo3PhOg8wQ

Ok, CJ is pretty clearly on to something. I think that's clear now. Watched a part of his 2nd video (that one ^^^) and a guy on 2p2 said it best:

"(This loophole of late reg. has) been exploited within WPN/APR for years. For those unaware: WPN/APR allows for extremely long registration periods (~3 hours), and allows for those joining at the last minute to all be seated together."

Come on. 3 hours of late registration? This is the site's own greediness (to pull in casual bystander players for an additional 3 hours after start) and incompetence (see what CJ says about the Poker room security/manager guy named Dan) and I wouldn't want to play on the Winning Network.

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Originally Posted by BeerAndPoker

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I was disappointed in the Joey video.

I was hoping he would present some numbers, hand histories, or at least SOMETHING proving his assertions.

Oddly, he called out certain screen names, yet didn't provide even one hand history, despite claiming to have spent countless hours studying and observing these players.

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The problem is they WPN don't have mucked hands at showdown in the hand history so providing proof is a tough task to do. People can report suspicious activity but WPN could easily not investigate even though they can see the hands and the players can't.

This is nothing new lots of collusion and botting reports have been going on for several years. In the hyper turbo HU sngs they were dominated by guys from Saint Petersberg, Russia for a long time. While most of the original names are gone it don't mean they can't hop on another skin to play.

The use of multiple skins is another thing if some person has two computers with two different internet sources they could play on multiple accounts at the same table and get away with it forever because WPN doesn't seem to care.

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The wpn rep just tottaly ignores a deflects from the mucked cards..

I never understood the mucked cards thing either.. They have updated and added tins of features but are unable to fix mucked cards,, lol..

W.p.n. keeps on tottally ignoring the complaints for mucked card for YEARS and just deflects the complaints or tottaly ignores them..

I think this will end up very bad for them. At this point its obvious if it wasnt before..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBo3PhOg8wQ


Interesting.

The loophole Joey is describing was told to me privately a few days ago by someone else.

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Originally Posted by thesparten

Just a couple of more reasons global rocks

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Hate to tell you Sparten but there is a well known bot program which can and does play on Global Poker

If ya don’t believe me check out www.pokerbot.com