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Im waiting to hear from Jimmy as to whether or not he wants to bet. Jimmy, $20 says he ends up with maybe a slap on the wrist or nothing happening to him.
agreed?
Edit: Come on, Jimmy....you were sitting in this thread until 10:15 and I even PM'd you, and now you left.
Anyone else? Apparently no one wants to back up their talk.
I wasnt at the scene. I dont have all the facts. I dont know the laws. Outside of some info I received from someone, all I have to go on is the information that I read and see in the press. I personally thought the shooting was excessive. I personally think there were some very questionable things done by the police in this situation, in particular, the audio on the film being missing. (as of this week, I now have more info on that). I very well could be totally wrong in this, as Gallo pointed out.
I know people have opinions, thoughts, beliefs and feelings about this case...and I get it. But, the LAW is likely the most important thing to consider here, and without an understanding of it, this looks like murder to many. Im speculating as to what will happen, but there have recently been so many things that have happened to the police here, that were CLEAR AND ABSOLUTE laws broken against THEM, and they were all dismissed or thrown out. In the protests, a cop got punched and now has a detached retina. It was captured on video and was sent to court. It was tossed out before being tried. Totally absurd. The protesters were allowed to stand inches away from the police and scream into bullhorns, causing some to suffer hearing issues. Nothing happened to the protesters. Protesters injured a cops wrist. Nothing happened to protesters. The mother of the kid who was shot fleeing police came out and made threats against the cop and his children. Nothing happened to her. This is now such a massive issue, that the court of public opinion and pressure could alter this case. The cop could be sacrificed to quiet the masses so the city doesnt burn.
HOWEVER
the information that I was given below is what I believe more than what the press and media have put out there
In the past, Police Officers [PO's] were allowed to use lethal force to stop a fleeing felon. We called this the "fleeing Felon" rule.
That rule was updated by the supreme court, case Tennessee vs. Garner, which changed the requirement to a fleeing felon who posed an immediate threat (had a weapon, was near people)...OR...was attempting to escape while armed with a weapon likely to cause great bodily harm or death (such as...a knife).
When an officer uses lethal force, the mental state required to show intent, MUST be objective, NOT subjective. Basically, this means that intent must be determined from the view of an officer having only a split second to make a decision. The case law for this is under Graham.
Once lethal force is legally authorized, there is no standard as to How Much lethal force is authorized. A bullet and a bomb accomplish the same. One shot, 5 shots, 16 shots...legally no difference.
First, (and my personal opinion as to what happened) is the tendency for a officer/soldier to get tunnel vision during a shooting (not know how many times they shoot, not know other things going on during the shooting, basically, not realize anything other the their front sights on the gun). This condition is well documented (combat stress/tunnel vision), in particular by LtCol. David Grossman (yes, he is the US expert in this, and yes, he is a regular lecturer for CPD).
Second, how many times was the offender hit? NOT how many times he was actually hit (which can only be determined after the fact), but how many times did the officer believe the offender was hit? (hint, the national law enforcement hit average is LESS than 25%. The fact that the officer hit with every shot actually strongly supports the officer having "tunnel vision", which while unfortunate, is not "unjustified intention to kill").
Third, there will always be a question as to which bullet, if any in specific, caused an incapacitating wound. In this case, the offender, while hit 16 times, was only hit center mass 3 times, and only one hit a vital organ. To argue that 16 shots were too many, brings into play the necessity to know which shot/shots were the mortal wounds. This is another reason why, once lethal force is legally approved, the amount of force is moot. Put another way, if the first shot was legal, and the mortal wound, then the following 15 shots were not murder.
Fourth, the offender was STILL HOLDING THE KNIFE, even after he was shot 16 times. It wasn't until his partner kicked the knife out of his hands that the "threat" was ended. While some may take issue with this mentality, be aware that this mentality is EXACTLY how we are trained at the academy (Shoot until he drops the weapon).
Final point to consider...the offender did not die on scene, he died in the ambulance, on the way to the hospital. (note, calling for an ambulance is the ONLY "medical aid" that a police officer is expected to provide. We are not paramedics).
Legally, issues of racism don't matter. Legally, the number of shots doesn't matter. The fact that other officers didn't shoot the offender, doesn't matter. The number of complaints against the officer prior to the shooting, doesn't matter. That they were waiting for an officer with a Tazer to arrive, doesn't matter. The 100 other things that could have been done, or that other people wish would have been done, doesn't matter.
The officer being in fear of his life would matter. His having personal experience with persons on PCP, being aware the offender had committed numerous offenses, in the presence of police, and refused to stop, after numerous commands spanning over 10 minutes, would support his feelings.
The officer was stopping a person who had committed a forcible felony, and was trying to escape with a weapon capable of great bodily harm or death, would matter. The fact that offender committed numerous forcible felonies, in the presence of other officers, and refused commands for over 10 minutes to stop, would support the feeling that the offender was not going to stop his actions without the use of lethal force.
Either of the above defenses could apply
And remember, the officer never said "I was afraid for my life", at any time. In fact, he never made any report for this incident (nor would any other officer involved in a shooting), so any statements being attributed to the officer are false.
Keep all of this in mind when seeing things like this in the press/media in the future. The trial likely wont be for around a year. They are going to try to get a change of venue and get it out of Chicago, so this will add a few extra months.
Also, the Police NEVER covered this up. The police have 48 hours to complete their work on this case. They ruled it essentially as not being an issue and moved on. Other entities would have had the case in their possession if anything was in question, so if anyone or any media is saying that the police covered this up, it is completely false.
After the police investigation, the case was given to IPRA. IPRA never moved to fire the officer. The case was presented to the States attorneys office (as all police shootings are) to see if prosecution was appropriate. Anita Alvarez (State's Attorney) has a history of aggressively prosecuting police officers. The states Attorneys office did not place charges against the officer. The case, after being reviewed by the States Attorneys office, was referred (by the states attorneys office) to the Feds, to see if the officer could be charged with civil rights violations, and the feds declined.
The video showed a white police officer killing a black male. The mayor had paid off the family, Prior to a civil suit being filed, to keep the video from being released, to keep the city from rioting, and to keep the black vote due to his re-election at stake. The mayor's office had full access to this case since it occurred, and was given the case prior to his decision to pay off the family. The mayor's office took no action against the officer at this time. The video of the incident is ugly. There were many rumors, prior to the release of the video, that it showed a white police officer "assassinating" a black male. The city lost their court case to keep the video sealed. Anita Alvarez did not file charges until the video was about to be released to the media. Anita Alvarez wants the black vote, and she is now up for re-election. Kim Foxx, a black female, and Cook County official, is challenging Anita Alvarez for States Attorney. The criminal case will not be heard until well after the election.
Let me know about the $20 wager, Jimmy. You can just rep here with a YES or NO.
Edit: can someone please quote this so Jimmy doesnt miss it and claim I was on IGNORE? thx
please clarify.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRK Star
I would have to get clarification from them. I know they dont treat people, in those circumstances, and are to call for ambulances or paramedics to handle the situation.
If you are questioning whether or not they are capable of administering some type of medical help (in some circumstances), one could speculate that they have minimal basic knowledge, however, Im sure criminal defense attorneys, ready to sue for a papercut that their HS Graduate/Felon got while fleeing the police during an armed robbery, would sue for not applying some type of soothing salve to the wound, they didnt bandage up properly.
They stay out of that.
maybe i'm misreading your post or misinformed but you are referring to police officers as 'we' in both sentences.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRK Star
are you a police officer?
no. Im in Sales. I have nothing to do with law enforcement. sorry for the confusion. that is what I was given by the officers. He was referring to himself (and other cops).
all that information was given to me, and I copy/pasted almost all of what they gave me
I have a feeling this is closer to reality than DRK Star would like to think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Guy
Like they cant just do that any time they want
Corrigan,
You should be the one taking that advice. If you go back in this thread, your logic has been completely off. You offer no facts on anything, and just pull shit out of your ass.
I just provided a SHIT TON of information, that you cant get anywhere else, and instead of just sitting there, reading it, and processing it, you tell me to log off.
$20 bet offered to you as well, since you think Im completely wrong. Rep YES or NO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrigan
So, the cop has a shitty haircut. So what?
Burger King - They wanted video evidence of him going apeshit all around the outside of the BK. Both IPRA AND the FBI both stated that the video wasnt tampered with and that the security system sucked and had issues. IPRA is an INDEPENDENT Agency, created to make sure that the police are doing things by the book, similar to Internal Affairs, so again, you are talking out of your ass and wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorriganQuote:
Originally Posted by Suicide King
And then have all the other officers lie about what happened (got charged at with a knife). and go across the street and delete a suveillance video.
but go ahead DRK and cry us a river with your copy-pastes from an anonymous cop blog saying how they just can't do their job anymore.
Fuck outta here
14-15 times is irrelevant, because you have ZERO understanding of how the laws work here. SK is clueless and is stating that because HE FEELS that its too much. Go and read what I posted earlier so you can get a better understanding of how many times they can shoot him, or drop a bomb on him, or run him over with their car. That Blog is pretty useful for getting info, but do you think that is the ONLY place I get my information? I have access to a veteran Chicago cop or two with a thorough understanding of the laws involved.
Cops are too stupid to get away with WHAT?....doing their fucking job? EVERYONE involved in looking at this case, from the police, to IPRA, to the States Attorney's office (who is notoriously harsh on investigating the police), to the FBI, ALL passed on pressing any charges and, in essence, said that there was nothing wrong with this. Again, talking out of your clueless ass.
Fuck outta here with my facts and truths and shit....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrigan
There is no proof of ANY coverup. People that get arrested tend to not like the police who are arresting them, and now is their golden chance to protest the fuck out of the cops. If officers cover up for others, they should and will be punished, but until then, dont act like you know dick about this case. You saw a short video and my 13 year old daughter has a much thorough understanding of the laws involved with this now, than you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrigan
What in Holy Fuck are you talking about?! Dictionary definition of corruption? WHERE? You have no clue what fucking took place in this case. Why should he have been off the force years before? Due to what? Jesus Christ, you are simply fucking stupid. Talk out of your ass some more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrigan
Again, watch some more TV and buy into their stories of deleted tapes, you dolt. You know NOTHING about what took place there, but please, by all means, act like you do and toss around accusations. Moron.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrigan
Again, you are going to ridicule the guy and suggest he is an idiot because he has a bad haircut?...
Actually, you may finally have a point there...
Stop posting in this thread....seriously....this is fucking horrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRK Star
What is horrible is all the fucking ignorance in this thread. Whether you realize it or not, your ignorance, like the ignorance of many the Black Lives Matter protesters, is going to send major cities into downward spirals. While everyone judges (while having NO facts), the cities and police forces, are getting crippled. For an idea as to what is next for Chicago, Baltimore police have stopped being proactive for the last 4 months. Reported Crime (not all crime....just the crimes that are reported) is up more than 2x normal.
While you keep accusing the police, before you wait for trials, its hurting everyone. IL now has the greatest percentage of people GTFO of the state, due to all the bullshit.
Im trying to provide some solid information, and you can do with it whatever you want, but to sit here and tell me to shut the fuck up is disturbing. I dont know if you just simply dont like the info, or maybe its the fact that you just hate police and want to see them go down, but its really fucking sad watching so many people take the attitudes and make blind accusations they way they do. If this cop is found guilty of anything, I (and so should you) want to see it done in a court of law, based on evidence and facts. I DO NOT want to see him found guilty because Blacks are revolting and threatening to fuck up my city unless they get a guilty verdict. They are already getting everything they want and its fucking wrong and illegal, and there isnt a god damn thing the city will do to stop them. Punch a cop, go free. Injure a cop, go free, shakedown store owners, go free. Threaten a cop and his children, go free. Its become a race war, instead of a "wow, my race is a fucking nightmare, killing each other, how can we fix this together?" Lets blame the cop, when there are stats (http://heyjackass.com/) showing that blacks are killing/shooting each other at alarming rates. Lets protest until we get free shit. Lets protest until our civil leaders can get paid off. Give us healthcare while you are at it (this is pretty much free anyway, as hardly anyone in the dangerous areas gives their real names at the hospitals and gets all their issues taken care of on the taxpayers dime). But yeah, go ahead and blame the cop who was doing his fucking job, because you "Think" you know the facts...
it fucking kills me how shitty this is, and the cops are going to sit back now and give these people what they want. The good people in the city are going to suffer immensely. The assholes will get everything they want.
My rant is done. If anyone wants any further info on any Chicago stories related to this or other newsworthy Chicago crimes, PM me.
You know what's really horrible in this thread?
Somebody telling everybody else for 17 pages what we saw on a video isn't real.
I like you DRK, but seriously, fuck off with this shit.Quote:
Comments
DRK Star: Never said that. Ignorant comment.
How the fuck would I claim a video is not real? Its fucking real.
I have never said anything claiming it wasnt real.
And I like you too, btw
Tight Xmas dork
We cuddled up, watched Mission Impossible and ate Chinese food... maybe next year sirQuote:
Originally Posted by Suicide King
Hopefully on your bearskin rug by the fireplace with a nice bottle of wine
lol didn't you spend a few christmas days in the can?Quote:
Originally Posted by Suicide King
Absolutely not.Quote:
Originally Posted by big dicklol didn't you spend a few christmas days in the can?Quote:
Originally Posted by Suicide King
Ok good happy to hear! Merry xmas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Guy
He said we aren't qualified to review the video, (w/out a law degree.)
And that the Van Dyke video................'he isn't walking away'.
I actually think this latest one, w/the apology is a step up for Chicago PD.
If all this shit didn't happen, we'd be hearing about how a 55 yr old Grandmother charged the officer and he thought his life was in danger.
Chicago Police Shooting of Grandmother, Teen Draws Criticism
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/c...icism-35970453
...The fatal shooting of Jones, 55, and 19-year-old Quintonio LeGrier, a college student visiting his father for the holiday, at a West Side apartment has raised further questions about a police department already under intense scrutiny..........."Why do (police) have to shoot first and ask questions later?"
Seriously, They are way to quick to the draw.
they haven't had a cop killed by gunfire in over 5 years...its not like they are under siege..
Honestly its people like Drk Star that make people o.k with these police forces in the U.S which are often grossly overstaffed over-aggressive and full of FAT.
If people learned how to do a little more self-policing (within reason), then we wouldn't need these massively over staffed police forces suckin taxpayer money up. Even in affluent/cushy little towns with little to no crime. Their isn't actually (imo) anything wrong with two people settling a difference. Not everything should have to be done via a 'court of law', which means they get skin in the game. If people would self police one another a little more, I think that would go along way and we wouldn't need a lot of these fat over staffed cops sucking up mad overtime in cushy little towns across America. And even ones with little to no crime at all. Of course nerds like Drk Star think they need police to do all the self policing for them.
Drk Star you make my skin crawl with all the massive pussy in how you act and think about this stuff... awww i need the police, ohhh i need the police. Sure for some things they need to exist, but to the extent they do today and with the way they trap people to raise revenue to balance town budgets etc is fuckign pathetic. It would save a lot of money if people like Drk Star grew a pair and learned a little about how to man up and handle things without having to think by default, ohhh lets just call the police. Playing right into their crooked fkn game/racket.
Without cops, who would arrest dad beaters?Quote:
Originally Posted by garrett
Hardly ANY facts out about this last shooting, and TONS of bad information being spread by the media. Wait for facts.
I'll pay $$ to anyone who thinks they know what happened and can claim it. The PR team for the police sucks hard. Very shitty journalistic efforts right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by garrett
see above. Not sure at all where you are going with that speech. I agree with many parts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyG_415
Oh, look!...its Jimmy. The guy who was all talk, but didnt want to back it up with the wager. Hi!
Do YOU know what happened that night? Can you state with accuracy that they were "quick on the draw"? Did YOU see the incident?
They havent had a cop killed by gunfire in 5 years.....doesnt that in essence show that they are doing a good job of staying alive? What is your point?....are they supposed to lose a life? Under Siege?....kid, do you know ANYTHING about the south side of Chicago? If you saw stats, you would know that its one of the most dangerous places in the US. Define "Under Siege".
Go back to your nap Jimmy. One of these days, the "Fact Fairy" will visit your bedside and plant a bag full under your pillow, and you will then be able to carry on an intellectual conversation.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools, cause people from a distance can't tell who is who. Jimmy fought for years that Kaepernick was god. Debating anything with him lowers your own IQQuote:
Originally Posted by DRK StarQuote:
Originally Posted by JimmyG_415
Oh, look!...its Jimmy. The guy who was all talk, but didnt want to back it up with the wager. Hi!
Do YOU know what happened that night? Can you state with accuracy that they were "quick on the draw"? Did YOU see the incident?
They havent had a cop killed by gunfire in 5 years.....doesnt that in essence show that they are doing a good job of staying alive? What is your point?....are they supposed to lose a life? Under Siege?....kid, do you know ANYTHING about the south side of Chicago? If you saw stats, you would know that its one of the most dangerous places in the US. Define "Under Siege".
Go back to your nap Jimmy. One of these days, the "Fact Fairy" will visit your bedside and plant a bag full under your pillow, and you will then be able to carry on an intellectual conversation.
You can continue to read the media about the two deaths, and hear how they each put out information, and how the narrative tries to steer you in a certain way.
Here are some facts:
The father called 911 and said "I am in fear of my life" when discussing what was going on at his house.
The mother stated that her son was put on meds for his mental issues back in September, but she told him to STOP TAKING THEM.
The police responded and showed up at the house.
Shots were fired. I believe 7 shots, but read on two sites 8, so not sure about that.
A woman, who was behind a door (possibly out of sight of the police) was hit with a bullet. The press reports "accidentally", as if to suggest that the cop was trying to intentionally kill this woman, whom they may not have even known was behind a door.
The race of the police officer has not been revealed. (theoretically, this shouldnt matter, but you cant start a race war until you know he was white. He was probably mexican, according to other info I read).
The kid was wielding a bat (which legally is considered a deadly weapon, and use of force laws now apply).
anything pretty much outside of that is speculation and media running with shit that will get you to click their links and drive up $$$$$$$
But please, tell me all about what happened here...
Jimmy,
Would it shock you that in 2015, there were were a lot less deaths due to cop shootings than in 2014 and 2013? Wouldnt that suggest that things are getting better?
And in relation to how many people are in this city, Chicago has a very small amount of them.
do some reading here
www.heyjackass.com
i dont want to say its a sad website when drk is raping you idiots but it has to be said
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyG_415
I forgot to add a few things here, that are important.
1. I dont remember ever saying you arent qualified to review a video without having a law degree. You can review it all you want. However, what YOU see (without thorough knowledge of the laws involved) is going to be assessed and reviewed differently from someone who DOES know the laws.
2. 'He Isnt Walking Away". Well, for one thing, you can see that as he crossed the street, he was walking diagonally and not directly at the police, however, when he hits the dotted white line, he starts to go along the path of that line, raises his arm with the knife and points it in the direction of the police, and also looks at them. This will play a role in the officer's defense.
3. Did you know that they had the legal right to shoot him EVEN if he was walking in the total opposite direction he was in? Im guessing you didnt. He was Fleeing the scene (legal definition) after he had committed a felony(s) and was a danger to people in the area, and deadly force can be applied.
When you see people arguing these points that "he din do nuffin" and "he was mindin his own bizness", you can understand now that they are wrong and dont know the laws.
Rahm was apparently feeling some empathy for the latest shooting victims/casualties.
He sent one of his aides to the vigil that was being held for them this evening.
Lets see how that worked out....
http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/7/7...olice-shooting
Emanuel aide attacked at vigil for victims of police shooting
PLEASE WATCH THIS VIDEO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmeJhJ-Qxh8
I know its 45 min, but everything we have all been going back and forth about will be covered thoroughly and extremely well, in this video. It also discusses several other things that you guys have brought up, and I promise it will be worth it. I have no idea who made it, but great job.
there is minimal audio during the first half, but its not necessary.
Make Popcorn and a cocktail
Up for CORRIGAN, JIMMY G, SYSOP and MUCK
Dig in, fellas.
Seriously, do you have some kind of mental illness where you need everyone to agree with everything you say or you can't sleep?Quote:
Originally Posted by DRK Star