An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by simpdog

Druff -> You can't compare Norway/Sweden in 2020 to anything in 2021. There's new strains, people are vaccinated and lots of other variables.

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Of course you can. And it's exactly because the evidence from those days is much more pure due to fewer variables (only one strain, no vaccine, etc).

We were told in mid-2020 that masks defined responsible COVID behavior.

Norway proved that was not true -- albeit unintentionally. Back then, there was only one strain and no vaccine, so there weren't any complicating factors. They didn't mask at all, and yet their outcomes were great, even in the big city. How was that possible?

At the same time, we did not see noticeable better outcomes in places with mask mandates versus those that didn't have such mandates.

If masks were/are so useful, then we would see a stark difference -- both then and now -- in COVID outcomes due to mask mandates. We don't, and never have.

That can't be ignored, and all the lab studies and scientific "consensus" doesn't supersede cold data and mathematics.

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Yes, there's literally no other variables to control for, so we can definitely generalize the example of Norway to fit in with our talk show radio commentary and conservative message board babble.

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Originally Posted by donkdowndonedied

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I don't care why Trump said the lab leak thing at first. Even if he just took a wild guess and turned out to be right, it doesn't matter.

What does matter is that very quickly we learned about the Wuhan lab, the gain-of-function research there, and of course we already knew China's propensity to lie and cover things up.

At the very least, the lab leak theory should have been an ongoing, serious discussion. You don't have to believe it's 100% certain in order to warrant discussion of it.

But nope! Not allowed! Discussion was shut down on Twitter. The media relegated it to conspiracy territory. The "experts" all agreed that it was impossible, and that anyone who thought otherwise was a racist moron.

This defied common sense, but we were all told to believe it, because the "experts" said so, and since the rest of us aren't virology experts, we need to shut our mouths and ignore the obvious. And if we don't, Twitter will ban us.

You don't see a problem with all this?

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I see a problem with many parts of it. I'd like to see where respected media was saying it was impossible that it came from a lab. You quote "experts" saying it was impossible. Well, can you show me any links where they were that strong in their conviction using words like "impossible"? I suspect your memory of this is largely manufactured.

The problem here is that there is a nexus of many issues. A lot of nationalism bullshit that will prevent a lot of serious discussion and the "discussion" would be largely relegated to a few data points shared by everyone.

Twitter made a mistake, yes. It is one private company.

You love to take one example and extrapolate it. It is unfortunate that twitter wields so much power, but they're not "the media".

I agree that the media buried discussion of the subject early on, but I really don't think there was that much to discuss. You pretty much laid out all the data points we had at that point in your post. There is not going to be a serious dialogue arising from that. So you're right in that it was wrong that it was censored, but meh it isn't like some lifelong conspiracy to keep people in the dark. All the discussions would have been more or less meaningless at the time except to froth up Trump's supporters. That is still true.

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He's misremembering a study about how it was very unlikely/impossibly that Covid-19 was engineered from the natural sample that was closest out of all the samples we knew China/Wuhan had.

And that's what happens when people know very little about the subject. The above is a very simple "fact" as science knows facts. Well above 99% true. Literally nothing has happened to that fact. It's still just as unlikely. There's no statement in it about leaks or how many unknown samples of viruses China has.

The "experts" are aware of leaks. Those happen all the time in pretty much any country that does any major research work. And they have fairly good idea how shoddy recordkeeping still is for all kinds of reasons.

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Originally Posted by gimmick

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Originally Posted by donkdowndonedied

I see a problem with many parts of it. I'd like to see where respected media was saying it was impossible that it came from a lab. You quote "experts" saying it was impossible. Well, can you show me any links where they were that strong in their conviction using words like "impossible"? I suspect your memory of this is largely manufactured.

The problem here is that there is a nexus of many issues. A lot of nationalism bullshit that will prevent a lot of serious discussion and the "discussion" would be largely relegated to a few data points shared by everyone.

Twitter made a mistake, yes. It is one private company.

You love to take one example and extrapolate it. It is unfortunate that twitter wields so much power, but they're not "the media".

I agree that the media buried discussion of the subject early on, but I really don't think there was that much to discuss. You pretty much laid out all the data points we had at that point in your post. There is not going to be a serious dialogue arising from that. So you're right in that it was wrong that it was censored, but meh it isn't like some lifelong conspiracy to keep people in the dark. All the discussions would have been more or less meaningless at the time except to froth up Trump's supporters. That is still true.

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He's misremembering a study about how it was very unlikely/impossibly that Covid-19 was engineered from the natural sample that was closest out of all the samples we knew China/Wuhan had.

And that's what happens when people know very little about the subject. The above is a very simple "fact" as science knows facts. Well above 99% true. Literally nothing has happened to that fact. It's still just as unlikely. There's no statement in it about leaks or how many unknown samples of viruses China has.

The "experts" are aware of leaks. Those happen all the time in pretty much any country that does any major research work. And they have fairly good idea how shoddy recordkeeping still is for all kinds of reasons.

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I recently listened to a highly regarded virologist on what they know of the earliest stages of the Corona virus. He said the origin was likely a visitor to the Wuhan wet market, likely asymptomatic.

He said the chances of this virus spreading as it did was almost a fluke. Highly unlikely. More than most known viruses.

But hey, he's just an expert in this field, not running for office so it's a coin toss, right?

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Originally Posted by limitles

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Originally Posted by gimmick

He's misremembering a study about how it was very unlikely/impossibly that Covid-19 was engineered from the natural sample that was closest out of all the samples we knew China/Wuhan had.

And that's what happens when people know very little about the subject. The above is a very simple "fact" as science knows facts. Well above 99% true. Literally nothing has happened to that fact. It's still just as unlikely. There's no statement in it about leaks or how many unknown samples of viruses China has.

The "experts" are aware of leaks. Those happen all the time in pretty much any country that does any major research work. And they have fairly good idea how shoddy recordkeeping still is for all kinds of reasons.

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I recently listened to a highly regarded virologist on what they know of the earliest stages of the Corona virus. He said the origin was likely a visitor to the Wuhan wet market, likely asymptomatic.

He said the chances of this virus spreading as it did was almost a fluke. Highly unlikely. More than most known viruses.

But hey, he's just an expert in this field, not running for office so it's a coin toss, right?

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You can’t trust those “scientists,” are you crazy? Come on over to my right-wing militia website that’s a front operation for Russian intelligence. That’s where you’ll find the real story. Bring your ivermectin.

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Originally Posted by TheXFactor

You need a better mask.


https://i.insider.com/5f513b59e6ff30...jpeg&auto=webp

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You assholes have had enough time to buy and wear n95 or 99 masks. So u do u I will breathe freely. Kindly fuck off already.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by simpdog

Druff -> You can't compare Norway/Sweden in 2020 to anything in 2021. There's new strains, people are vaccinated and lots of other variables.

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Of course you can. And it's exactly because the evidence from those days is much more pure due to fewer variables (only one strain, no vaccine, etc).

We were told in mid-2020 that masks defined responsible COVID behavior.

Norway proved that was not true -- albeit unintentionally. Back then, there was only one strain and no vaccine, so there weren't any complicating factors. They didn't mask at all, and yet their outcomes were great, even in the big city. How was that possible?

At the same time, we did not see noticeable better outcomes in places with mask mandates versus those that didn't have such mandates.

If masks were/are so useful, then we would see a stark difference -- both then and now -- in COVID outcomes due to mask mandates. We don't, and never have.

That can't be ignored, and all the lab studies and scientific "consensus" doesn't supersede cold data and mathematics.

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So you're saying you disagree with the assessment of the experts at the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, and 141 studies & academic papers they cite in the article when they conclude:

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Our review of the literature offers evidence in favor of widespread mask use as source control to reduce community transmission: Nonmedical masks use materials that obstruct particles of the necessary size; people are most infectious in the initial period postinfection, where it is common to have few or no symptoms (45, 46, 141); nonmedical masks have been effective in reducing transmission of respiratory viruses; and places and time periods where mask usage is required or widespread have shown substantially lower community transmission.

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Please cite your sources that dispute their claims.

Not your opinions, or your anecdotes.

Your scientifically rigorous sources.

PS, regarding Norway... this is from August 2020:

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Norwegian health officials on Friday recommended people wear face masks while using public transportation in and around the capital, Oslo, amid a rise in COVID-19 cases, its first recommendation for face coverings since the pandemic began.

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ref: https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-p...n/6194427.html

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Originally Posted by splitthis

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Originally Posted by TheXFactor

You need a better mask.

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You assholes have had enough time to buy and wear n95 or 99 masks. So u do u I will breathe freely. Kindly fuck off already.

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Originally Posted by limitles

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Originally Posted by splitthis

You assholes have had enough time to buy and wear n95 or 99 masks. So u do u I will breathe freely. Kindly fuck off already.

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Originally Posted by khalwat

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Of course you can. And it's exactly because the evidence from those days is much more pure due to fewer variables (only one strain, no vaccine, etc).

We were told in mid-2020 that masks defined responsible COVID behavior.

Norway proved that was not true -- albeit unintentionally. Back then, there was only one strain and no vaccine, so there weren't any complicating factors. They didn't mask at all, and yet their outcomes were great, even in the big city. How was that possible?

At the same time, we did not see noticeable better outcomes in places with mask mandates versus those that didn't have such mandates.

If masks were/are so useful, then we would see a stark difference -- both then and now -- in COVID outcomes due to mask mandates. We don't, and never have.

That can't be ignored, and all the lab studies and scientific "consensus" doesn't supersede cold data and mathematics.

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So you're saying you disagree with the assessment of the experts at the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, and 141 studies & academic papers they site in the article when they conclude:

Quote:

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Our review of the literature offers evidence in favor of widespread mask use as source control to reduce community transmission: Nonmedical masks use materials that obstruct particles of the necessary size; people are most infectious in the initial period postinfection, where it is common to have few or no symptoms (45, 46, 141); nonmedical masks have been effective in reducing transmission of respiratory viruses; and places and time periods where mask usage is required or widespread have shown substantially lower community transmission.

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Please cite your sources that dispute their claims.

Not your opinions, or your anecdotes.

Your scientifically rigorous sources.

PS, regarding Norway... this is from August 2020:

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Norwegian health officials on Friday recommended people wear face masks while using public transportation in and around the capital, Oslo, amid a rise in COVID-19 cases, its first recommendation for face coverings since the pandemic began.

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ref: https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-p...n/6194427.html

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"experts"

go fuck yourself faggot

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Originally Posted by dwai

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Originally Posted by khalwat

So you're saying you disagree with the assessment of the experts at the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, and 141 studies & academic papers they site in the article when they conclude:

Quote:

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Our review of the literature offers evidence in favor of widespread mask use as source control to reduce community transmission: Nonmedical masks use materials that obstruct particles of the necessary size; people are most infectious in the initial period postinfection, where it is common to have few or no symptoms (45, 46, 141); nonmedical masks have been effective in reducing transmission of respiratory viruses; and places and time periods where mask usage is required or widespread have shown substantially lower community transmission.

---

Please cite your sources that dispute their claims.

Not your opinions, or your anecdotes.

Your scientifically rigorous sources.

PS, regarding Norway... this is from August 2020:

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Norwegian health officials on Friday recommended people wear face masks while using public transportation in and around the capital, Oslo, amid a rise in COVID-19 cases, its first recommendation for face coverings since the pandemic began.

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ref: https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-p...n/6194427.html

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"experts"

go fuck yourself faggot

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Yeah who do these doctors and scientists think they are anyway?

Pretty sure khalwat isn’t a faggot though, he once took a half hour break from radio to fuck his wife and then got right back on radio. Like a fucking BOSS.

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Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak

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Originally Posted by dwai

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Originally Posted by khalwat

So you're saying you disagree with the assessment of the experts at the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, and 141 studies & academic papers they site in the article when they conclude:



Please cite your sources that dispute their claims.

Not your opinions, or your anecdotes.

Your scientifically rigorous sources.

PS, regarding Norway... this is from August 2020:

Quote:

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Norwegian health officials on Friday recommended people wear face masks while using public transportation in and around the capital, Oslo, amid a rise in COVID-19 cases, its first recommendation for face coverings since the pandemic began.

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ref: https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-p...n/6194427.html

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"experts"

go fuck yourself faggot

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Yeah who do these doctors and scientists think they are anyway?

Pretty sure khalwat isn’t a faggot though, he once took a half hour break from radio to fuck his wife and then got right back on radio. Like a fucking BOSS.

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khalwat isn't a faggot but when he's spewing bullshit I'm gonna call him on it, none of this shit is real world tested with the bullshit masks people wear in real life.


you can find any faggot "experts" to spew whatever bullshit you pay them for especially post 2019

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Originally Posted by dwai

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Originally Posted by khalwat

So you're saying you disagree with the assessment of the experts at the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, and 141 studies & academic papers they site in the article when they conclude:

Quote:

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Our review of the literature offers evidence in favor of widespread mask use as source control to reduce community transmission: Nonmedical masks use materials that obstruct particles of the necessary size; people are most infectious in the initial period postinfection, where it is common to have few or no symptoms (45, 46, 141); nonmedical masks have been effective in reducing transmission of respiratory viruses; and places and time periods where mask usage is required or widespread have shown substantially lower community transmission.

---

Please cite your sources that dispute their claims.

Not your opinions, or your anecdotes.

Your scientifically rigorous sources.

PS, regarding Norway... this is from August 2020:

Quote:

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Norwegian health officials on Friday recommended people wear face masks while using public transportation in and around the capital, Oslo, amid a rise in COVID-19 cases, its first recommendation for face coverings since the pandemic began.

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ref: https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-p...n/6194427.html

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"experts"

go fuck yourself faggot

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Dwong again

/thread

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Originally Posted by dwai

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Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak

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Originally Posted by dwai

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Originally Posted by khalwat

So you're saying you disagree with the assessment of the experts at the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, and 141 studies & academic papers they site in the article when they conclude:



Please cite your sources that dispute their claims.

Not your opinions, or your anecdotes.

Your scientifically rigorous sources.

PS, regarding Norway... this is from August 2020:



ref: https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-p...n/6194427.html

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"experts"

go fuck yourself faggot

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Yeah who do these doctors and scientists think they are anyway?

Pretty sure khalwat isn’t a faggot though, he once took a half hour break from radio to fuck his wife and then got right back on radio. Like a fucking BOSS.

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khalwat isn't a faggot but when he's spewing bullshit I'm gonna call him on it, none of this shit is real world tested with the bullshit masks people wear in real life.


you can find any faggot "experts" to spew whatever bullshit you pay them for especially post 2019

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That’s so true. It’s why so many people falsely believe Trump won the election.

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Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak

Pretty sure khalwat isn’t a faggot though, he once took a half hour break from radio to fuck his wife and then got right back on radio. Like a fucking BOSS.

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haha, I forgot about that! Good times. :)

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Originally Posted by dwai

khalwat isn't a faggot but when he's spewing bullshit I'm gonna call him on it, none of this shit is real world tested with the bullshit masks people wear in real life.

you can find any faggot "experts" to spew whatever bullshit you pay them for especially post 2019

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What you're stating is literally included in the primary article, and also in many of the 141 cited studies. They look at the functionality of a wide variety of coverings that people are actually using in the real world.

Which tells me you didn't read the article, nor any of the cited studies so...

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Originally Posted by khalwat

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dwai

khalwat isn't a faggot but when he's spewing bullshit I'm gonna call him on it, none of this shit is real world tested with the bullshit masks people wear in real life.

you can find any faggot "experts" to spew whatever bullshit you pay them for especially post 2019

---

What you're stating is literally included in the primary article, and also in many of the 141 cited studies. They look at the functionality of a wide variety of coverings that people are actually using in the real world.

Which tells me you didn't read the article, nor any of the cited studies so...

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die mad about it faggot but not before you cancel another vacation before your booster dweeb

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Originally Posted by dwai

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Originally Posted by khalwat

What you're stating is literally included in the primary article, and also in many of the 141 cited studies. They look at the functionality of a wide variety of coverings that people are actually using in the real world.

Which tells me you didn't read the article, nor any of the cited studies so...

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die mad about it faggot but not before you cancel another vacation before your booster dweeb

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Booster? I damn near killed her.

"Model".

You could fill a telephone book with names of all the gamblers with models the sports books have busted.

I'm sure this model is just groovy.

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Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak

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Originally Posted by dwai

die mad about it faggot but not before you cancel another vacation before your booster dweeb

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Booster? I damn near killed her.

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Reminds me of a dumb joke. My/our dog ate a stick that was not coming out naturally.
Coming back from the vet my wife said was he in pain.

Yeah I said, it damn near rectum

Another stupid joke today that made a cashier laugh.
I went out for eggs this morning being an omelette guy.
After choosing the eggs I looked at the deli section and they had two
cooked chicken breasts for 5 bucks. Good for lunch.

The cashier scanned the chicken first, so I had to say chicken before the egg

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Originally Posted by gimmick

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

How is Wuhan Lab/Bioweapon a "conspiracy"?

That's pretty much what really happened.

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^From January this year. Still crickets about that bioweapon part. There's few more posts from last year how it's engineered. If only we had another flu variant that had killed millions in few years, we could a have a better guess how necessary it was to engineer Covid-19.

"few idiots added conspiracies onto the lab leak theory"- Dan Druff in September

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It's not unreasonable to discuss whether or not it was intended as a bioweapon. It's more likely that it was gain-of-function research escaping, but unless you trust China not to be developing bioweapons behind the scenes, that discussion also needs to be had.

The "conspiracy" stuff came from the claims that this was deliberately released by China to crash the world economy, and other claims like that.

I don't feel like digging into google for 2020 articles now, but mainstream media repeatedly told everyone that "experts" concluded that the lab leak theory was false, and I even remember seeing that exact statement on the Twitter sidebar, which is used by the platform to "correct misinformation" on current hot-button topics.

The biggest problem came from the complete shutdown of the discussion of the lab leak theory. Healthy debate is fine, and I don't fault people who come down on the opposite side of the lab leak theory. However, even considering the possibility of the lab leak theory being true was a sin in the eyes of the left and the mainstream media... until Trump lost, and then it was fine to consider.

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Originally Posted by khalwat

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Of course you can. And it's exactly because the evidence from those days is much more pure due to fewer variables (only one strain, no vaccine, etc).

We were told in mid-2020 that masks defined responsible COVID behavior.

Norway proved that was not true -- albeit unintentionally. Back then, there was only one strain and no vaccine, so there weren't any complicating factors. They didn't mask at all, and yet their outcomes were great, even in the big city. How was that possible?

At the same time, we did not see noticeable better outcomes in places with mask mandates versus those that didn't have such mandates.

If masks were/are so useful, then we would see a stark difference -- both then and now -- in COVID outcomes due to mask mandates. We don't, and never have.

That can't be ignored, and all the lab studies and scientific "consensus" doesn't supersede cold data and mathematics.

---

So you're saying you disagree with the assessment of the experts at the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, and 141 studies & academic papers they cite in the article when they conclude:

Quote:

---

Our review of the literature offers evidence in favor of widespread mask use as source control to reduce community transmission: Nonmedical masks use materials that obstruct particles of the necessary size; people are most infectious in the initial period postinfection, where it is common to have few or no symptoms (45, 46, 141); nonmedical masks have been effective in reducing transmission of respiratory viruses; and places and time periods where mask usage is required or widespread have shown substantially lower community transmission.

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This describes the transmission of "respiratory viruses", and not COVID specifically, which is a very different animal.

Regardless, there were some weak lab studies which showed cloth masks being of some usefulness, but only if worn completely correctly, and only in a lab environment. The problem was that this never translated to the real world. As hard as the left tried, they were unable to find any correlation between COVID spikes/declines and mask mandates. It seemed almost random, with no noticeable effect from masking. That's been the biggest indictment of cloth masks -- after over 18 months, we cannot find consistent data showing they're actually working.

Compare this to the vaccine, where it is very mathematically clear that populations with better vaccination rates are experiencing much better COVID outcomes.

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Originally Posted by khalwat

PS, regarding Norway... this is from August 2020:

Quote:

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Norwegian health officials on Friday recommended people wear face masks while using public transportation in and around the capital, Oslo, amid a rise in COVID-19 cases, its first recommendation for face coverings since the pandemic began.

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ref: https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-p...n/6194427.html

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Correct. In August 2020, after 6 months of among the best COVID outcomes in the world, despite almost zero masking, they finally had an uptick.

Leaders there hit the panic button because the rest of the world was screaming "OMG MASK SO IMPORTANT", so Norway had to finally go through the motions of masking, in order to demonstrate they were behaving "responsibly". Otherwise, if they didn't mask and COVID continued to spike up, the leaders' heads would have been on a stick. However, the first 6 months of non-masking (and the good outcomes) shows that masking had little to do with good and bad COVID outcomes.

BTW, the masking didn't bring down the COVID incidence in Norway. Like everywhere else, it had no effect. COVID did what COVID was gonna do.


Anyway, you said you hate masking, as do I. How long do you plan to mask? For the next year? 2 years? 10 years? The rest of your life?

It is pretty well accepted at this point that COVID is likely here to stay. We have vaccines, and they're easily available to everyone in the US for free. We are having this mask debate like it's 2020, but in reality we have a vaccine, and it's absurd we are talking about mask mandates again, when we both have a vaccine AND masks have failed to prove useful all this time.

At some point we have to accept the risks, and those who are concerned can either stay home from nonessential activities, or wear N-95/KN-95 masks themselves.

Mandating everyone wear masks is not the proper solution here, especially given that COVID is no longer expected to be a temporary problem.

In general, scientific research with a bias cannot be trusted.

Would you trust abortion stats solely researched by a pro-life group?

Would you trust 2020 election numbers solely researched by MAGA fanatics?

If not, then why are you trusting scientific studies from those with a political bias to want certain findings? It's pretty obvious that any scientist who runs afoul of left-wing COVID dogma will see their careers suffer, which is why many have to bite their collective tongues.

If we looked at the politics of the scientists concluding that cloth masks are useful to prevent the spread of COVID, what percentage would be left of center? Like almost all of them?

This is a big problem. You can't have politically biased scientists studying a hot-button political issue.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

In general, scientific research with a bias cannot be trusted.

Would you trust abortion stats solely researched by a pro-life group?

Would you trust 2020 election numbers solely researched by MAGA fanatics?

If not, then why are you trusting scientific studies from those with a political bias to want certain findings? It's pretty obvious that any scientist who runs afoul of left-wing COVID dogma will see their careers suffer, which is why many have to bite their collective tongues.

If we looked at the politics of the scientists concluding that cloth masks are useful to prevent the spread of COVID, what percentage would be left of center? Like almost all of them?

This is a big problem. You can't have politically biased scientists studying a hot-button political issue.

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This gets back to if you don’t trust the expert opinions then who’s do you trust? You’re also characterizing all medical professionals that perform these studies as doing so for political reasons which is tinfoil hat shit. Sure there’s some of that going on but scientists in general aren’t driven by politics. They typically choose to study science because they want to understand things.

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Originally Posted by nightmarefish

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

In general, scientific research with a bias cannot be trusted.

Would you trust abortion stats solely researched by a pro-life group?

Would you trust 2020 election numbers solely researched by MAGA fanatics?

If not, then why are you trusting scientific studies from those with a political bias to want certain findings? It's pretty obvious that any scientist who runs afoul of left-wing COVID dogma will see their careers suffer, which is why many have to bite their collective tongues.

If we looked at the politics of the scientists concluding that cloth masks are useful to prevent the spread of COVID, what percentage would be left of center? Like almost all of them?

This is a big problem. You can't have politically biased scientists studying a hot-button political issue.

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This gets back to if you don’t trust the expert opinions then who’s do you trust? You’re also characterizing all medical professionals that perform these studies as doing so for political reasons which is tinfoil hat shit. Sure there’s some of that going on but scientists in general aren’t driven by politics. They typically choose to study science because they want to understand things.

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At the moment, I don't trust anyone when it comes to COVID info. I just look at all the reports, all the data, and all the recommendations, and I make the best decision for myself and my family.

Notice I don't ever repeat any nonsense from some of the right regarding the vaccine. I looked at the data, decided that it was very wise to get it due to my age and other factors, and that the risk to me was small compared to the reward. At the same time, I am hesitant to give it to Benjamin when he's eligible, as he's still developing (which I'm not) and has MUCH MUCH less danger from COVID than I do. I haven't decided on that one yet, but I can tell you that the CDC's recommendation will mean little to me.

I take no pleasure in the scientific community being corrupted by politics. I don't want it being corrupted by either side. I just want the truth.

Experts are useful when they committed to giving you the facts, but very dangerous when they are influenced by outside forces.

I can't even completely blame the scientists who want to speak out against the left-wing COVID dogma, but don't want to risk their careers by doing so.

I think you're being naive in thinking scientists are not driven by politics here. Some may even be driven by politics without realizing it. If you already have a preexisting belief that we have a bad COVID problem because of them damn Republicans and their damn non-masking ways, your scientific opinion/research on masking is going to reflect that, even if you don't consciously try to do so.

People with preexisting strong opinions on a subject shouldn't be doing research on that topic. This is also true of the wacko "scientists" and "doctors" studying why the vaccine is evil and harmful. Whenever I see videos/articles from them, I don't even bother, because I know it's all biased bullshit.

Also, it's important to understand that I don't have a distrust for the experts when it comes to non-political scientific issues.

For example, I trust the FDA for the most part when it comes to approving medications for non-politicized ailments.

I just can't trust the "experts" regarding COVID, when there's such intense bias/pressure to come down with recommendations in a certain way. I mean, look, even under Trump, the CDC had the gall to recommend distribution of the vaccine based upon "racial equity" rather than age -- something no other country in the world recommended.

When history looks back on the early 2020s, the biggest mistake will be said to be the politicization of the virus. People in the year 2100 will look back and ask, "Why didn't those morons just cooperate and figure out what was really best for everyone?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gimmick

^From January this year. Still crickets about that bioweapon part. There's few more posts from last year how it's engineered. If only we had another flu variant that had killed millions in few years, we could a have a better guess how necessary it was to engineer Covid-19.

"few idiots added conspiracies onto the lab leak theory"- Dan Druff in September

---

It's not unreasonable to discuss whether or not it was intended as a bioweapon. It's more likely that it was gain-of-function research escaping, but unless you trust China not to be developing bioweapons behind the scenes, that discussion also needs to be had.

The "conspiracy" stuff came from the claims that this was deliberately released by China to crash the world economy, and other claims like that.

I don't feel like digging into google for 2020 articles now, but mainstream media repeatedly told everyone that "experts" concluded that the lab leak theory was false, and I even remember seeing that exact statement on the Twitter sidebar, which is used by the platform to "correct misinformation" on current hot-button topics.

The biggest problem came from the complete shutdown of the discussion of the lab leak theory. Healthy debate is fine, and I don't fault people who come down on the opposite side of the lab leak theory. However, even considering the possibility of the lab leak theory being true was a sin in the eyes of the left and the mainstream media... until Trump lost, and then it was fine to consider.

---

The biggest camp in the lab leak theory from last year was the Plandemic clowns. That BS was 100% misinformation spread for whatever reason. Nothing about it was "healthy" discussion.

At the time it was far more important to crush it than have a civil 6 month long discussion about what parts might resemble reality. But don't worry it wasn't successful. The same crap is still alive and kicking. It's now just a side strain of anti-vaxx and totally functional home remedy camp of team retard. And if it helps that's what's powering the US 2k deaths per day, with a fertile ground for mutations that will eventually overcome vaccines.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gimmick

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

It's not unreasonable to discuss whether or not it was intended as a bioweapon. It's more likely that it was gain-of-function research escaping, but unless you trust China not to be developing bioweapons behind the scenes, that discussion also needs to be had.

The "conspiracy" stuff came from the claims that this was deliberately released by China to crash the world economy, and other claims like that.

I don't feel like digging into google for 2020 articles now, but mainstream media repeatedly told everyone that "experts" concluded that the lab leak theory was false, and I even remember seeing that exact statement on the Twitter sidebar, which is used by the platform to "correct misinformation" on current hot-button topics.

The biggest problem came from the complete shutdown of the discussion of the lab leak theory. Healthy debate is fine, and I don't fault people who come down on the opposite side of the lab leak theory. However, even considering the possibility of the lab leak theory being true was a sin in the eyes of the left and the mainstream media... until Trump lost, and then it was fine to consider.

---

The biggest camp in the lab leak theory from last year was the Plandemic clowns. That BS was 100% misinformation spread for whatever reason. Nothing about it was "healthy" discussion.

At the time it was far more important to crush it than have a civil 6 month long discussion about what parts might resemble reality. But don't worry it wasn't successful. The same crap is still alive and kicking. It's now just a side strain of anti-vaxx and totally functional home remedy camp of team retard. And if it helps that's what's powering the US 2k deaths per day, with a fertile ground for mutations that will eventually overcome vaccines.

---

Variants are coming from shitholes of the world like AFRICA, not the unvaccinated here. What a complete shill idiot nonthinking ahole.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

This describes the transmission of "respiratory viruses", and not COVID specifically, which is a very different animal.

---

Wait.. hold up.. so we're operating under the belief that COVID is not a "respiratory virus" ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by splitthis

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gimmick

The biggest camp in the lab leak theory from last year was the Plandemic clowns. That BS was 100% misinformation spread for whatever reason. Nothing about it was "healthy" discussion.

At the time it was far more important to crush it than have a civil 6 month long discussion about what parts might resemble reality. But don't worry it wasn't successful. The same crap is still alive and kicking. It's now just a side strain of anti-vaxx and totally functional home remedy camp of team retard. And if it helps that's what's powering the US 2k deaths per day, with a fertile ground for mutations that will eventually overcome vaccines.

---

Variants are coming from shitholes of the world like AFRICA, not the unvaccinated here. What a complete shill idiot nonthinking ahole.

---

Why do you think the retarded Republican states have inordinately more people dying of COVID (LOL)?

What's the current retard theory for that, just fake news?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by khalwat

So you're saying you disagree with the assessment of the experts at the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, and 141 studies & academic papers they cite in the article when they conclude:

Quote:

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Our review of the literature offers evidence in favor of widespread mask use as source control to reduce community transmission: Nonmedical masks use materials that obstruct particles of the necessary size; people are most infectious in the initial period postinfection, where it is common to have few or no symptoms (45, 46, 141); nonmedical masks have been effective in reducing transmission of respiratory viruses; and places and time periods where mask usage is required or widespread have shown substantially lower community transmission.

---

---

This describes the transmission of "respiratory viruses", and not COVID specifically, which is a very different animal.

Regardless, there were some weak lab studies which showed cloth masks being of some usefulness, but only if worn completely correctly, and only in a lab environment. The problem was that this never translated to the real world. As hard as the left tried, they were unable to find any correlation between COVID spikes/declines and mask mandates. It seemed almost random, with no noticeable effect from masking. That's been the biggest indictment of cloth masks -- after over 18 months, we cannot find consistent data showing they're actually working.

Compare this to the vaccine, where it is very mathematically clear that populations with better vaccination rates are experiencing much better COVID outcomes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by khalwat

PS, regarding Norway... this is from August 2020:

Quote:

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Norwegian health officials on Friday recommended people wear face masks while using public transportation in and around the capital, Oslo, amid a rise in COVID-19 cases, its first recommendation for face coverings since the pandemic began.

---

ref: https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-p...n/6194427.html

---

Correct. In August 2020, after 6 months of among the best COVID outcomes in the world, despite almost zero masking, they finally had an uptick.

Leaders there hit the panic button because the rest of the world was screaming "OMG MASK SO IMPORTANT", so Norway had to finally go through the motions of masking, in order to demonstrate they were behaving "responsibly". Otherwise, if they didn't mask and COVID continued to spike up, the leaders' heads would have been on a stick. However, the first 6 months of non-masking (and the good outcomes) shows that masking had little to do with good and bad COVID outcomes.

BTW, the masking didn't bring down the COVID incidence in Norway. Like everywhere else, it had no effect. COVID did what COVID was gonna do.


Anyway, you said you hate masking, as do I. How long do you plan to mask? For the next year? 2 years? 10 years? The rest of your life?

It is pretty well accepted at this point that COVID is likely here to stay. We have vaccines, and they're easily available to everyone in the US for free. We are having this mask debate like it's 2020, but in reality we have a vaccine, and it's absurd we are talking about mask mandates again, when we both have a vaccine AND masks have failed to prove useful all this time.

At some point we have to accept the risks, and those who are concerned can either stay home from nonessential activities, or wear N-95/KN-95 masks themselves.

Mandating everyone wear masks is not the proper solution here, especially given that COVID is no longer expected to be a temporary problem.

---

JFC this is tiresome.

Do you wear rubber to fuck your wife?

I hope not, but i'm also fairly sure you don't correlate that with how useful condoms are.

That was Norway and Finland at the start of the pandemic. We didn't wear masks because we didn't have a widespread epidemic shitshow to deal with. What we did was the other very common and old protocols when dealing with a contagious disease. Our good friend Sweden decided to not do almost any of that. They had a widespread epidemic shitshow.

If OSA is even tenth as prolific in his escapades as he let's us know daily, then he probably should double wrap at all times, even when sitting at home alone watching TV.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gimmick

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by khalwat

So you're saying you disagree with the assessment of the experts at the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, and 141 studies & academic papers they cite in the article when they conclude:

---

This describes the transmission of "respiratory viruses", and not COVID specifically, which is a very different animal.

Regardless, there were some weak lab studies which showed cloth masks being of some usefulness, but only if worn completely correctly, and only in a lab environment. The problem was that this never translated to the real world. As hard as the left tried, they were unable to find any correlation between COVID spikes/declines and mask mandates. It seemed almost random, with no noticeable effect from masking. That's been the biggest indictment of cloth masks -- after over 18 months, we cannot find consistent data showing they're actually working.

Compare this to the vaccine, where it is very mathematically clear that populations with better vaccination rates are experiencing much better COVID outcomes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by khalwat

PS, regarding Norway... this is from August 2020:

Quote:

---

Norwegian health officials on Friday recommended people wear face masks while using public transportation in and around the capital, Oslo, amid a rise in COVID-19 cases, its first recommendation for face coverings since the pandemic began.

---

ref: https://www.voanews.com/a/covid-19-p...n/6194427.html

---

Correct. In August 2020, after 6 months of among the best COVID outcomes in the world, despite almost zero masking, they finally had an uptick.

Leaders there hit the panic button because the rest of the world was screaming "OMG MASK SO IMPORTANT", so Norway had to finally go through the motions of masking, in order to demonstrate they were behaving "responsibly". Otherwise, if they didn't mask and COVID continued to spike up, the leaders' heads would have been on a stick. However, the first 6 months of non-masking (and the good outcomes) shows that masking had little to do with good and bad COVID outcomes.

BTW, the masking didn't bring down the COVID incidence in Norway. Like everywhere else, it had no effect. COVID did what COVID was gonna do.


Anyway, you said you hate masking, as do I. How long do you plan to mask? For the next year? 2 years? 10 years? The rest of your life?

It is pretty well accepted at this point that COVID is likely here to stay. We have vaccines, and they're easily available to everyone in the US for free. We are having this mask debate like it's 2020, but in reality we have a vaccine, and it's absurd we are talking about mask mandates again, when we both have a vaccine AND masks have failed to prove useful all this time.

At some point we have to accept the risks, and those who are concerned can either stay home from nonessential activities, or wear N-95/KN-95 masks themselves.

Mandating everyone wear masks is not the proper solution here, especially given that COVID is no longer expected to be a temporary problem.

---

JFC this is tiresome.

Do you wear rubber to fuck your wife?

I hope not, but i'm also fairly sure you don't correlate that with how useful condoms are.

That was Norway and Finland at the start of the pandemic. We didn't wear masks because we didn't have a widespread epidemic shitshow to deal with. What we did was the other very common and old protocols when dealing with a contagious disease. Our good friend Sweden decided to not do almost any of that. They had a widespread epidemic shitshow.

If OSA is even tenth as prolific in his escapades as he let's us know daily, then he probably should double wrap at all times, even when sitting at home alone watching TV.

---

The last time I wore a condom, I had hair. Besides I can't find one that's big enough(thickness not length)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by splitthis

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gimmick

The biggest camp in the lab leak theory from last year was the Plandemic clowns. That BS was 100% misinformation spread for whatever reason. Nothing about it was "healthy" discussion.

At the time it was far more important to crush it than have a civil 6 month long discussion about what parts might resemble reality. But don't worry it wasn't successful. The same crap is still alive and kicking. It's now just a side strain of anti-vaxx and totally functional home remedy camp of team retard. And if it helps that's what's powering the US 2k deaths per day, with a fertile ground for mutations that will eventually overcome vaccines.

---

Variants are coming from shitholes of the world like AFRICA, not the unvaccinated here. What a complete shill idiot nonthinking ahole.

---

There are likely more than 10k variants. The exact number doesn't matter. We only care about the ones that do something special.

Now if you could read and comprehend whole sentences i wouldn't have to waste my time. I said "mutations that will eventually overcome vaccines". Before a vaccine the virus doesn't have the "vaccine" as the target to overcome. It targets the our natural immune system. Delta became the most common variant because of it, but it still hasn't beaten the vaccines.

It lives among the vaccinated to a degree, but it only spends a short amount of time reproducing and leaping to new targets. It has very limited time to defeat vaccines. This changes when vaccinated are in contact to the unvaccinated. Now the virus has a never replenishing reservoir to recharge. Every time the vaccinated defeat it is mostly futile, because the unvaccinated keep growing new jumpers all the fucking time.

Vaccine resistant strains almost never become dominant when there is a lack of vaccines. Mostly because the non resistant strains are better at spreading when they don't spend resources for defeating a specific barrier that doesn't exist.

Oh and all this is obv the highly rational discussion about the lab leak theory without anything crazy in the same package.

Something incoherent from Step with a resounding testimonial that he doesn't use condoms.

Something stupid from Split.

And if we're lucky, we just might get a word from Dwai. Well probably prepackaged talking points in the form of pictures and around 5 words, but he will keep spamming them well after the pandemic is over.

It’s almost like the very first fucking post all the way back by tine, who isn’t exactly alt-right, was:

So coronavirus is definitely going to kill a few of us.
- Origin is a level 4 bio lab 20 miles from the seafood market where the first patients contracted it.


It was never discounted as a possibility. His first post assumed it as it’s incredibly coincidental.

It just was never relevant at any point early. It truly wasn’t. Most of the top experts said it wasn’t very likely. And it didn’t matter. It would matter at some later point after we had dealt with the problem at hand.


First the firefighters come in and put out a fire, then the arson investigators determine who fucked up if anyone did. This is common sense to everyone except the people who don’t like that a fire started and want to pout about the timing of it and lay blame while it’s still raging.

You need proof and we still don’t have proof and the fire still isn’t put out.

If anything, it seems the consensus has swung back the other way. It was seriously considered right off the bat. Then the top guys weighed in and it wasn’t deemed probable. Then there was a movement for it to be taken seriously again. Now it seems to have swung back the other way and it’s still improbable as when the top scientists say show me, the people pushing the narrative can’t show them anything that makes sense.

We have yet anything definitive that says it comes from that lab. So either their scientists are better than ours despite working with way less resources, or you’d think someone could make a persuasive argument by now.

We were always discussing it. I recall reading the story about the guy who had a year earlier got caught selling animals from the lab to that wet market.

That made sense at least. Greed and incompetence.

It was clearly not some intentional bio-weapon, and if it was, only something aimed at their own aging population they couldn’t feed. But that didn’t make sense. It’s China. If they’re going to release a bio-weapon, it’s going to kill more than a few %. That doesn’t solve their problem.

It was certainly not aimed at taking down Trump, which is the narrative the insane people were putting forward. That’s what was pushed back against. The idea it was some virus put out by there to take down Trump and whatever crazy conspiracy you want to attach to it.

That’s still the consensus of the average GOP voter. The majority. If they think it came from Chinese lab, most also think something else crazy like its part of some orchestrated socialist globalist takeover. You can’t take people like that serious, and when that’s the prevalent opinion of a political movement, you can’t take the movement seriously.

We’ve had a virtual cure for six months now. You still have this large group of people who won’t take it. At that point, you have to idiot proof the country and go overboard. You can’t reason with them. They aren’t serious people to have a conversation with

BCR, it seems that you don't believe that the lab leak theory was shut down by the left in 2020?

People were banned from Twitter for discussing it.

The Twitter anti-misinformation sidebar mentioned that "experts have determined that COVID-19's origins were not from a lab".

The mainstream media would not accept this as a possibility, and only brought up the lab leak theory to discuss how racist or absurd it was.

Do you not remember any of this?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

BCR, it seems that you don't believe that the lab leak theory was shut down by the left in 2020?

People were banned from Twitter for discussing it.

The Twitter anti-misinformation sidebar mentioned that "experts have determined that COVID-19's origins were not from a lab".

The mainstream media would not accept this as a possibility, and only brought up the lab leak theory to discuss how racist or absurd it was.

Do you not remember any of this?

---

BCR is a fucking idiot

Here... I found this after about a minute of googling:

https://nypost.com/2021/05/28/twitte...b-leak-theory/

Quote:

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Two days after Facebook confirmed that it would no longer censor posts discussing whether the coronavirus pandemic originated from a Chinese lab leak, Twitter is refusing to say whether it will do the same.

Despite President Biden ordering US spy agencies to conduct a 90-day investigation into whether COVID-19 was released by the Wuhan Institute of Virology, Twitter said it had no updates to share at this time.

It has held firm in the two days since Biden’s order and the immediate move by Facebook.

---

There ya go. Facebook and Twitter both shut down discussion of the lab leak theory, and only in May 2021 did Facebook finally commit to stop doing that, with Twitter lagging even further behind.

Why should this discussion have been censored in the first place? At the time, it was asserted that "experts" disproved it, so further discussion was just racist misinformation. Now we're back to accepting the very realistic possibility that, yes, it did leak out of a lab.

Trust the "experts", though, amirite? They know best! In fact, they know best to such a large extent that we aren't allowed to publicly disagree with them anymore. Definitely the hallmark of a free country.

SCIENCE!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

BCR, it seems that you don't believe that the lab leak theory was shut down by the left in 2020?

People were banned from Twitter for discussing it.

The Twitter anti-misinformation sidebar mentioned that "experts have determined that COVID-19's origins were not from a lab".

The mainstream media would not accept this as a possibility, and only brought up the lab leak theory to discuss how racist or absurd it was.

Do you not remember any of this?

---

I’m actually a person who reads the comments. While it’s usually a bad idea to shut down discussion, if you read the comments after every lab leak tweet, they were entirely loons who would inevitably use an occasional serious tweet to sidetrack it into discussions about shadowy control groups and conspiracy theory.

You could read a thousand fucking comments without a single serious person chiming in. They did nothing to further discourse.

I imagine companies get nervous when that’s the case. Not saying it’s not ideological for some, but when they are a breeding ground for misinformation, they have to start getting worried about liability when the noise ratio of loons to real discourse is 99-1.

It isn’t discussion. It’s not debate. It’s like this place is now. You’re the only conservative who actually has a discussion.

If this virus happened pre-Trump, it would have been me and you discussing shit like we did 10 years ago. I was always advocating for taxing the fat pre-Obamacare through higher health care premiums. I saw obesity as the largest public health crisis and the driver of cost.

You were discussing how you could be healthy despite being moderately overweight. You didn’t like soda policy if they lowered it from 90oz down to 44oz. If Michelle Obama tried to make lunches healthier, the GOP classified pizza as a vegetable.

I’ve be winning that discussion with this virus.

But then you could point out that much of our ability to make a vaccine quickly was driven by research from scientists that came from countries that had social medicine, to work here, and that all that private research money allowed us to arrive at a vaccine much quicker. I’m not sure that’s accurate, but I recall at least here that many of the early MRNA researchers were like Euros who came here to study and work.

It made me rethink the subject of socialized medicine.

That’s what debate and thinking people do. Always reevaluate with new information

That’s when it wasn’t a cult/conspiracy theory world.

Now it’s Mike Dewine is a socialist globalist. Khalawat makes a post and gets called faggot three times for trying to start an actual discussion. Bart did also when he’d try to.

No why he’s wrong if you’re going to call him a faggot. Just that he’s a faggot, because the person calling him that couldn’t read a study to save his life. He’s a mong.

Granny rolls in to throw her tantrum with nothing added to the conversation because she’s insane. V12 will try to insert his lunacy into the thread.

These people are your party now. They are the majority. These aren’t people who have the ability to have a discussion with. Twitter and the lab leak story was much the same. More actually. There was no you. You might be the guy making the tweet followed by a thousand comments from them. What does that add?

I just watched a video that was interesting in the other thread. You seem ready to discuss. Grandma tells him to stfu shill. This is who we are supposed to have a discussion with? These are morons and you know it

Masks, lockdowns, they do nothing.

Age adjusted mortality - California vs Florida



/thread