Confederate Flag controversy

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Originally Posted by 4Dragons

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Originally Posted by tony bagadonuts

Maybe Tom clarifies or amends this statement later in the thread. Regardless, the problem with his analysis is that it is incorrect. Slavery was absolutely THE reason the civil war occurred. Not emancipation certainly (a by-product of the war and the Union victory) but to keep slavery legal and therefore, in the minds of southerners, protect the southern slave-dependent economy.

Slavery dominated the national debate basically from the Louisiana Purchase forward until Lincoln's election in 1860. Lincoln was elected on Nov 6th and South Carolina voted to secede on Dec 20th, and it wasn't because they didn't want "the man" in their business. It was because the wrongfully believed Lincoln was an abolitionist who would destroy the south's way of life.

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My family fought under Sherman to keep the Union whole, not for human rights issues. I'm glad it all worked out because the argument had existed since the days of the Revolution and was a sticking point of the southern States to agree to the rebellion in the first place. Just to be clear, I don't see any reason for that flag to fly anywhere but in a museum.

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You actually helped my point "fought to keep the union whole, not for human rights issues", I suppose we can agree to disagree but my point was the civil war was not just about slavery yet it was used as a "fuse". Not every southern home had a slave and not every unionist fought to free slaves.

The funny thing is the north had no issue with slavery under British rule until the revolution and after that their industry suffered and they had no use. Think about this a moment, if the revolution did not impact the norths economy they would have kept slaves because they needed them.

Would a civil war still have happened? I believe so because the under lying issue was "the man", slavery was a sticking point and easiest to exploit.

End of day obviously slavery was a horrid abuse and glad it ended.

As far as the flag goes, personally it makes no difference to me since I have to history with it but it says something about our world and the USA.

Be careful what flag you fly because if popular media suddenly tells us all it's bad and moves government to remove it and outlaw it, what's next?

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Originally Posted by Tom

Be careful what flag you fly because if popular media suddenly tells us all it's bad and moves government to remove it and outlaw it, what's next?

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The entire thing has been about A STATE flying the confederate flag. Not you, not me, not any private entity, but THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA. Tell me who's trying to outlaw it anywhere for any private entity?

And popular media shouldn't be the one who tells you its bad, it should be common sense, common decency to fellow citizens, and a general sense of what's right for a government agent to display and what clearly isn't. Unfortunately, a ton of selfish, short-sighted, and racist people lack a lot of these qualities, so they must be shamed into doing what's right instead of digging in their heels and making arguments about why the flag doesn't mean what people think it means, etc.

TBH, I've always found it weird that the flag of the losing side in the civil war was allowed unmodified on any public buildings to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Crowe Diddly

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Originally Posted by Tom

Be careful what flag you fly because if popular media suddenly tells us all it's bad and moves government to remove it and outlaw it, what's next?

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The entire thing has been about A STATE flying the confederate flag. Not you, not me, not any private entity, but THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA. Tell me who's trying to outlaw it anywhere?

And popular media shouldn't be the one who tells you its bad, it should be common sense, common decency to fellow citizens, and a general sense of what's right for a government agent to display and what clearly isn't. Unfortunately, a ton of selfish, short-sighted, and racist people lack a lot of these qualities, so they must be shamed into doing what's right instead of digging in their heels and making arguments about why the flag doesn't mean what people think it means, etc.

TBH, I've always found it weird that the flag of the losing side in the civil war was allowed unmodified on any public buildings to begin with.

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Not entirely true I watched the news last night and several business have stopped carrying it, UNLV? Needss to rename again their mascot maybe and in another country their business for the flag dried up over the week.

Popular media dictates thoughts, decisions and reaches well beyond the Carolinas with this one.

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Originally Posted by Tom

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Originally Posted by Crowe Diddly

The entire thing has been about A STATE flying the confederate flag. Not you, not me, not any private entity, but THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA. Tell me who's trying to outlaw it anywhere?

And popular media shouldn't be the one who tells you its bad, it should be common sense, common decency to fellow citizens, and a general sense of what's right for a government agent to display and what clearly isn't. Unfortunately, a ton of selfish, short-sighted, and racist people lack a lot of these qualities, so they must be shamed into doing what's right instead of digging in their heels and making arguments about why the flag doesn't mean what people think it means, etc.

TBH, I've always found it weird that the flag of the losing side in the civil war was allowed unmodified on any public buildings to begin with.

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Not entirely true I watched the news last night and several business have stopped carrying it, UNLV? Needss to rename again their mascot maybe and in another country their business for the flag dried up over the week.

Popular media dictates thoughts, decisions and reaches well beyond the Carolinas with this one.

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Tell me again who's trying to outlaw it anywhere? Yeah, people sick of that fucking horse-shit flag are pressuring those with their heads still in the sand to take it down. That's good, I think.

I don't see anything being outlawed, tho. When I say outlawed, I mean for private citizens and businesses, not public buildings, because we have shit tons of laws already about what can and cannot be on those. I'm talking private entities.

Has everyone in this thread read the Cornerstone Speech yet? I highly recommend it. Hell, just the first few paragraphs will do. It pretty clearly lays out, by Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens, a few weeks before the war, just what he thinks this whole thing is about. You only need read a paragraph or two, but the entire thing is worthwhile.

http://civilwarcauses.org/stephans.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

Can you guess what he thinks the cornerstone of the new nation is?

 

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth..."

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Originally Posted by Crowe Diddly

Has everyone in this thread read the Cornerstone Speech yet? I highly recommend it. Hell, just the first few paragraphs will do. It pretty clearly lays out, by Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens, a few weeks before the war, just what he thinks this whole thing is about. You only need read a paragraph or two, but the entire thing is worthwhile.

http://civilwarcauses.org/stephans.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

Can you guess what he thinks the cornerstone of the new nation is?

 

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth..."

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Will we be quoting all the Northern leaders (George Thomas for example) and founding fathers (Washington, Franklin, Jefferson etc) who owned slaves at one point as well? Like I said earlier, when slaves were no longer needed in the North they suddenly had a moral enlightenment, sure.

The South needed them, owning slaves = revenue, money was a huge factor. So while you can say the South (10-25% btw by some estimates) just loved slave owning and fouight for it. What they really fought for was the money, take away my slave and I suffer economically. If their bottom line wasn't hit they would have no use for slaves, just like the North after the revolution!

As far as outlawed, I apologize I mis spoke, you are correct, should have used a different term. Private is ok, for now!

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Originally Posted by Tom

Be careful what flag you fly because if popular media suddenly tells us all it's bad and moves government to remove it and outlaw it, what's next?

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That sure is a weird spin to put on things.

I think the opposite of what you're complaining about is happening. Freedom of expression gives us a marketplace of ideas, and this is just a stock that is tanking. The government did not compel Amazon and Walmart to take these flags off their shelves. The market dictated that.

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Originally Posted by Tom

Will we be quoting all the Northern leaders (George Thomas for example) and founding fathers (Washington, Franklin, Jefferson etc) who owned slaves at one point as well? Like I said earlier, when slaves were no longer needed in the North they suddenly had a moral enlightenment, sure.

The South needed them, owning slaves = revenue, money was a huge factor. So while you can say the South (10-25% btw by some estimates) just loved slave owning and fouight for it. What they really fought for was the money, take away my slave and I suffer economically. If their bottom line wasn't hit they would have no use for slaves, just like the North after the revolution!

As far as outlawed, I apologize I mis spoke, you are correct, should have used a different term. Private is ok, for now!

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So we're in agreement that the issue of slavery was the reason for the secession and, therefore, the war? Sure seems like we agree on almost everything when its clearly spelled out, you just won't allow yourself to say that slavery was the central cause of this whole deal.

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Originally Posted by Crowe Diddly

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Originally Posted by Tom

Will we be quoting all the Northern leaders (George Thomas for example) and founding fathers (Washington, Franklin, Jefferson etc) who owned slaves at one point as well? Like I said earlier, when slaves were no longer needed in the North they suddenly had a moral enlightenment, sure.

The South needed them, owning slaves = revenue, money was a huge factor. So while you can say the South (10-25% btw by some estimates) just loved slave owning and fouight for it. What they really fought for was the money, take away my slave and I suffer economically. If their bottom line wasn't hit they would have no use for slaves, just like the North after the revolution!

As far as outlawed, I apologize I mis spoke, you are correct, should have used a different term. Private is ok, for now!

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So we're in agreement that the issue of slavery was the reason for the secession and, therefore, the war? Sure seems like we agree.

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He will refuse to agree that we all seemingly agree. "It wasn't slavery, it was the man holding us down", you know not letting us have slaves

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Originally Posted by Tom

Private is ok, for now!

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Yes, barring a change to the constitution.

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Originally Posted by Tom

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Originally Posted by 4Dragons

My family fought under Sherman to keep the Union whole, not for human rights issues. I'm glad it all worked out because the argument had existed since the days of the Revolution and was a sticking point of the southern States to agree to the rebellion in the first place. Just to be clear, I don't see any reason for that flag to fly anywhere but in a museum.

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You actually helped my point "fought to keep the union whole, not for human rights issues", I suppose we can agree to disagree but my point was the civil war was not just about slavery yet it was used as a "fuse". Not every southern home had a slave and not every unionist fought to free slaves.

The funny thing is the north had no issue with slavery under British rule until the revolution and after that their industry suffered and they had no use. Think about this a moment, if the revolution did not impact the norths economy they would have kept slaves because they needed them.

Would a civil war still have happened? I believe so because the under lying issue was "the man", slavery was a sticking point and easiest to exploit.

End of day obviously slavery was a horrid abuse and glad it ended.

As far as the flag goes, personally it makes no difference to me since I have to history with it but it says something about our world and the USA.

Be careful what flag you fly because if popular media suddenly tells us all it's bad and moves government to remove it and outlaw it, what's next?

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The way it went down was that the North was sick of being pushed around by the South and their money and them counting slaves as people per capita, therefore getting more representation in the House that they didn't deserve, this is what made the North declare that slaves were Three-Fifths of a Man to take away power from the South and their abusive ways. Slavery wasn't the sticking point, it is what the South used to gain power in Congress that they didn't deserve because slaves can't vote. The South got pissed and said we're keeping our money and cotton and slaves and you get the high hat.

It was about money and power and the use of slaves to offset that balance.

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Originally Posted by Crowe Diddly

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Originally Posted by Tom

Private is ok, for now!

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Yes, barring a change to the constitution.

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A change, you mean like the liberty the Federal Government takes with trying to change them? I will say this I am no supporter of most right wing things at all, guns etc BUT if these slightly nutty people did not fight some fights where would we be?

btw...

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites. What he did believe was that, like all men, blacks had the right to improve their condition in society and to enjoy the fruits of their labor. In this way they were equal to white men, and for this reason slavery was inherently unjust."

You know who that was? Lincoln. So he wanted negros to have the right to get the fruits of their labor and be free but from the other side of his mouth, they are not equal.

And yes I agree and no I do not to why the war started lol We agree on many respects and I think I just look at the angle differently, not as cut and dry.

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Originally Posted by 4Dragons

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Originally Posted by Tom

You actually helped my point "fought to keep the union whole, not for human rights issues", I suppose we can agree to disagree but my point was the civil war was not just about slavery yet it was used as a "fuse". Not every southern home had a slave and not every unionist fought to free slaves.

The funny thing is the north had no issue with slavery under British rule until the revolution and after that their industry suffered and they had no use. Think about this a moment, if the revolution did not impact the norths economy they would have kept slaves because they needed them.

Would a civil war still have happened? I believe so because the under lying issue was "the man", slavery was a sticking point and easiest to exploit.

End of day obviously slavery was a horrid abuse and glad it ended.

As far as the flag goes, personally it makes no difference to me since I have to history with it but it says something about our world and the USA.

Be careful what flag you fly because if popular media suddenly tells us all it's bad and moves government to remove it and outlaw it, what's next?

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The way it went down was that the North was sick of being pushed around by the South and their money and them counting slaves as people per capita, therefore getting more representation in the House that they didn't deserve, this is what made the North declare that slaves were Three-Fifths of a Man to take away power from the South and their abusive ways. Slavery wasn't the sticking point, it is what the South used to gain power in Congress that they didn't deserve because slaves can't vote. The South got pissed and said we're keeping our money and cotton and slaves and you get the high hat.

It was about money and power and the use of slaves to offset that balance.

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I agree, in fact read about 7 posts up, I mention money in just that respect.

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Originally Posted by SrslySirius

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Originally Posted by Tom

Be careful what flag you fly because if popular media suddenly tells us all it's bad and moves government to remove it and outlaw it, what's next?

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That sure is a weird spin to put on things.

I think the opposite of what you're complaining about is happening. Freedom of expression gives us a marketplace of ideas, and this is just a stock that is tanking. The government did not compel Amazon and Walmart to take these flags off their shelves. The market dictated that.

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True, people suddenly had a realization across America and didn't need the media or government news conferences...the word sheeple comes to mind.

Why then were these outlets available to purchase until this week? Do you think they sell at a loss. It was out of fear of backlash, not some moral compass that suddenly pointed north. Should we applaud that?

Sounds like there's a closet racist in this thread and his name is Tom.

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Originally Posted by anonamoose

Sounds like there's a closet racist in this thread and his name is Tom.

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That would be something considering I am black.

It's called a discussion a little devil's advocate and debate.

Just because one is African American does not mean they suddenly play a card and avoid looking at history. I can be glad slavery was abolished and rational as to exactly why and what the factors were. I would have supported Lincoln of course, yes freedom sounds wonderful, thank you but he wouldn't have invited me into a political discussion or allow any position equal to a white man in government because after all I am a negro still. I had the right to be "equal" but with a cap of course.

In fact the only real political discussion he had with a black delegation in Washington one summer was one where he really did not want ideas, his was a possible ship back to Africa is memory serves me right. You know to free them of the stain of slavery, why should we live among them.


Ask an average black person if they like Lincoln, odds are they reply yes of course, some of us choose to see things for what they really were and educate ourselves.
Truth hurts sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Tom

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Originally Posted by anonamoose

Sounds like there's a closet racist in this thread and his name is Tom.

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That would be something considering I am black.

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Originally Posted by Tom

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Originally Posted by anonamoose

Sounds like there's a closet racist in this thread and his name is Tom.

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That would be something considering I am black.

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You should have made your screen name Uncle Tom......

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Originally Posted by Muck Ficon

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Originally Posted by Tom

That would be something considering I am black.

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You should have made your screen name Uncle Tom......

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That has actually been a on going joke most of my life.

Gotta love WI.

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Originally Posted by Tom

Just because one is African American does not mean they suddenly play a card and avoid looking at history. I can be glad slavery was abolished and rational as to exactly why and what the factors were. I would have supported Lincoln of course, yes freedom sounds wonderful, thank you but he wouldn't have invited me into a political discussion or allow any position equal to a white man in government because after all I am a negro still. I had the right to be "equal" but with a cap of course.

In fact the only real political discussion he had with a black delegation in Washington one summer was one where he really did not want ideas, his was a possible ship back to Africa is memory serves me right. You know to free them of the stain of slavery, why should we live among them.

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You're right. Frederick Douglass was obviously a sham.