Contract Breakin' II: Electric Boogaloo (a PokerFraudAlert prequel!)

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Fluffer, many of your ideas as to what to do with myself within the poker community are good, and I have considered a lot of those things already.

I will definitely be trying to get a management position within one of the legalized US poker sites when they eventually come to pass. I agree that distancing myself from DD as much as possible would be helpful toward that goal, as that site has probably hurt my ability to be taken seriously to some degree.

However, filing a lawsuit to protect a contract that has been breached will not jeopardize any of that. It's not like Micon is some major respected player in the industry, and I'll be blackballed for engaging in a dispute with him. The truth is simply that nobody outside of these 2 forums is really going to give a shit about it.

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magnanimous
adjective
1.
generous in forgiving an insult or injury; free from petty resentfulness or vindictiveness: to be magnanimous toward one's enemies.
2.
high-minded; noble: a just and magnanimous ruler.
3.
proceeding from or revealing generosity or nobility of mind, character, etc.: a magnanimous gesture of forgiveness.



sometimes you have to learn to let things go, otherwise i can literally picture you becoming certifiable

i imagine you spending literally 24 hours obsessing over this, ffs, you have a family, direct your energy towards your son

Oh man, where do I start....

Razor, +1 for the use of pedantic on an internet forum. Although I was familiar with the gist of the meaning, I actually had to look it up which to me is great. Razor gets the word of the day prize.


Steve-O, great, thought-provoking post with sound logic and reasoning. I am curious as two a couple of your comments:

1 - Regarding the value of the forum, unless you have seen the contract, which as far as I know nobody really has, how can you say that both parties agreed in writing that the value of the forum was greater than was was agreed upon? Do you think the site was worth more than 5k at the time the agreement was written? I don't know the financials but I would be shocked if it was more than that.

2 - I don't think the Lamborghini analogy is correct. It's one thing to sell a tangible asset with a book value for a fraction of its worth, it's entirely another to try to value a 3rd-tier poker forum with a very small user base.

Part of the problem is that we all have to speculate as to the actual verbiage of the contract. Without seeing it, we are all spitballing to some extent.


Druff - There is no doubt that you could spend Micon into the ground, make his life very miserable for a while and probably end up getting him to sell you the site and end up with DD if that is your end game. You are well within your rights to pursue legal action as you choose, but that doesn't mean you should. At any time Micon could restore your access to the previous level and would no longer be in violation of the contract (as I understand it).

If you could somehow prove intent, that Micon defrauded you, then you might have a case for actual damages and could rightfully label him as a scammer. This would be very tough to prove and in reality probably isn't true as it's likely that Micon didn't even give it that much thought.

Fluffer - I pretty much agree with everything you stated.


Neveragain - Disagree bro. I'm all for drama and lulz, but I couldn't in good conscience endorse actually moving forward with a lawsuit.

Isn't this exactly the type of thing small claims courts are made for? Saves you money on a lawyer, it forces mediation before trial, and can award up to $7500, I believe. Would that not be enough?

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Originally Posted by tony bagadonuts

http://www.freewebs.com/matthewrobbi...f%20Reason.JPG

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While I always value you being the voice of reason, I disagree with some of what you are saying.

Cmon Druff, are you really thinking about suing a guy who wears a dirty trucker hat, Hoosiers Rock t-shirt, and these shoes is +EV in the game of life?

http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/...opolyshoes.jpg

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Originally Posted by fluffer

DD IS JUST A FUCKIN LAME FORUM, OK

for such a supposedly intelligent guy you sure do some idiotic things

maybe you are taking an usual line on this matter, and like scotty, using this embarrassing drama to create more traffic/publicity

imo you lack perspective on this matter....you are not looking at the bigger picture

you have a chance to parlay you crusader persona, especially when online poker is legalized, and blow up huge. Instead you your credibility is diminishing at a rapid rate

i honestly think you need to distant yourself from anything to do with donkdown, and concentrate on what your strengths are, and that is to look out for the little guy and call out the cheats

this is what i would do

cut off all ties with dd, as it just tarnishes your reputation, and sort of delegitimizes you

start networking, especially with magazines, radio shows, tv/cable, and be the go to guy who can cut
through all the crap and explain the issues in layman terms...thats your strength

head a consumer watchdog group if that is route you want to go

i can even envisage you as being the face of an online poker site...druff=no scamming, i would definitely
play

i can see many opportunities, but you really need to pull your fuckin head in, as you are imploding in front of all ''34'' members

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Am I really going to agree with fluffer the PFA stooge? Yes, Yes I will

I am again going to give Druff my take on this from another perspective, the perspective of someone who thinks before acting.

Here's a chain of events that we'll go through point by point & decide the optimal play:

1. Micon posts a quote of Druff's that clearly show a contradiction to his claim that he never vouched for peterdc. It even has the exact word "vouch".

What's the optimal play here?

If he honestly doesn't remember this exact quote than the optimal play would be to go find that thread & confirm that he did indeed write that. I absolutely think he did this.

After confirming that he did write this he should probably confirm, through his administration powers that he still has on DD, that his words have not been somehow edited to make him look bad. I absolutely believe he did this also.

Next he should probably return to his own forum & admit those were indeed his words but explain that a "vouch" for $500 is not like a "vouch" for $1million. He should also explain that when you "vouch" for someone it's not for perpetuity & when you "vouch" for someone it is on a case by case basis & could change from week to week for the same person. If this wasn't the case than guys who vouched for Layne Flack or Eskimo Clark back in the day are fucked because now they would be on the hook for them since they at one time had vouched for them. I think he eventually did this but actually gave some weak explanation that noone got hurt by his vouching for him &, while this is probably true, it's not really the point. He should have left the rationalizing of it out & just admitted a mistake in his words & moved on & he did admit it was a mistake.

While this portion he didn't play optimally, he didn't do too bad & he shouldn't be roasted for it although he knew that a few trolls wouldn't be able to resist & he would have to deal with a few naysayers & weather the storm.

Up to this point there really isn't or should there be a problem but they are about to start & I'm going to speculate just a little bit.

2. Somebody in the Micon camp has noticed that Todd was on the DD site using his admisistrative account & looking at the peterdc thread. It looks like he was trying to use his powers to see if he could edit posts other than his own & reports this to Micon.

Another scenario, & maybe more likely, is that whoever noticed Todd was in that thread just told Micon this & being a big time pot smoker & someone who would be prone to bouts of paranoia was concerned that Todd was attempting to edit his posts to make himself look good & not have to admit that he had written this. Maybe the mod himself even put it in his ear & was trying to coerce the situation to drive traffic for their site. We all know there's nothing wrong with a little drama.

Now Micon, not wanting a repeat of the Drexel fiasco where he couldn't de-mod him, did the one thing he knew would prevent Druff from his administrative account. Then the mod that is in Micon's ear or Druffs insider(they may be the same)let him know that his account was de-activated. Another possibility is that Druff just stumbled onto it himself but would most likely this info was relayed to him by his mole & remember this might be the same guy in Micon's ear that, although he is Druffs friend, knows a little drama will drive traffic.

Now what would be Todd's optimal play?

Well he should probably give Micon a call & ask what's up with the banning. At this point you'd hope that Micon would tell him that they know he was in the peterdc thread & are trying to determine whether he was attempting to change history. Druff should then explain that he was just confirming that he had written that & was satisfied that nobody had edited his post. & when Micon confirmed for himself that he had not changed anything that he was legally obligated & should re-activate his account according to the terms of the contract.

I believe a version of this conversation did take place but was much less cordial & probably opened up with threats followed by denials & a bunch of crap that people say when they are tilted, backed into a corner & feel they are being attacked. This conversation did nothing for the situation & probably left both parties feeling the other is being unreasonable & ended with both parties agreeing that the other could go fuck themselves.

3. Still at this point there has really been no damage done & this could possibly still be resolved. Druff can come on here & say wll he breached the contract & be 100% correct but what damage has been done to his family at this point? NONE. Potentially there could be some if it doesn't get resolved , but at this point there is none. By his own words, he only moved 1 thing he felt was his right to move in 6 months so obviously some of his fears were actually being proven to be unfounded, although totally understandable. At this point what are the chances that one of his trolls would go on a posting spree on this exact day? Since it only happened once, with 2 pictures in 6 months, I'd say they were pretty slim. At least at odds that any poker player would take in an all-in situation for a substantial percentage of their bankroll & were probably in the 99 to 1 range & maybe even higher.

What's the optimal play now?

If you're really concerned about the trolls being able to post family pictures the optimal move would be to calm yourself & come up with a plan that reaches those objectives. This might take a day or two & in the meantime it might get resolved if Micon was telling the truth about them having concerns you were trying to change history & I actually believe this is possible. The way he de-activated you points to a desperate man who knows almost nothing about computors & is dealing with someone like Druff that knows a whole lot more than himself considering Druff has a degree in CS. Being calm & coming up with a gameplan is the way to go.

4. The last thing I would do is start a thread detailing the situation. This is the least optimal play IMO although great drama has ensued.

Why do I say this? Why would anyone that is concerned about family info being posted on anther forum announce to the world that there is no longer anything he could do about it? If the trolls didn't know you still had these powers & they only posted 1 thing in 6 months that you felt the needed to moved then it's not really a problem. If they did know that you could protect yourself in this way then WHY would you tell them it's now open season & you can now do nothing to stop it? I'm truly baffled by this. The only explanation is SUPER-DUPER MONKEY TILT something that you're in denial about but was very obvious to everyone watching it unfold.

After Super-Duper Monkey Tilthas taken over on both sides, there is ZERO CHANCE for the optimal plays being made. The only moves from this point going forward, on both sides, were & are uber-douchy & make little sense to any rationally thinking person. I don't know, maybe you both were trying to out douche each other.

Druff, you responded to another post I made on the situation & stated that you had to show Micon there are consequences for what he did. Well if you don't think there are consequences coming from Micon for you contacting Draftday(& yes tweeting them constitutes contacting them in my book)then you are delusional on this point. When you start fucking with someone's income ability & therefore family(which is what you are trying to protect for yourself)you better be ready for the shit slinging to escalate to unbelievable proportions. If anybody did this to me, whether I think I'm right or know I'm wrong, they better be prepared for the fight of their life because I'd be a prick about it too & so would you.

5. There was a point where this could have a decent resolution, but that has most likely passed.

Good luck with your lawsuit & I hope it was worth it to you because it looks like the only possible resolution at this point.

BTW you're doing the right thing at this point by napping it out & hopefully cooler heads will prevail. I doubt it though.

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Originally Posted by Jasep

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Originally Posted by tony bagadonuts

http://www.freewebs.com/matthewrobbi...f%20Reason.JPG

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While I always value you being the voice of reason, I disagree with some of what you are saying.

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Love that pic.

Reasonable people can disagree J, and I certainly could be wrong. Shit, with all of the paid meds I've taken over the last week I probably am.

I was going to share my root canal hell week trip report but frankly I just didn't think it was that compelling. I can summarize with one word...

OUCH

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Originally Posted by tony bagadonuts

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Originally Posted by Jasep

While I always value you being the voice of reason, I disagree with some of what you are saying.

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Love that pic.

Reasonable people can disagree J, and I certainly could be wrong. Shit, with all of the paid meds I've taken over the last week I probably am.

I was going to share my root canal hell week trip report but frankly I just didn't think it was that compelling. I can summarize with one word...

OUCH

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Where I think you are wrong is saying that the website is only worth what someone would pay for it, that's simply not true. The site has value. It generates revenue. It has affiliate dollars that come in and it has advertising dollars to come in, it also has plenty of potential for future value that may or may not ever get put in to action. It also has an email list that is very large and is very specialized that has value.

I have no idea what the actual value is but I can speculate and I can say that I have recently / am in the process of buying a percentage of my own website and selling another percentage of my website (just general ownership shuffling) while I still own way more than what would be considered a controlling interest we still took a look at our average affiliate revenue, costs, contracted advertising revenue and future potential advertising revenue.

If you believe what Druff says (and I don't really have reason not to believe what he said) than he never had access to the financials of the business, for all we know they don't even exist. Also, if you believe what Todd says it took 5 weeks for the site to generate 1200 to pay him. So thats somewhere in the neighborhood of 12k in revenue a year I suppose. But that is with the bare minimum being done to bring in revenue. No ongoing Merge affiliation (other than past hero sign ups) No new advertisers coming on board, no retail improvements since those hats.

I would say Druff was underpaid by a minimum of 50% and probably even more than that, but Druff took this deal because of the stipulations in the contract. Druff was trading his quarter of the company for 1200 dollars AND the terms of the contract, not just one of those things. I doubt Druff would have taken twice the money he did take with no contract at all. Steve's car analogy was pretty spot on in this regard. While it isn't as standard a number as a blue book value on a car it is still something can be figured out, and since Druff himself offered double the value to buy the site himself than we know what one buyer was willing to pay anyway.

Was Druff scammed? kind of... It probably wasn't premeditated and Micon has a history of going on some pretty questionable tilt rampages, but Druff has a history of overreacting to things and probably could have toned this all down a bit. A legal agreement was violated, thats not something you can just do because you feel like it. I don't think Bryan intentionally scammed Druff out of money but I think Bryan probably didn't think the whole thing through and was at a point in life where anything more than what he paid would have been to tough to come by so he just said fuck it and gave in to Druffs demands and now regrets it and he should probably pay something for that.

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Originally Posted by tony bagadonuts

ound logic and reasoning. I am curious as two a couple of your comments:

1 - Do you think the site was worth more than 5k at the time the agreement was written? I don't know the financials but I would be shocked if it was more than that.

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100 % worth more than 5k , Id guess Donkdown is pulling in 2k per month easy and could pull in 5x that if any effort was put in

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/3939/bryankl.jpg

ESPN has obtained a copy of the contract in question. After reviewing the contract with my team I see the case falling favorably in the hands Todd 'Dan Druff' Witteles.

From what I am gathering the general media feels this case will never get to court and I believe it will. And when it does expect Witteles and his lawyers to have a lot of success presenting their case.


I'm Roger Cossack ESPN

Druff,

Again you are not thinking about this. No poker site is going to want to worry about someone who takes such trivial stuff so fucking seriously so you can forget your management position.

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Originally Posted by tony bagadonuts

Oh man, where do I start....

Razor, +1 for the use of pedantic on an internet forum. Although I was familiar with the gist of the meaning, I actually had to look it up which to me is great. Razor gets the word of the day prize.


Steve-O, great, thought-provoking post with sound logic and reasoning. I am curious as two a couple of your comments:

1 - Regarding the value of the forum, unless you have seen the contract, which as far as I know nobody really has, how can you say that both parties agreed in writing that the value of the forum was greater than was was agreed upon? Do you think the site was worth more than 5k at the time the agreement was written? I don't know the financials but I would be shocked if it was more than that.

2 - I don't think the Lamborghini analogy is correct. It's one thing to sell a tangible asset with a book value for a fraction of its worth, it's entirely another to try to value a 3rd-tier poker forum with a very small user base.

Part of the problem is that we all have to speculate as to the actual verbiage of the contract. Without seeing it, we are all spitballing to some extent.


Druff - There is no doubt that you could spend Micon into the ground, make his life very miserable for a while and probably end up getting him to sell you the site and end up with DD if that is your end game. You are well within your rights to pursue legal action as you choose, but that doesn't mean you should. At any time Micon could restore your access to the previous level and would no longer be in violation of the contract (as I understand it).

If you could somehow prove intent, that Micon defrauded you, then you might have a case for actual damages and could rightfully label him as a scammer. This would be very tough to prove and in reality probably isn't true as it's likely that Micon didn't even give it that much thought.

Fluffer - I pretty much agree with everything you stated.


Neveragain - Disagree bro. I'm all for drama and lulz, but I couldn't in good conscience endorse actually moving forward with a lawsuit.

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Thanks Tony, welcome the debate :)

Point #1a -- Druff has pretty much told us what the contract states, and with his and Micon's posts on the topic (there were also some discussions on air), even if it's not in the actual contract, Druff made it crystal clear why he was selling the site to Micon at the reduced rate --Micon did not have the money to pay more and Druff exchanged equity for concessions in the sale; a normal business practice. Even so, the undervaluing is only a smaller point in the grand scheme of Micon breaking the contract. Basically it would just make a strong case even stronger if it could be proved.

Point #1b -- The sale of a business is always a tricky thing as is putting a value on it, but from my experience a good rule of thumb for a stable business is 5 years worth of revenue + assetts. Even if you figure DD is a $100/month business (which is obviously a low figure when you look at past and future earnings) you would be looking at $6,000 of value. In a legitimate sale they would also look at the recent upward or downward trends and such as well. In this case you also have a developed online poker site with a solid base of members, in a highly driven affiliate market as the assets. While the website is nothing special to look at, it would still take several thousand dollars to get a similar site off the ground (if you do it yourself your time is valued). There is also the marketing and any ad-buys the site has done over the years.

Point #2 -- Without the bad reputation (the pics and language in the forum) a similar site, with a similar track record would be worth up to $30k in my estimation. Everything has a value: the podcast, any strategic advice offered in the forum is intellectual property, website developers would have a $ value assigned to every member of the forum and every post on the site. The value of the site isn't intangible in my opinion: You have a developed site, a brand, members, and a product in the radio and forum.

What I see here (fwiw) is a situation where a partnership broke up, and an agreement was made in relation to this. What I also see is that both parties, while happy enough with the agreement to sign it at the time, neither really could see very far ahead and anticipate what future events would happen that would affect the desire of either party to strictly adhere to the agreement. Had both parties gone their separate ways, it is more likely that all would have ended well.

That isn't what happened.

Instead, DD lost another partner, and Druff set up a new site, a site clearly fishing in the same pond as DD, a pond that from the perspective of Micon, I imagine, now belongs to him 100%. So, instead of Druff and Micon being ex-partners walking off into the sunset, they now have become direct rivals and are competing for attention and business. Strike 1. Druff already has sponsorship that Micon could have gotten. Strike 2. The PeterDC issue was the final catalyst. Strike 3! Micon saw the opportunity to discredit, not his old partner and friend, but his new business rival. Micon took this opportunity. Almost immediately, Druff also made attempts to discredit Micon by including @draftday in his tweats.

The battle was on.

While this may be framed as a dispute over a contract, what we really have here is competition. What we see is two business rivals competing hard, with elbows up, in the same industry for the same customers and sponsorships using every tool at their disposal to try to win the battle. The competition will not likely end with a lawsuit about a contract (whether the lawsuit actually happens or not) since that isn't really what is going on here.

Prophecy bump

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Originally Posted by Muck Ficon

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/3939/bryankl.jpg

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Originally Posted by Jasep

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Originally Posted by tony bagadonuts

Love that pic.

Reasonable people can disagree J, and I certainly could be wrong. Shit, with all of the paid meds I've taken over the last week I probably am.

I was going to share my root canal hell week trip report but frankly I just didn't think it was that compelling. I can summarize with one word...

OUCH

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Where I think you are wrong is saying that the website is only worth what someone would pay for it, that's simply not true. The site has value. It generates revenue. It has affiliate dollars that come in and it has advertising dollars to come in, it also has plenty of potential for future value that may or may not ever get put in to action. It also has an email list that is very large and is very specialized that has value.

I have no idea what the actual value is but I can speculate and I can say that I have recently / am in the process of buying a percentage of my own website and selling another percentage of my website (just general ownership shuffling) while I still own way more than what would be considered a controlling interest we still took a look at our average affiliate revenue, costs, contracted advertising revenue and future potential advertising revenue.

If you believe what Druff says (and I don't really have reason not to believe what he said) than he never had access to the financials of the business, for all we know they don't even exist. Also, if you believe what Todd says it took 5 weeks for the site to generate 1200 to pay him. So thats somewhere in the neighborhood of 12k in revenue a year I suppose. But that is with the bare minimum being done to bring in revenue. No ongoing Merge affiliation (other than past hero sign ups) No new advertisers coming on board, no retail improvements since those hats.

I would say Druff was underpaid by a minimum of 50% and probably even more than that, but Druff took this deal because of the stipulations in the contract. Druff was trading his quarter of the company for 1200 dollars AND the terms of the contract, not just one of those things. I doubt Druff would have taken twice the money he did take with no contract at all. Steve's car analogy was pretty spot on in this regard. While it isn't as standard a number as a blue book value on a car it is still something can be figured out, and since Druff himself offered double the value to buy the site himself than we know what one buyer was willing to pay anyway.

Was Druff scammed? kind of... It probably wasn't premeditated and Micon has a history of going on some pretty questionable tilt rampages, but Druff has a history of overreacting to things and probably could have toned this all down a bit. A legal agreement was violated, thats not something you can just do because you feel like it. I don't think Bryan intentionally scammed Druff out of money but I think Bryan probably didn't think the whole thing through and was at a point in life where anything more than what he paid would have been to tough to come by so he just said fuck it and gave in to Druffs demands and now regrets it and he should probably pay something for that.

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wow it's amazing the shit that this guy posted in hindsight

LOL, 2 years later and he still does this.

I didn't know someone tried calling him out on this.
As intelligent as the guy is, he remains behind the times on 2 fronts when to use the word gay,
and health. (I still love the post "bottom line I lost 20 lbs", no..... bottom line is you gained it all back when your diet ended)

The bottom line is, if you still say something is "gay" instead of something sucks, or call someone a faggot instead of a dick, you are more ignorant than the hillbillies of nascar.


NASCAR Becomes Latest To Denounce Indiana Anti-Gay 'Religious Freedom' Law
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement...us_freedom_law

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by verminaard

I think Druff said he was like 6'3" and 30 pounds over his ideal weight. I am guessing he is well over 200 pounds.

Also Druff, you probably dont watch a lot of TV commercials, but FYI there is a big public service announcement campaign basically saying that it is not cool to use gay as a synonym for lame. I don't want this to come back to haunt you when you hit the big time, so just wanted to let you know now.

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I was once 170 pounds. That was sometime around 1995.

I am well over 200. Also, I'm more than 30 pounds above my "ideal" weight, but I said that I'd like to lose 30-35 pounds because getting much below that would be unrealistic for me, barring a starvation diet or extreme long-term exercise program.

Regarding the "gay" thing, I have to respectfully disagree:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3etdA3K-qGY

... and that's from Katy Perry, who even kissed a girl and liked it.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Fluffer, many of your ideas as to what to do with myself within the poker community are good, and I have considered a lot of those things already.

I will definitely be trying to get a management position within one of the legalized US poker sites when they eventually come to pass. I agree that distancing myself from DD as much as possible would be helpful toward that goal, as that site has probably hurt my ability to be taken seriously to some degree.

However, filing a lawsuit to protect a contract that has been breached will not jeopardize any of that. It's not like Micon is some major respected player in the industry, and I'll be blackballed for engaging in a dispute with him. The truth is simply that nobody outside of these 2 forums is really going to give a shit about it.

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*giggling*