IS SEALS WITH CLUBS DONKDOWN??? (Update: Micon charged with a felony in Nevada)

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by neorab

http://briggsoft.com/pmfaq.htm#q9

"The server is written in Delphi. The player client is written in HTML5 and Javascript. The version 4 source code is not published. Source code licenses for version 3 (written in Delphi/OpenLaszlo) start at $10,000 USD, depending on the terms."

Kent confirmed that seals had a source code license on his forums once.

edit: which is also why they were still using version 3 instead of version 4 like NoFraud and pokershibes

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Thanks. Great 2nd post.

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I don't really know much about Micon (only met him once during WSOP to demand a hat) but I know quite a bit about the software on seals (Poker Mavens and their desktop client anyway) since I wrote my own client and gave xdev a couple patches for their desktop client. They were definitely working on the actual mavens code, there were things like little protocol changes and the flash client was updated a bunch of times in the last year or so. They had a beta server where pineapple was implemented on top of mavens for awhile but that seemed to stop getting worked on then they got the software from Grid Poker (that's where their new software came from) awhile ago. Not sure if any of my knowledge means anything to this thread, but thought I'd share.

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Originally Posted by 4Dragons

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Originally Posted by NaturalBornHustler

Another thing, when the police break down your door with a search warrant, they don't just "kick your door in and steal all your stuff without charges"..or paperwork. Lots of it. The search warrant alone is a 10 page or more document, and they also leave you paperwork with every single thing they took accounted for and described in writing. Even down to the most random little thing. They hand all said documents to you when they are finished (usually you carry it in between your cuffed hands going into jail".

I will be eager to see if anything like that exists, and if it does why wasn't mr anti government waving it around to show what the corrupt police "stole" from him in the video. They don't just come in and take shit and toll out and say thanks. Not how it works.

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The difference between someone dressed in all black and a hoodie and someone dressed in blue with a badge is all I see, other than a receipt for shit you will never see again.

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Not that this is going to matter here, but you have a right to all of the stuff back if you aren't charged with (or convicted of) a crime.

I have never been on the regulated USA sites but sounds like seals with less limited resources did a much better job at putting out a product then the legalized sites. Should hire hdev to put together site for legalized sites . He did a helluva job.

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Originally Posted by neorab

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Thanks. Great 2nd post.

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I don't really know much about Micon (only met him once during WSOP to demand a hat) but I know quite a bit about the software on seals (Poker Mavens and their desktop client anyway) since I wrote my own client and gave xdev a couple patches for their desktop client. They were definitely working on the actual mavens code, there were things like little protocol changes and the flash client was updated a bunch of times in the last year or so. They had a beta server where pineapple was implemented on top of mavens for awhile but that seemed to stop getting worked on then they got the software from Grid Poker (that's where their new software came from) awhile ago. Not sure if any of my knowledge means anything to this thread, but thought I'd share.

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Very interesting.

What did "hdev" and "xdev" stand for? Obviously we know the "dev" part, but were h and x just a way to tell them apart, or did they have specific roles?

Not asking you to name people here or out them, but just wondering.

In fact, I don't want anyone else involved being named here if they're trying to keep anonymous, as it seems they're trying to do the right thing by paying everyone, and I don't want to contribute to these people being found or prosecuted.

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Originally Posted by FRANKRIZZO

I have never been on the regulated USA sites but sounds like seals with less limited resources did a much better job at putting out a product then the legalized sites. Should hire hdev to put together site for legalized sites . He did a helluva job.

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The regulated US sites are doing all kinds of things wrong.

Some of it is simply because they are under the heavy hand of poorly written regulations, and are required to get regulatory approval with every small bug fix or tweak.

Some of it is because they are poorly managing everything.

Some of it is because they are partnering with shady operators like 888 with crap software. Ultimate Poker developed their own proprietary software, but they did a terrible job with it, and then prioritized all the wrong things, essentially ignoring valuable player input.

fwiw, hdev is a commonly referenced variable in linux kernel code.

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Originally Posted by 4Dragons

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Originally Posted by GrenadaRoger

I think need to explain myself better for you benefit...the opportunity created was for a lazy, undisciplined operator to succeed...could SWC have succeeded if PokerStars was allowed to compete? no... and wouldn't the American tobacco companies dominate marijuana production and distribution if they were allowed to compete...yes

and re: your freedom from laws comment--read Druffs post, which says regulation is desired by society (hence laws)--it is a choice that has been made for reasons he gave: I believe you advocate civil disobedience against a law you don't agree with, well that is your choice and go ahead...I wouldn't want you stopped at that until you become a danger to others

I believe I am clear enough on your thinking, thank you, I hope you better understand my point

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Nobody said anything about civil disobedience or me going along with what Micon was doing. I fall into the category of being able to have put up a bitcoin poker site, but the risk was just insane... in this police state. That is controlled by politicians that only care about themselves. That protect the people that feed them graft and jail or shoot everyone else.

You see the comment has nothing to do with poker or bitcoin or Micon. It's the statement that somehow law and regulation = opportunity. That's fucked up and seriously backwards. Dare I say.. un-American.

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There was recently a proposal in Washington state to legalize (even playing online is a felony in WA right now) and regulate like other states had. If that had managed to come to fruition, I would have seriously considered moving there and starting a small poker site. I think there is plenty of room for small operations to join up with established cardrooms to build an online presence to go with their B&M. The old style huge site that needs traffic from everywhere to cover their costs isn't going to work long term but a low overhead, low traffic, community based site could be profitable and personally rewarding.

The legal framework to be allowed to do it would have opened that opportunity for me. I don't feel like there is opportunity to run a site without it, not just because of the legal ramifications, but because the old model of pokersites (that seals was trying to emulate) don't make sense financially or logistically anymore. Just my opinion, I really would have liked to see Washington do that because I think the community style site would be better for poker players than the monolith that you see with NJ, Nevada and Delaware sites. That said, the current legal framework also takes away the opportunity to do it too, it's all in the details and the actual opportunity.

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Originally Posted by neorab

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Thanks. Great 2nd post.

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I don't really know much about Micon (only met him once during WSOP to demand a hat) but I know quite a bit about the software on seals (Poker Mavens and their desktop client anyway) since I wrote my own client and gave xdev a couple patches for their desktop client. They were definitely working on the actual mavens code, there were things like little protocol changes and the flash client was updated a bunch of times in the last year or so. They had a beta server where pineapple was implemented on top of mavens for awhile but that seemed to stop getting worked on then they got the software from Grid Poker (that's where their new software came from) awhile ago. Not sure if any of my knowledge means anything to this thread, but thought I'd share.

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Looks nice.
http://youtu.be/aW3GfUDG978

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by neorab

I don't really know much about Micon (only met him once during WSOP to demand a hat) but I know quite a bit about the software on seals (Poker Mavens and their desktop client anyway) since I wrote my own client and gave xdev a couple patches for their desktop client. They were definitely working on the actual mavens code, there were things like little protocol changes and the flash client was updated a bunch of times in the last year or so. They had a beta server where pineapple was implemented on top of mavens for awhile but that seemed to stop getting worked on then they got the software from Grid Poker (that's where their new software came from) awhile ago. Not sure if any of my knowledge means anything to this thread, but thought I'd share.

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Very interesting.

What did "hdev" and "xdev" stand for? Obviously we know the "dev" part, but were h and x just a way to tell them apart, or did they have specific roles?

Not asking you to name people here or out them, but just wondering.

In fact, I don't want anyone else involved being named here if they're trying to keep anonymous, as it seems they're trying to do the right thing by paying everyone, and I don't want to contribute to these people being found or prosecuted.

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hdev would routinely say in lobby chat that the 'h' was just picked as a random letter for his official seals name. Both he and xdev had one letter email addresses, h@sealswithclubs.eu and x@sealswithclubs.eu. All I really know about what they did was that xdev built the desktop client and hdev was working on the mavens source. He was always the contact person for the beta server at any rate. Some people at seals would suggest emailing them if support wasn't helpful, so I don't think either of them had much of a hand in dealing with player support.

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Originally Posted by Reno

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Originally Posted by neorab

I don't really know much about Micon (only met him once during WSOP to demand a hat) but I know quite a bit about the software on seals (Poker Mavens and their desktop client anyway) since I wrote my own client and gave xdev a couple patches for their desktop client. They were definitely working on the actual mavens code, there were things like little protocol changes and the flash client was updated a bunch of times in the last year or so. They had a beta server where pineapple was implemented on top of mavens for awhile but that seemed to stop getting worked on then they got the software from Grid Poker (that's where their new software came from) awhile ago. Not sure if any of my knowledge means anything to this thread, but thought I'd share.

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Looks nice.
http://youtu.be/aW3GfUDG978

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I was one of the players that got to play on the new software for the couple of weeks it was up before seals closed. I was streaming on twitch.tv/nullclick a few times, think I saved a couple session videos. I played on grid for awhile too and it really felt like they had put in a lot of work into it, was working better than I remember grid working. I'm sad to see them go. I never got the impression Micon was in charge of much (not that it would have meant much to me, not knowing him and his history as some people here seem to) and the vibe I got from xdev and hdev was that they cared about making it work and with the dealer's choice that was on the new software I was almost having fun playing poker again.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by neorab

I don't really know much about Micon (only met him once during WSOP to demand a hat) but I know quite a bit about the software on seals (Poker Mavens and their desktop client anyway) since I wrote my own client and gave xdev a couple patches for their desktop client. They were definitely working on the actual mavens code, there were things like little protocol changes and the flash client was updated a bunch of times in the last year or so. They had a beta server where pineapple was implemented on top of mavens for awhile but that seemed to stop getting worked on then they got the software from Grid Poker (that's where their new software came from) awhile ago. Not sure if any of my knowledge means anything to this thread, but thought I'd share.

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Very interesting.

What did "hdev" and "xdev" stand for? Obviously we know the "dev" part, but were h and x just a way to tell them apart, or did they have specific roles?

Not asking you to name people here or out them, but just wondering.

In fact, I don't want anyone else involved being named here if they're trying to keep anonymous, as it seems they're trying to do the right thing by paying everyone, and I don't want to contribute to these people being found or prosecuted.

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That is why it is such a shame seals was shut down. Ownership actually implemented player suggestions and always looked to streamline the site whenever possible never being satisfied or complacent. Understandable why had such a die hard following.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by NorCal Sports

Even if we take the high-end of the SwC traffic/revenue estimates, I guess I'm wondering why Nevada Gaming gave a shit? Sure, SwC was likely generating some net income, by all accounts Micon didn't have a moving sidewalk at his house or anything like that.

Maybe this is like invading a 'home game' or nipping this in the bud so other sites don't proliferate as well. Personally I believe there's more to this story than some degens running a fledgling bitcoin poker site.

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Nevada gaming always gives a shit.

They have always taken unlicensed gambling in the state very seriously.

Truthfully Seals had approximately the same traffic as WSOP Nevada (maybe slightly less, but close), and while much of that traffic wasn't from the state of Nevada, they definitely couldn't dismiss Seals as a small fish that was dwarfed by the legal sites.

It is possible that Gaming would have had less of an interest if there wasn't regulated online poker in Nevada. I wouldn't even be surprised if Caesars was the one reporting them to Gaming.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Also keep in mind that all of the legalized online poker operators (in all 3 states) are pissed off and frustrated that they are only doing a fraction of the business they expected.

And right or wrong, they are resting a lot of that blame on the existing illegal online poker sites, claiming that they are sucking away potential business.

I don't know how valid that complaint is anymore, given that the bigger US-facing networks are no longer serving customers from those states, but they've been long concerned about unlicensed competition, and honestly I don't blame them.

I can't imagine Caesars was too happy about seeing an unlicensed online poker site (even if for bitcoin) being heavily promoted by someone right there in Las Vegas.

This, of course, is all of a guess. Perhaps Caesars had nothing to do with this bust, but for sure they were aware of Seals' existence.

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Fair enough. I guess I just see it differently as the revenue/loses CZR, BYD ... ect are realizing from online gaming are a micro-fraction of the company.

Analysts - who are usually trying to pump/dump stock for the firms benefit - were the one's making estimates, and I don't know many intelligent investors that listen to these guys. The poker community ran with the numbers, but anyone in the investment community blows over what these guys claim almost 100% of the time.

If I'm wrong and CZR's and others are bent out of shape over the competition - why is Bodog been untouchable for so long? Sure he has his ass covered better than the next guy, but he's not God. Why only pick on the little guy? Doesn't make much sense.

Neither does a "millionaire" booking out of the country permanently because he wants to run a bitcoin poker site, that by on the top-end estimates doesn't net life changing money (like Bodog probably is).

The story isn't adding up - and we've only got 1 side of the argument. My money's on there's more to this story than some kids playing poker for bitcoins.

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Originally Posted by 4Dragons

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Originally Posted by GrenadaRoger

I think need to explain myself better for you benefit...the opportunity created was for a lazy, undisciplined operator to succeed...could SWC have succeeded if PokerStars was allowed to compete? no... and wouldn't the American tobacco companies dominate marijuana production and distribution if they were allowed to compete...yes

and re: your freedom from laws comment--read Druffs post, which says regulation is desired by society (hence laws)--it is a choice that has been made for reasons he gave: I believe you advocate civil disobedience against a law you don't agree with, well that is your choice and go ahead...I wouldn't want you stopped at that until you become a danger to others

I believe I am clear enough on your thinking, thank you, I hope you better understand my point

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Nobody said anything about civil disobedience or me going along with what Micon was doing. I fall into the category of being able to have put up a bitcoin poker site, but the risk was just insane... in this police state. That is controlled by politicians that only care about themselves. That protect the people that feed them graft and jail or shoot everyone else.

You see the comment has nothing to do with poker or bitcoin or Micon. It's the statement that somehow law and regulation = opportunity. That's fucked up and seriously backwards. Dare I say.. un-American.

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I agree, it's usually un American to break the law....but wouldn't you agree there is economic reward for the risk associated with law breaking?


what I found hypocritical about Micon is him saying: PoliceState, excessive force, my daughter

PoliceState....or laws passed by elected representatives, laws that were on the books beforehand (no ex post facto) that Micon was aware of and chose to test?

excessive force...or safe intervention with force adequate to ensure no attempt to fight off the intervention, the result was no one hurt physically...only Micon's ego damaged for being handcuffed

my daughter...implying his actions in running SWC was for his daughter's benefit---he could have gotten a job like the rest of us but he chose another way, so really whose benefit? Micon's laziness benefit


I wish Micon had just sacked up and said, I did not agree with the law, I am providing something people want, and I am willing to fight for it...that is what an American Hero would have done imho

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Originally Posted by NorCal Sports

Fair enough. I guess I just see it differently as the revenue/loses CZR, BYD ... ect are realizing from online gaming are a micro-fraction of the company.

Analysts - who are usually trying to pump/dump stock for the firms benefit - were the one's making estimates, and I don't know many intelligent investors that listen to these guys. The poker community ran with the numbers, but anyone in the investment community blows over what these guys claim almost 100% of the time.

If I'm wrong and CZR's and others are bent out of shape over the competition - why is Bodog been untouchable for so long? Sure he has his ass covered better than the next guy, but he's not God. Why only pick on the little guy? Doesn't make much sense.

Neither does a "millionaire" booking out of the country permanently because he wants to run a bitcoin poker site, that by on the top-end estimates doesn't net life changing money (like Bodog probably is).

The story isn't adding up - and we've only got 1 side of the argument. My money's on there's more to this story than some kids playing poker for bitcoins.

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Bodog isn't allowing Nevada residents to play. (They ARE allowing visitors to Nevada to play, though!)

They're also a lot harder to touch. They are experts at slipping through the fingers of US law enforcement. There might finally be a DOJ-related crackdown on them, but I think they're beyond the scope of Nevada Gaming's power.

Seals was a low-hanging fruit. It was competing with the Nevada sites, and the face/chairman of the site lived right there in Vegas. Nabbing Micon was several orders of magnitude easier for them than nailing Bodog.

Similarly, if I was running an underground poker game in Vegas and being public about it, it's also likely Gaming would show up at my door, even if I wasn't meaning much to the bottom line of Nevada casinos.

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Originally Posted by sonatine

I think the most likely resolution here is that Micon will try to fight the charges from Antigua. And either he will go totally 100% flat broke in the process and fail, or he will go totally 100% flat broke in the process and at least be able to step foot in the US again legally. Every other conceivable permutation of his future involves the type of trouble none of us would laugh about.

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Along these lines I had a family member who fought the IRS over a bunch of years and was one of the very, very few people who won. And by won, I mean he ended up divorced with his business and personal finances in shambles. He beat? the government but they still helped turn his life to shit. Trying to settle and pay over a number of years is the better move.

> 10 tags for this thread - really guys???

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Originally Posted by GrenadaRoger

I wish Micon had just sacked up and said, I did not agree with the law, I am providing something people want, and I am willing to fight for it...that is what an American Hero would have done imho

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they got the wrong types of bars in jail, but yeah it would have been hilarious.

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Originally Posted by bukowski72

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Originally Posted by sonatine

I think the most likely resolution here is that Micon will try to fight the charges from Antigua. And either he will go totally 100% flat broke in the process and fail, or he will go totally 100% flat broke in the process and at least be able to step foot in the US again legally. Every other conceivable permutation of his future involves the type of trouble none of us would laugh about.

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Along these lines I had a family member who fought the IRS over a bunch of years and was one of the very, very few people who won. And by won, I mean he ended up divorced with his business and personal finances in shambles. He beat? the government but they still helped turn his life to shit. Trying to settle and pay over a number of years is the better move.

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honestly, if the IRS tells me i owe them something, i just pay it. and thank them for the opportunity to do so.

but if micon hasnt been keeping up with payments on what sounds a lot like 400k - 700k in seals income over the last 3 years... not even getting into the cap gains angle from buying btc at $5 a pop ... i mean, how do you even pay the interest on that judgement when youre unemployable and live in Antigua to boot?

also druff i was thinking about what youre saying about how agencies rarely share info with each other so the irs might not get involved.

here is the thing; if they are going after seals, they are going to bring in the financial forensic team from the irs, pretty sure thats a lock. there is no one on earth with more experience or more resources for chasing the money. thats why all the drug cases have irs tie-ins that come in to assess asset confiscation scope in return for pursuing their own evasion charges.

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Originally Posted by NorCal Sports

If I'm wrong and CZR's and others are bent out of shape over the competition - why is Bodog been untouchable for so long? Sure he has his ass covered better than the next guy, but he's not God. Why only pick on the little guy? Doesn't make much sense.

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Micon was the public head of an obviously illegal poker room offering a raked game to US customers in Nevada. This is the lowest of low hanging fruit. Why pick on the little guy? Because the little guy set up shop on the front door of the police station.

Why only pick on the little guy? Who says they are ONLY picking on micon? Because it takes 20 minutes to make a case against micon and serve the warrants. Takes years and years to make a case against bovada, and there's no guarantee you won't end up spending millions to come up empty at the end of the day.

edit: druff pretty much made my points.

It's not as if the DOJ has been ignoring Ayre and Bodog.

He's been indicted, they just haven't caught him yet.