2+2 abandoning long-used vBulletin software on March 30, and switching to "Vanilla" forum software which everyone hates

Personally I would hate operating a forum on a cloud service. I totally think that's more the solution for large businesses which need a forum, or for non-technical people who want a forum but don't understand how to set one up.

I was too busy playing poker during the NWP and DD days to get involved with running the forum from the technical side. I never offered to help Micon do it at NWP, and then the Lithuanians took over that task when Pokernews bought it. Then when we moved to DD, we brought lakingsfan12 into the mix, when in reality I could have just taken that role myself. I just didn't feel like going through the learning curve regarding setting up, modifying, and maintaining forums. So I didn't. Big mistake.

Then I left DD, and 5 months passed. A radio show listener and sometimes-DD poster (who doesn't post here anymore) was trying to get me to start my own forum. He tried to sweeten this offer by saying he would do all the technical work, and host it himself. I almost accepted this offer, but then started getting hesitant as to whether or not I wanted a partner in this whole thing. While I was thinking about it, the guy got insulted that I didn't respond to him fast enough, and he rescinded the offer. At that point, I made my decision. I learned all about vBulletin, and got to work setting up PFA.

And here we are.

That was the correct decision. It is very important to me to be able to be in full control of the software and its functionality. I can add or remove features. I can change what I want. I can even insert my own additional security measures, if desired (and I have, at times). That's why this forum has features you don't see on other vBulletin systems.

I would think 2+2 would also want such control, but perhaps not. Or perhaps they don't realize how much they need it.

Due to the outrage, they are delaying the switchover by 1-2 weeks: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...poned-1765575/

A mod there named gregorio (who isn't part of the switchover effort) had some free time, and created a Vanilla template which semi-looks-like the existing 2+2.

So maybe it won't be as awful as it appears on the surface. I still think Mason will be wasting needless $ on this setup on a monthly basis, but that's up to him. If it at least can look and function like existing 2+2, it won't be that bad. But that's a big "if".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Due to the outrage, they are delaying the switchover by 1-2 weeks: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...poned-1765575/

A mod there named gregorio (who isn't part of the switchover effort) had some free time, and created a Vanilla template which semi-looks-like the existing 2+2.

So maybe it won't be as awful as it appears on the surface. I still think Mason will be wasting needless $ on this setup on a monthly basis, but that's up to him. If it at least can look and function like existing 2+2, it won't be that bad. But that's a big "if".

---

no,..it's awful and they will lose posters and visitors because of it.

sure you can try and motor though it, and maybe get use to it, but navigation sucks and it reads like a book or pad.

it's just a freestyle feel......zero containment

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mulva

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Due to the outrage, they are delaying the switchover by 1-2 weeks: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...poned-1765575/

A mod there named gregorio (who isn't part of the switchover effort) had some free time, and created a Vanilla template which semi-looks-like the existing 2+2.

So maybe it won't be as awful as it appears on the surface. I still think Mason will be wasting needless $ on this setup on a monthly basis, but that's up to him. If it at least can look and function like existing 2+2, it won't be that bad. But that's a big "if".

---

no,..it's awful and they will lose posters and visitors because of it.

sure you can try and motor though it, and maybe get use to it, but navigation sucks and it reads like a book or pad.

it's just a freestyle feel......zero containment

---

I really think my theory above is likely correct.

Mason was likely rightfully frustrated that they were still paying a fortune for a high-end VPS when their traffic no longer justifies it.

So Mason probably instructed them to get a cheaper VPS, and the tech team came back saying, "Uh, bad news boss. vBulletin 4 is no longer maintained, and it doesn't even support the new PHP, which all the new VPS come with."

Then they told him vBulletin 5 was too hard to customize, and some genius decided to just go with Vanilla, and told him that it will still save him money as compared to now -- ignoring the fact that a vB 5 solution would save them even MORE money and be a much better interface.

2+2 being hosted on a cloud forum service just seems like such the wrong solution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mulva

no,..it's awful and they will lose posters and visitors because of it.

sure you can try and motor though it, and maybe get use to it, but navigation sucks and it reads like a book or pad.

it's just a freestyle feel......zero containment

---

I really think my theory above is likely correct.

Mason was likely rightfully frustrated that they were still paying a fortune for a high-end VPS when their traffic no longer justifies it.

So Mason probably instructed them to get a cheaper VPS, and the tech team came back saying, "Uh, bad news boss. vBulletin 4 is no longer maintained, and it doesn't even support the new PHP, which all the new VPS come with."

Then they told him vBulletin 5 was too hard to customize, and some genius decided to just go with Vanilla, and told him that it will still save him money as compared to now -- ignoring the fact that a vB 5 solution would save them even MORE money and be a much better interface.

2+2 being hosted on a cloud forum service just seems like such the wrong solution.

---

pretty sure i can still get hosting for $1.oo a month from my guy in india...who buys shared server space from a rack in chicago

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mulva

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I really think my theory above is likely correct.

Mason was likely rightfully frustrated that they were still paying a fortune for a high-end VPS when their traffic no longer justifies it.

So Mason probably instructed them to get a cheaper VPS, and the tech team came back saying, "Uh, bad news boss. vBulletin 4 is no longer maintained, and it doesn't even support the new PHP, which all the new VPS come with."

Then they told him vBulletin 5 was too hard to customize, and some genius decided to just go with Vanilla, and told him that it will still save him money as compared to now -- ignoring the fact that a vB 5 solution would save them even MORE money and be a much better interface.

2+2 being hosted on a cloud forum service just seems like such the wrong solution.

---

pretty sure i can still get hosting for $1.oo a month from my guy in india...who buys shared server space from a rack in chicago

---

But that won't work for a site like 2+2. Wouldn't even work for this site. Those super-cheap hosting deals are for people who run personal or small business webpages. Any site with consistent traffic wouldn't work with those shared hosting plans. You also need shell access, which those plans don't provide.

If you remember, I even upgraded the PFA server last year, so the big threads ilke the Trump one don't hang when you attempt to load them. That's why the Trump thread loads quickly these days, where for a few years it took like 30 seconds when you first clicked on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mulva

pretty sure i can still get hosting for $1.oo a month from my guy in india...who buys shared server space from a rack in chicago

---

But that won't work for a site like 2+2. Wouldn't even work for this site. Those super-cheap hosting deals are for people who run personal or small business webpages. Any site with consistent traffic wouldn't work with those shared hosting plans. You also need shell access, which those plans don't provide.

If you remember, I even upgraded the PFA server last year, so the big threads ilke the Trump one don't hang when you attempt to load them. That's why the Trump thread loads quickly these days, where for a few years it took like 30 seconds when you first clicked on it.

---

i know..i jus wanted to say it..really makes u think how much go daddy makes charging their obscene monthly amount for shared space

Wasn't there an issue at Donkdown where during a failed upgrade to D.D 2.0 it lost a chunk of forum history? Or was that Skatz?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Due to the outrage, they are delaying the switchover by 1-2 weeks: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...poned-1765575/

A mod there named gregorio (who isn't part of the switchover effort) had some free time, and created a Vanilla template which semi-looks-like the existing 2+2.

So maybe it won't be as awful as it appears on the surface. I still think Mason will be wasting needless $ on this setup on a monthly basis, but that's up to him. If it at least can look and function like existing 2+2, it won't be that bad. But that's a big "if".

---

Why fix something that isn't broken. At least thats my feeling.

I think Druff is correct that certain changes will piss off users, that are not tech savvy, & make them stop visiting.

I've stopped visiting some sites, sites that I used to visit at least weekly & some daily, because they changed & couldn't navigate them the way I had in the past. I just couldn't easily find what I was looking for

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY75dw64sqI

so I left.

I'm going thru that again with Expedia right now.

Great show Druff! A few comments re: the discussion of 2+2 moving over to Vanilla Forums:

- The "upgrade trap" is why I recommend not customizing software by hacking at it, but rather by using approved extension mechanisms like plugins, etc. Being trapped on an obsolete platform generally means that company run website using insecure, inefficient stacks exactly because the cost of upgrading is so painful

- Vanilla Forums is a modern, flexible forum system. Other modern platforms are Discourse, Flarum, vBulletin 5, Invision, etc.

- Vanilla Forums can look however you want them to, the theming is incredibly flexible. You could make it look exactly like vBulletin if you wanted. Here's an example of a poker-related Vanilla Forums site: http://www.crushlivepoker.com/forums...egy-discussion

- Vanilla Forums is not just a cloud hosted platform. You can self-host it, and do whatever you want with it, just like you can with vBulletin or Invision. vBulletin also offers similar cloud hosting options https://docs.vanillaforums.com/devel.../self-hosting/

- The OSS version of Vanilla Forums is 100% free. https://vanillaforums.com/en/software/ & https://open.vanillaforums.com/

- Tradereski is correct that you can't just downgrade the version of PHP that you run on a new host, because the underlying OS distribution doesn't support it

- PHP 5.6 end of life happened back in December, 2018; PHP 7.3 is the supported platform, and it's significantly improved (and much faster)

- End of Life = "A release that is no longer supported. Users of this release should upgrade as soon as possible, as they may be exposed to unpatched security vulnerabilities." https://www.php.net/supported-versions.php

- Rackspace (the hosting used by 2+2) is infamous for overcharging corporate clients "because no one ever got fired for choosing rackspace". There are so many better alternatives out there

Hey Khalwat!

Your last show was excellent.

I’ve made some comments in the past - now I’m obliged to compliment you too.

Hopefully you’re back soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sanlmar

Hey Khalwat!

Your last show was excellent.

I’ve made some comments in the past - now I’m obliged to compliment you too.

Hopefully you’re back soon.

---

Thanks man! Glad you enjoyed it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by khalwat

Great show Druff! A few comments re: the discussion of 2+2 moving over to Vanilla Forums:

- The "upgrade trap" is why I recommend not customizing software by hacking at it, but rather by using approved extension mechanisms like plugins, etc. Being trapped on an obsolete platform generally means that company run website using insecure, inefficient stacks exactly because the cost of upgrading is so painful

- Vanilla Forums is a modern, flexible forum system. Other modern platforms are Discourse, Flarum, vBulletin 5, Invision, etc.

- Vanilla Forums can look however you want them to, the theming is incredibly flexible. You could make it look exactly like vBulletin if you wanted. Here's an example of a poker-related Vanilla Forums site: http://www.crushlivepoker.com/forums...egy-discussion

- Vanilla Forums is not just a cloud hosted platform. You can self-host it, and do whatever you want with it, just like you can with vBulletin or Invision. vBulletin also offers similar cloud hosting options https://docs.vanillaforums.com/devel.../self-hosting/

- The OSS version of Vanilla Forums is 100% free. https://vanillaforums.com/en/software/ & https://open.vanillaforums.com/

- Tradereski is correct that you can't just downgrade the version of PHP that you run on a new host, because the underlying OS distribution doesn't support it

- PHP 5.6 end of life happened back in December, 2018; PHP 7.3 is the supported platform, and it's significantly improved (and much faster)

- End of Life = "A release that is no longer supported. Users of this release should upgrade as soon as possible, as they may be exposed to unpatched security vulnerabilities." https://www.php.net/supported-versions.php

- Rackspace (the hosting used by 2+2) is infamous for overcharging corporate clients "because no one ever got fired for choosing rackspace". There are so many better alternatives out there

---

I discussed all this via text with khalwat today (and moved the above 3 posts from the radio thread, so all of this discussion is in one place).

I learned today from khalwat that Vanilla is actually a FREE solution if you self-host! Why didn't I know this? Because they aren't at all clear about this on their homepage, since they clearly want you on their expensive cloud solution. To vBulletin's credit, they make it very clear that you have two options -- cloud or local (though their local solution is a one-time expense, whereas Vanilla's is free).

Strangely, Mason did NOT dispute that they're going to an expensive cloud solution, so perhaps they don't realize it either!

I went down the "need to downgrade PHP" route in early 2019, and found that it was either impossible or very difficult, and ultimately elected to just go with a later PHP 5 and take the lesser of the two headaches. It's still not clear to me if downgrading PHP to one not supported by the OS is impossible or just very difficult and not recommended.

khalwat is also correct that, by doing custom modifications to software like I have here (and what 2+2 did), you do end up in an "upgrade trap", where it is very difficult to upgrade versions, and sometimes you're stuck with obsolete/vulnerable software. However, I've always felt it's tradeoff and you need to assess your needs and see what solution is right for you. It's important for me to be able to modify vBulletin as I see fit, so I decided to marry myself to vBulletin 4 for many years, until that no longer becomes practical. For now, it's still practical.
Yes, PHP 5.6 (which I use) is 2x as slow as PHP 7.3, but as you see, this site runs fast enough, and my hosting fees aren't terribly expensive, so I don't mind that.

khalwat showed me a Vanilla site he manages, and it looks pretty good. So a Vanilla forum doesn't need to look like garbage -- it's all how you customize it. He also said 2+2 could modify the template enough to where it would look just like old 2+2. But... why? Instead of changing to Vanilla and making it look like vBulletin, why not just go with vBulletin?

I still feel they would be better off going with vBulletin 5 or Invision, since that's the type of interface their users have been long used to, and you don't want to hit them with changes, or some might leave.

Hope to hear khalwat back on radio soon!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

But... why? Instead of changing to Vanilla and making it look like vBulletin, why not just go with vBulletin?

I still feel they would be better off going with vBulletin 5 or Invision, since that's the type of interface their users have been long used to, and you don't want to hit them with changes, or some might leave.

Hope to hear khalwat back on radio soon!

---

Yeah I have no good answers to why they decided to switch to Vanilla. One would think that self-hosted vBulletin 5 would be a more straightforward upgrade path, but I'm not aware of their requirements or technical discussions.

All I can say is that Vanilla is quite a nice platform -- as are many others -- but it's up to you how good it does or doesn't look & function.

I think any change, people will complain about, even change for the better. But yeah change for the worse would result in excoriation. Let's hope they don't screw the pooch too badly on the transition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by khalwat

Great show Druff! A few comments re: the discussion of 2+2 moving over to Vanilla Forums:

- The "upgrade trap" is why I recommend not customizing software by hacking at it, but rather by using approved extension mechanisms like plugins, etc. Being trapped on an obsolete platform generally means that company run website using insecure, inefficient stacks exactly because the cost of upgrading is so painful

- Vanilla Forums is a modern, flexible forum system. Other modern platforms are Discourse, Flarum, vBulletin 5, Invision, etc.

- Vanilla Forums can look however you want them to, the theming is incredibly flexible. You could make it look exactly like vBulletin if you wanted. Here's an example of a poker-related Vanilla Forums site: http://www.crushlivepoker.com/forums...egy-discussion

- Vanilla Forums is not just a cloud hosted platform. You can self-host it, and do whatever you want with it, just like you can with vBulletin or Invision. vBulletin also offers similar cloud hosting options https://docs.vanillaforums.com/devel.../self-hosting/

- The OSS version of Vanilla Forums is 100% free. https://vanillaforums.com/en/software/ & https://open.vanillaforums.com/

- Tradereski is correct that you can't just downgrade the version of PHP that you run on a new host, because the underlying OS distribution doesn't support it

- PHP 5.6 end of life happened back in December, 2018; PHP 7.3 is the supported platform, and it's significantly improved (and much faster)

- End of Life = "A release that is no longer supported. Users of this release should upgrade as soon as possible, as they may be exposed to unpatched security vulnerabilities." https://www.php.net/supported-versions.php

- Rackspace (the hosting used by 2+2) is infamous for overcharging corporate clients "because no one ever got fired for choosing rackspace". There are so many better alternatives out there

---

I discussed all this via text with khalwat today (and moved the above 3 posts from the radio thread, so all of this discussion is in one place).

I learned today from khalwat that Vanilla is actually a FREE solution if you self-host! Why didn't I know this? Because they aren't at all clear about this on their homepage, since they clearly want you on their expensive cloud solution. To vBulletin's credit, they make it very clear that you have two options -- cloud or local (though their local solution is a one-time expense, whereas Vanilla's is free).

Strangely, Mason did NOT dispute that they're going to an expensive cloud solution, so perhaps they don't realize it either!

I went down the "need to downgrade PHP" route in early 2019, and found that it was either impossible or very difficult, and ultimately elected to just go with a later PHP 5 and take the lesser of the two headaches. It's still not clear to me if downgrading PHP to one not supported by the OS is impossible or just very difficult and not recommended.

khalwat is also correct that, by doing custom modifications to software like I have here (and what 2+2 did), you do end up in an "upgrade trap", where it is very difficult to upgrade versions, and sometimes you're stuck with obsolete/vulnerable software. However, I've always felt it's tradeoff and you need to assess your needs and see what solution is right for you. It's important for me to be able to modify vBulletin as I see fit, so I decided to marry myself to vBulletin 4 for many years, until that no longer becomes practical. For now, it's still practical.
Yes, PHP 5.6 (which I use) is 2x as slow as PHP 7.3, but as you see, this site runs fast enough, and my hosting fees aren't terribly expensive, so I don't mind that.

khalwat showed me a Vanilla site he manages, and it looks pretty good. So a Vanilla forum doesn't need to look like garbage -- it's all how you customize it. He also said 2+2 could modify the template enough to where it would look just like old 2+2. But... why? Instead of changing to Vanilla and making it look like vBulletin, why not just go with vBulletin?

I still feel they would be better off going with vBulletin 5 or Invision, since that's the type of interface their users have been long used to, and you don't want to hit them with changes, or some might leave.

Hope to hear khalwat back on radio soon!

---

Everybody should bookmark this post.

This is probably as close as we'll ever get to Druff admitting he may have been slightly misinformed & may not be quite 100% correct.

As for the bolded part, maybe he has others handle this & doesn't really fully understand & doesn't feel like spouting off on things he doesn't 100% know & would rather just trust the people he's put in charge of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

I went down the "need to downgrade PHP" route in early 2019, and found that it was either impossible or very difficult, and ultimately elected to just go with a later PHP 5 and take the lesser of the two headaches. It's still not clear to me if downgrading PHP to one not supported by the OS is impossible or just very difficult and not recommended.

---

So with software, nothing is impossible; it's a matter of time and money. So probably the right way I should have phrased it would be that it'd be "impractical" to do; but even that doesn't feel strong enough.

You end up going down a nightmare of a rabbit hole, filled with monkey patch after monkey patch, all attempting to keep the original monkey patch alive and working.

This results in a teetering, unwieldy structure that'd make Dr. Seuss proud.

Much better is to update quickly, and update often. Fix problems while they are small and few in number, don't wait until they are huge and many. And keep the platform solid & secure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

khalwat is also correct that, by doing custom modifications to software like I have here (and what 2+2 did), you do end up in an "upgrade trap", where it is very difficult to upgrade versions, and sometimes you're stuck with obsolete/vulnerable software. However, I've always felt it's tradeoff and you need to assess your needs and see what solution is right for you. It's important for me to be able to modify vBulletin as I see fit, so I decided to marry myself to vBulletin 4 for many years, until that no longer becomes practical. For now, it's still practical.

---

Yeah I get it. It's not worth the effort for you to redo all the things, which is perfectly fair.

Whenever that time does come, though, and you end up redoing all the things... I'd suggest adopting a policy of modifying things only via existing documented mechanisms (plugins, hooks, services, whatever) and then doing lots of small updates on a regular basis, rather than pushing things off to one, daunting, scary, monolithic update.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Yes, PHP 5.6 (which I use) is 2x as slow as PHP 7.3, but as you see, this site runs fast enough, and my hosting fees aren't terribly expensive, so I don't mind that.

---

For you this doesn't matter, but speaking generally, you also get locked in the other way: new, modern stuff won't run on the old version of PHP that you have.

You can install php 5.6 on, for example, the current supported version of Ubuntu; I just tried it - took about 5 mins to google how and install it.

If your hosting provider dicatates which version(s) of php you must use, then you're probably using the wrong provider.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belly Buster

You can install php 5.6 on, for example, the current supported version of Ubuntu; I just tried it - took about 5 mins to google how and install it.

If your hosting provider dicatates which version(s) of php you must use, then you're probably using the wrong provider.

---

Most hosting providers come with PHP already installed. They don't tend to mandate that you can't downgrade it, but when I looked into how to downgrade to the version I needed (I think 5.3), it wasn't trivial.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belly Buster

You can install php 5.6 on, for example, the current supported version of Ubuntu; I just tried it - took about 5 mins to google how and install it.

If your hosting provider dicatates which version(s) of php you must use, then you're probably using the wrong provider.

---

PHP 5.6, despite being EOL'd, can be installed without too much pain -- but if you start going back further to, say, 5.3 it's still doable, but it gets less and less fun. Anything is possible with software.

But at some point it makes sense to upgrade your application rather than downgrading your stack.