You’re wrong. This was going to be a massive clusterfuck no matter when it happened. Maybe Trump the master of the deal could have negotiated safe passage.Quote:
Originally Posted by country978
You’re wrong. This was going to be a massive clusterfuck no matter when it happened. Maybe Trump the master of the deal could have negotiated safe passage.Quote:
Originally Posted by country978
I dont disagree with you at all, Walter. I don't blame Biden for the clusterfuck at all anymore than I would blame Trump. But that does not alleviate my concern with his health and leadership.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter SobchakYou’re wrong. This was going to be a massive clusterfuck no matter when it happened. Maybe Trump the master of the deal could have negotiated safe passage.Quote:
Originally Posted by country978
Fair enough, but he’s actually in great health. If you dislike his leadership, that’s a personal preference and understandable. But reports of his ill health and senility are false and have been cooked up by his opponents and repeated infinitely by hostile news outlets that are more interested in attacking him than reporting the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by country978I dont disagree with you at all, Walter. I don't blame Biden for the clusterfuck at all anymore than I would blame Trump. But that does not alleviate my concern with his health and leadership.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak
I sure do hope you're right. I realize he's always had a stutter but I've watched him act in moments as if he is not there. I try to dismiss it as his stutter and to be objective and fair and still I am uneasy about his mental state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter SobchakFair enough, but he’s actually in great health. If you dislike his leadership, that’s a personal preference and understandable. But reports of his ill health and senility are false and have been cooked up by his opponents and repeated infinitely by hostile news outlets that are more interested in attacking him than reporting the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by country978
also, walter whether we like it or not he is politically weak right now health issue or no health issue. He is getting shredded for the evacuation by millions of people who never previously cared about what was going on there. I don't think its always fair to credit or blame presidents for things that overlap presidencies but that's what many people do. Much worse things may be yet to come there and fair or not he is going to be blamed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter SobchakFair enough, but he’s actually in great health. If you dislike his leadership, that’s a personal preference and understandable. But reports of his ill health and senility are false and have been cooked up by his opponents and repeated infinitely by hostile news outlets that are more interested in attacking him than reporting the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by country978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter SobchakFair enough, but he’s actually in great health. If you dislike his leadership, that’s a personal preference and understandable. But reports of his ill health and senility are false and have been cooked up by his opponents and repeated infinitely by hostile news outlets that are more interested in attacking him than reporting the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by country978
And all this time I thought Walter didn’t have much of a sense of humor. Turns out he is a funny guy!
Good one Walt!
If the past is prologue for losers then consider that after 10 years in Afghanistan the Soviet Union under Gorbachev almost immediately collapsed in ‘91 after their pulloutQuote:
Originally Posted by DalyQuote:
Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak
And all this time I thought Walter didn’t have much of a sense of humor. Turns out he is a funny guy!
Good one Walt!
I saw Bush’s nation building buddy Tony Blair had a piece in the Daily Mail. What an idiot he continues to be. On the other side of the pond the Bush team is silent. No thoughts? Of course not.
Our national politics has been a clown show for years. The best and brightest
Something is seriously wrong with us.
Don't believe the propaganda Walt if you are critical of biden you will still be black I'm 99% sure on this one
So the Pentagon has some strategy to engage the young men from the isolated villages to fight the Taliban. They pay them, train them, teach them to read.
OBL and Al Quaeda didn’t mean much to them. That was our beef.
They had no loyalty to Kabul and Ghani. They were Americans, Ghani pretty much grew up in the states. Fighting alongside the Americans was just a gig.
So military intelligence was so surprised when the mercenary gig ran out they quit.
The oxymoron “military intelligence” was a George Carlin joke , right?
I have long said that when you carpet bomb their families and they have no prospects the US has a problem.
I joked about encouraging industry like Nike or Tesla over there. Mining might be more serious.
Over the course of 20 years you coulda used some of those trillions to set up some serious education besides how to fix a Ford F-150 or clean a rifle.
A country that isn’t illiterate and has some prospects isn’t planning a fatwa against Us.
If you think that when the remaining troops get on the planes on August 31st that the Afghanistan chapter is closed you too are a fucking idiot.
This ain’t over by a long shot.
I need to reload. Give me a bit.
I have been.Quote:
Originally Posted by JACKDANIELS
This should be good. Anxious to hear more of what you have to say. So....reload and get to it already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanlmar
I am hearing planes are talking off that aren’t anywhere near full. That’s not particularly the result of anyone but the Taliban.Quote:
Originally Posted by MumblesBadly
I just don’t see how 5-6000 troops are going to be evacuated last but let’s see.
Some MAGA version versions of “thoughts and prayers” for our Afghan allies seeking refugee status from their now-Taliban-controlled country. You know, the same Taliban that Team Trump negotiated a “surrender agreement” with that year, with a planned departure/abandonment date of May 1 of this year.
https://youtu.be/BaChdIiS5FY
They'll get out because they're the marines. I believe they have to fight to get out but they'll get out. Me trying to be optimistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by SanlmarI am hearing planes are talking off that aren’t anywhere near full. That’s not particularly the result of anyone but the Taliban.Quote:
Originally Posted by MumblesBadly
I just don’t see how 5-6000 troops are going to be evacuated last but let’s see.
I have no doubt they will but “how” will be interesting. If the the Taliban has any brains they will help them onto the planes and wave goodbye.Quote:
Originally Posted by country978They'll get out because they're the marines. I believe they have to fight to get out but they'll get out. Me trying to be optimistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanlmar
Bush did come out with a statement that he felt withdrawal was a mistake. He kept returning to protecting the women as the reason. I haven’t given it much time yet. Apparently no one else has either.
Nation building to the bitter end.
Someone will hopefully do piece revisiting Trump’s decision to exit Afghanistan. It really was an astounding thing. I don’t think I fully appreciate what he did yet.
Absolute incompetence.
If you don't have 10 minutes to spare, jump to the 2 minute mark and watch a few minutes from there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh1qrobwiL8
The most powerful country in the world is getting pwned hard by primitive militants, and this dummy wants to just have "conversations" with the Taliban and ask them to play nicer.
This withdrawal didn't have to go this way. No preparation. No planning. No listening to intelligence sources. Just abruptly leaving, and fucking everyone there in the process -- Afghan and American alike.
"BBBBBUT TRUMP SAID WE'D BE OUT MAY 1 GUYZ, BLAME HIM"
I watched the video. Mr Austin does not inspire confidence in me. I do think you're being very partisan in the views you've continually expressed since your only public comments on the subject have been critical of the current president and Mr Obama. You seem to be seeing a national embarrassment and what should be some moments of true reflection as an entire country from the eyes of a Republican. Wouldn't you really like to know why President Trump was negotiating with the Taliban and not the Afghan govt? Also, try to cheer up a little. We should be trying to stay positive for the people there and rooting them on instead of attacking only the democratic presidents. There are a lot of well armed American badasses there. Let's try and keep the faith. Its not quite yet the time for doom an gloom. Maybe they'll get out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
Druff making only partisan comments? I had to laugh. Druff has never voiced any objection over the years to the Iraq/Afghanistan misadventures. He’s been faultlessly servile to the cause after defending Bush Cheney and the WMD narrative.Quote:
Originally Posted by country978I watched the video. Mr Austin does not inspire confidence in me. I do think you're being very partisan in the views you've continually expressed since your only public comments on the subject have been critical of the current president and Mr Obama. You seem to be seeing a national embarrassment and what should be some moments of true reflection as an entire country from the eyes of a Republican. Wouldn't you really like to know why President Trump was negotiating with the Taliban and not the Afghan govt? Also, try to cheer up a little. We should be trying to stay positive for the people there and rooting them on instead of attacking only the democratic presidents. There are a lot of well armed American badasses there. Let's try and keep the faith. Its not quite yet the time for doom an gloom. Maybe they'll get out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
Afghanistan is just a hammer to hit the Libs with as far as he’s concerned.
I’m more Realpolitik. More adult and fun too
Quote:
Originally Posted by country978They'll get out because they're the marines. I believe they have to fight to get out but they'll get out. Me trying to be optimistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanlmar
The. U.S.N. will make sure every Marine is evacuated.....word.
I would love to "come out" as a republican one day but the people they put up there to vote for have left a lot to be desired. The last 2 R presidents were draft dodgers and scoundrels. One of them is a war criminal. I don't know why or how anyone can defend their actions while pointing fingers at others but I do respect Druff and his reasonableness in all other ways. Which is why its so peculiar to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by SanlmarDruff making only partisan comments? I had to laugh. Druff has never voiced any objection over the years to the Iraq/Afghanistan misadventures over the years. He’s been faultlessly servile to the cause after defending Bush Cheney and the WMD narrative.Quote:
Originally Posted by country978
Afghanistan is just a hammer to hit the Libs with as far as he’s concerned.
thats the fucking spirit!!Quote:
Originally Posted by shoeshine boxQuote:
Originally Posted by country978
The. U.S.N. will make sure every Marine is evacuated.....word.
He is a conservative in the dystopia that is liberal Los Angeles CA. He suffers from a seige mentality. He cannot and will not back down or go off script else he fears they will swallow him whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by country978I would love to "come out" as a republican one day but the people they put up there to vote for have left a lot to be desired. The last 2 R presidents were draft dodgers and scoundrels. One of them is a war criminal. I don't know why or how anyone can defend their actions while pointing fingers at others but I do respect Druff and his reasonableness in all other ways. Which is why its so peculiar to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanlmar
He does not enjoy the luxury of considering both sides of the ledger as you and I do.
re ISIS attack today:Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
“They achieve several things: they hit legitimate targets (from their perspective), they send a signal of still being a force to be reckoned with and they challenge the #Taliban’s state project by highlighting that the group can’t secure #Kabul".
honestly absolutely textbook ISIS. you gotta wonder how long the taliban is going to be able to hold off what im sure will be aggressive attempts to poach loyalists.
a horrific day today for our country. this can be about politics when we're out of there but blaming any president or person seems to be losing sight of what is really important right now. I'm so sorry this happened
Great, then I will refrain from blaming Trump.Quote:
Originally Posted by country978
I’m guessing Fox News is already blaming Biden.
do people not understand that weve been getting our dicks shot off in afghanistan for several thousand todays in a row?
i have one fucking question right now; did biden not receive proper counseling and if not, why not.
if he just decided to yolo this shit and never bothered to get proper threat assessments, hes senile and needs to be removed.
but if he _got_ threat assessments that were bullshit partisan hackery or otherwise tainted, i want to know whose responsible for that exactly if not him.
Isis-K is Isis on Ketamine.
We live in an age of specialization. I’ve often wondered given how piss poor our intelligence has been lately, if it’s simply a byproduct of that. Like you have all these experts in whatever niche. Some Cyber. Some people are language specialists. Security experts. Infrastructure experts.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
You see the postings and they’re looking for experts in this niche, with these language skills, and this degree, and 3 years of experience in this exact aspect of a conflict.
Makes you wonder if we lack or there is always a pissing match between someone who kind of has a grasp of it all.
Like some war hero, academy grad big picture thinker could have a grasp on the subject in a macro sense back when intelligence was humans and spies and such.
Now you need tech experts on cyber warfare. You need social media experts on terrorism recruiting. You need experts on actual tactics used in the real world. You need anthropologists and experts who understand the culture.
But you might lack the right people who have some overview of how it all works together. It’s so hard to be an expert in all those varying disciplines. And even if you happened to be, are the loudest voices in the room the heads of all these niches and you’re just a jack of all trades intelligence guy. That we lack people who can explain if you pull this piece out of the jenga it all comes down and be able to explain why it all comes down.
Like you see all these people who nailed how the Afghan army would fall apart. Or this aspect. Or that aspect. And you’re left wondering how the fuck did someone screw this up so bad, and you start wondering about concepts like paralysis by analysis, or just too many chefs and idiocy by committee. Like do we lack people who can bring all these niches under an umbrella and make a common sense recommendation to the president or leaders at this point. Someone who everyone respects. And instead they get 50 different reports in conflict from all these different heads of this niche specialty or that niche specialty. And they aren’t qualified to assess the accuracy of any of them being almost all old now.
When things go terribly wrong in big spawning companies or agencies like the gov’t with resources, there tends to be a serious flaw in things had become too segmented and there wasn’t a singular vision to the point you forget what the original purpose of shit was. You ended up with too much mgmt and heads all talking and it just sprawls and no one really understands what the other department are doing and how they’re important.
The irony of Kamala Harris flying to Viet Nam at this very moment to curry (lol) favor sails over everyone’s head.
Of course, the “Havana syndrome” (another fun topic) delayed the flight just long enough for the Vietnamese to call in the Chinese diplomats and their relationship got tight and Kamala pretty much got humiliated.
i literally know people personally who are like 'ive been sending reports upstream for ages on afghanistan exit scenarios' and a lot of their plans included everything we've seen play out and much, much worse. so its not a talent vacuum. i think the real issue is partisan bullshit corrupting the process for analysis and dispersal of data. its not like they are briefing potus and being ignored, its that there are 3 sets of eyes between them and potus and at least 2 of them dont want to rock the boat because they all saw what happened to brian murphy, alex vindman, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by BCRWe live in an age of specialization. I’ve often wondered given how piss poor our intelligence has been lately, if it’s simply a byproduct of that. Like you have all these experts in whatever niche. Some Cyber. Some people are language specialists. Security experts. Infrastructure experts.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
You see the postings and they’re looking for experts in this niche, with these language skills, and this degree, and 3 years of experience in this exact aspect of a conflict.
Makes you wonder if we lack or there is always a pissing match between someone who kind of has a grasp of it all.
Like some war hero, academy grad big picture thinker could have a grasp on the subject in a macro sense back when intelligence was humans and spies and such.
Now you need tech experts on cyber warfare. You need social media experts on terrorism recruiting. You need experts on actual tactics used in the real world. You need anthropologists and experts who understand the culture.
But you might lack the right people who have some overview of how it all works together. It’s so hard to be an expert in all those varying disciplines. And even if you happened to be, are the loudest voices in the room the heads of all these niches and you’re just a jack of all trades intelligence guy. That we lack people who can explain if you pull this piece out of the jenga it all comes down and be able to explain why it all comes down.
Like you see all these people who nailed how the Afghan army would fall apart. Or this aspect. Or that aspect. And you’re left wondering how the fuck did someone screw this up so bad, and you start wondering about concepts like paralysis by analysis, or just too many chefs and idiocy by committee. Like do we lack people who can bring all these niches under an umbrella and make a common sense recommendation to the president or leaders at this point. Someone who everyone respects. And instead they get 50 different reports in conflict from all these different heads of this niche specialty or that niche specialty. And they aren’t qualified to assess the accuracy of any of them being almost all old now.
When things go terribly wrong in big spawning companies or agencies like the gov’t with resources, there tends to be a serious flaw in things had become too segmented and there wasn’t a singular vision to the point you forget what the original purpose of shit was. You ended up with too much mgmt and heads all talking and it just sprawls and no one really understands what the other department are doing and how they’re important.
Yeah, for as much information that is out there, you also have the ability to bring it all together.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatinei literally know people personally who are like 'ive been sending reports upstream for ages on afghanistan exit scenarios' and a lot of their plans included everything we've seen play out and much, much worse. so its not a talent vacuum. i think the real issue is partisan bullshit corrupting the process for analysis and dispersal of data. its not like they are briefing potus and being ignored, its that there are 3 sets of eyes between them and potus and at least 2 of them dont want to rock the boat because they all saw what happened to brian murphy, alex vindman, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by BCR
It seems impossible we don’t have brilliant people who could spell out if you do w, then x,y, and z will happen.
Guys on TV long retired can. So then is it simply every leader is on some kickback from some aspect of the military industrial complex and answers to politicians who certainly are, so they just ignore them and do as ordered?
I’m sitting here wondering why when we had 2500 troops there, we have tens of thousands of Americans, forget the other 100k people who are allies you need to get out. Wtf were all these Americans still there for other than to line the pockets of corporate interests?
When we talked of pulling out, I never doubted it would be chaotic for those who had been our allies. But that we still had this many peripheral American people there for clearly financial reasons is staggering even for a cynic like myself. I keep hearing about them and thinking, who are they? Oil execs, private contractors, arms dealers? You never see it explained, or at least I haven’t, what the deal is and who the Americans there are.
Folks there is no other way to look at this except that Biden really “screwed the pooch” on this one. Total failure.
About 5k US citizens have been evacuated and 1500ish is left. Few of them might be related to mining. Mostly just embassy folks and really random assortment of people. Volunteers, mildly retarded school trip etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by BCRYeah, for as much information that is out there, you also have the ability to bring it all together.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
It seems impossible we don’t have brilliant people who could spell out if you do w, then x,y, and z will happen.
Guys on TV long retired can. So then is it simply every leader is on some kickback from some aspect of the military industrial complex and answers to politicians who certainly are, so they just ignore them and do as ordered?
I’m sitting here wondering why when we had 2500 troops there, we have tens of thousands of Americans, forget the other 100k people who are allies you need to get out. Wtf were all these Americans still there for other than to line the pockets of corporate interests?
When we talked of pulling out, I never doubted it would be chaotic for those who had been our allies. But that we still had this many peripheral American people there for clearly financial reasons is staggering even for a cynic like myself. I keep hearing about them and thinking, who are they? Oil execs, private contractors, arms dealers? You never see it explained, or at least I haven’t, what the deal is and who the Americans there are.
The other 90k people that you've evacuated are foreign nationals and afghans that worked for Nato.
With security contractors there are different "rules". Some are considered as responsibility of the company that hired them.
We had some issue with our embassy guards being left out of evacuation lists. It took a day to have most of them added. Meaning full asylum. They were basically subcontractors subcontractors.
Country978 said it was above politics. I guess not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerveza Fria
Thanks Trump.
And my guess is that the most positive expectation for this whole operation was managed decline.
Currently your most reliable ally in Afghanistan is Taliban. They have decent control of their fighters that came from the good caves. They now have something lose. CIA and China have been talking with relevant parties.
The iffy part is that Haqqani network controls the airport security. No idea if something has been promised to them. But since you handed them the list of all Afghani collaborators and most of them are still alive, i'd lean towards some concessions.
Anyways, does someone still think it would have been a good idea to wait a few more months?