By the time this illegal law is resolved, you will be long gone old man.Quote:
Originally Posted by SixToedPete
So long old friend.
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By the time this illegal law is resolved, you will be long gone old man.Quote:
Originally Posted by SixToedPete
So long old friend.
I joked about it before, but I really do believe that the ruling was a premeditated plan by the GOP. By allowing the "tax" to stand they have made it so that the only way to get rid of the healthcare law is full repeal by congress. This paves the way for a sweep by Romney and the Republican senate candidates. I need to check and see if Jesse Ventura has issued a statement on it since he jumps at conspiracy theories.Quote:
Originally Posted by SixToedPete
Quote:
Originally Posted by shortbuspokerI joked about it before, but I really do believe that the ruling was a premeditated plan by the GOP. By allowing the "tax" to stand they have made it so that the only way to get rid of the healthcare law is full repeal by congress. This paves the way for a sweep by Romney and the Republican senate candidates. I need to check and see if Jesse Ventura has issued a statement on it since he jumps at conspiracy theories.Quote:
Originally Posted by SixToedPete
It was the first thing I thought of when it was upheld. Hardly even a conspiracy theory. Really, legally, this type of stuff has been upheld historically, so all it really takes is a wink and a nod from the right people to tell Roberts to just go ahead and follow the law on the books. Rarely can you get lucky like the Republicans did and have a situation where you don't really have to play partisan. You can actually do the right and politically beneficial thing at the same time. They ran good on this one.
I may be your Daddy, but I'm not your friend son.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiboflavinBy the time this illegal law is resolved, you will be long gone old man.Quote:
Originally Posted by SixToedPete
So long old friend.
Say hi to your Mom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SixToedPete
Quote:
after Mitt Romney defeats Obama in November and the GOP keeps majority in the House while taking over the Senate, Obamacare will be repealed.
http://vegannaturopath.files.wordpre...11/11/iron.jpg
I hope it works out that Obama is defeated and the lefties are jettisoned from the senate. I have my doubts though, do not underestimate the number of people who have been trained to have government take care of them. Between them, the young people who have been indoctrinated through the education system, the limousine liberals and the minorities who will vote Obama no matter what, it is going to be a close race.Quote:
Originally Posted by BCRQuote:
Originally Posted by shortbuspoker
It was the first thing I thought of when it was upheld. Hardly even a conspiracy theory. Really, legally, this type of stuff has been upheld historically, so all it really takes is a wink and a nod from the right people to tell Roberts to just go ahead and follow the law on the books. Rarely can you get lucky like the Republicans did and have a situation where you don't really have to play partisan. You can actually do the right and politically beneficial thing at the same time. They ran good on this one.
**If you read this whole rant, you will quickly realize that it is a little less lib partial as you might think.**Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergie72
I think you are wrong there Fergie. I think WWII and the space progam which both created trillions in future profits for private US corporations/contractors was pretty successful.....along with reaching its desired goal ahead of schedule were just a couple of examples of not only working but working efficiently. Also the Scandanavian countries who enjoy free and excellent health care would argue your claims. But only a moron would engage in that argument with you as the government isn't running anything in the healthcare field as it is in those Scananavian countries...(who incidentally would go to war before they allowed their health care to be changed to ours)......our government is providing regulations similar to the auto insurance industry. The Scandanavian system, which is actually government run (unlike Obamacare) enjoys an approval rating in the 80+% range in those countries. These are people that actually have EXPERIENCED that type of care there, unlike Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. Its also amusing to listen to to completely different types of successful European medical systems being atatcked as if they are all one unit of socialized medicine. Even though they are all very very different systems with only one thing in common...that ther isn't a single country you would raise your family in that doesn't have socialized or a government run health system. Not one. And if you care about saving money, you might realize our current system is per person the absolute worst in cost and amongst civilized countries worst in coverage. We are the only modern country where not only can you go bankrupt due to a health condition of a family member out of your control...you are LIKELY to. And medical bankruptcy is the number one cause of bankruptcy. Nevermind that we are last in preventitive care and are behind countries such as Poland in infant mortality rate....it is not much of a stretch to argue that our country in fact DOESN'T have the best care for its general population (not just the very rich) and with the spiralling costs that increase yearly whethere Obamacare got passed or not, its not like we are tinkering with a good system here. The ability to service the Shieks of Saudi Arabia and Heads of State of some African country with the best the free market has to offer is not going away because of this or any bill. I am more concerned about whether we are the best system for the average person and that answer is an overwhelming resounding "no" by any person that has ever studied our system no matter how conservative. It's broken due to cost alone and unless we start euthanizing poor people, it is only going to get worse.
How dumb do you have to be to not only believe this opinion but espouse it on the internet? I mean Dandruff is a conservative for instance. He probably detests the bill, as do I. But he is smart enough to know this isn't a take over of government health care. They aren't running the health care system. Its not close. Step one would be the United Kingdom, where a private system competes with a public system. Step two would be a single payer system, once again run by private industry with the government picking up the tab. Step three towards socialized medicine would be.....actual socialized medicine like it is in most civilized country where the doctor is an actual government worker.
Now I am not arguing which method is better. They all work in providing high quality health care. The countries using the above methods live longer and are less expensive per person. Now we could argue all day but the fact is these plans are comparable once you factor in the value of cost. I for one prefer the British method, but they all have their flaws. And yes, the UNites States obviously has HUGE flaws considering the costs rise 20% every year no matter what party is in charge. The Dems claim that reining in insurance companies profit and wasteful emergency room spending will lower costs. The CBO (Congressional Budget Office) agrees that it will cut costs. There is ZERO disagreement that it will cut costs PER PERSON as many devastating and expensive illnesses will be prevented with a simple checkup. Along with the fact that many young people will join the ranks of the insured with little costs of their own, but will add to the kitty. These new and profitable customers are the reason the big insurance companies signed off on this deal and it passed congress. It is important for conservative to remember that their free market heroes such as Big Pharm, Hospital Chains. Most Doctors (AMA for example) and big insurance SUPPORTED this goddamn bill. The only people complaining are the people that don't understand the bill or simply hate giving away ANYTHING to the poor even if it determines their life or death. These are the exact same people that would let people starve to death in the streets if it was their option. Now there are benefits to society both ways, just a different perspective.
There are so many ways to argue the various points of this bill I can't even start....but one of the dumbest is calling it a government takeover. When it isn't even close. It is a start, but it would be the same as Democrats crying and claiming that Abortion was made illegal because partial birth abortions were outlawed. it just isn't accurate and it displays a level of intelligence that has no place in a serious or even casual political discussion. Is Obamacare the start of socialized or government controlled healthcare. Yes. In the same way that a partial birth abortion ban is a "start" to outlawing abortion. The thing is though....abortion is not going to get banned and the US will never fully copy European style healthcare systems. We are a different culture. We like the idea of punishing those less fortunate (not less hard working less fortunate like someone who works 2 low paying jobs and gets cancer) for achieving less than the desired norm. This aspect of our society has its advantages and disadvantages, and it is a damn shame that we cannot look at these things scientifically and accurately. Both sides just spout their ridiculous claims and cater to the low IQ portion of their base to stay in power. I don't have a solution, but I do know that most opinions on the health care law, welfare and many other conservative hot button issues....are just plain poorly reasoned....and severly underinformed. 95% of the people who claim welfare is the number one pronle with our country cannot name a single federal government agency that provides said "welfare". People that complain the loudest about foodstamps often do so in a conservative state and do not realize that it is their red state that provides the foodstamps, not the federal government. Hilarious watching dimwits blame Obama for excess foodstamp spending. When he has zero control over your program. Congress has more control in matching funds. You want to know why foodstamps will never go away? Its not a love of handouts by the Dems or a weakness by the "RINO's"....its two things 1) Foodstamps cuts crime. It is a fucking fact. Starving people commit crimes. Everytime. And crime prevention, prosecution, control, sentencing, incarceration, rehabilitation and victimization is VERY VERY VERY expensive, and that is just for the government. Private security costs destroy retails profit margin. Particularly grocers and other food retailers which leads me to the most important reason food stamps will never go away: Food lobbyists. Bribe both sides. Insure that foodstamp program expands every year.
If you can follow my reasoning in the reason we have a healthy foodstamp program and likely always will, you may understand why I hate this health care bill so much. SUper powerful, super profitable, Industry led special interest lobbyists control our government. And nearly everytime politics is debated and one side attacks the other....without mentioning this fact, the real problem in our country is ignored and useless, ignorant political discussion ensues.
Quit being a victim of the smokescreen, stop espousing your sides talking points and listen to the point the other side is trying to make. As for the health care bill. Give it a chance. It might just work. It works for other countries. I think it will fail as a cost control because of corporate freebies for big industry. To be fair I believe that is why all our policies fail. People just don't understand why supporting large corporations unfairly with tax breaks destroys the middle class but particularly destroys the productivity of small business. Small business has to compete unfairly with a less efficient but well connected and well lobbied...evil machine, a conglomerate of large industry. And the Democrats are a huge part of that, certainly more pathetic than the Republicans, because the Dems are the ones that are the ones that were supposed to protect the little guy and the small business. They sold us down the river and I believe they did the same with this health care bill. They should have insisted on single payer and ran the goddamn insurance companies out of business. Imagine an entire industry that cures no patients, whose best interest is to NOT provide coverage, soaking up over 20% of the medical nudget and at the same time destroying out local free market system of healthcare and doctor/patient choice. Destroying the ability for small medical companies to compete or even have research on their product happen.
LOL at the ridiculous argument that this healthcare plan puts the government between you and your doctor. I wish it would. It is a whole lot better than a middle manager at an insurance company being between you and your doctor, only with an incentive to deny you coverage. That IS the current reality and it would be impossible to argue otherwise. Don't be an idiot and parrot that talking point please. Because that IS the absolute dumbest, most indefensible argument in politics right now. Especially since there is to date, no socialized medicine in this country. Only the same type of guidelines we have for our Life,Auto and property insurance companies. Because only in this country do you do more preventive care for your home and auto than you do for your body....and the government paying for things (ie the people) would change that.
We will evolve as a society once we transition from sick care to health care....and stop running a sick sick lotto system where you go bankrupt when you have cancer.....because only 10% of the population can afford the 10% co-pay for cancer treatment, and a system designed to protect 10% of the population is not a democratic system. Which we don't have either at this time.
Holy limousine liberal rants Batman!Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMBLE-BOT**If you read this whole rant, you will quickly realize that it is a little less lib partial as you might think.**Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergie72
I think you are wrong there Fergie. I think WWII and the space progam which both created trillions in future profits for private US corporations/contractors was pretty successful.....along with reaching its desired goal ahead of schedule were just a couple of examples of not only working but working efficiently. Also the Scandanavian countries who enjoy free and excellent health care would argue your claims. But only a moron would engage in that argument with you as the government isn't running anything in the healthcare field as it is in those Scananavian countries...(who incidentally would go to war before they allowed their health care to be changed to ours)......our government is providing regulations similar to the auto insurance industry. The Scandanavian system, which is actually government run (unlike Obamacare) enjoys an approval rating in the 80+% range in those countries. These are people that actually have EXPERIENCED that type of care there, unlike Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. Its also amusing to listen to to completely different types of successful European medical systems being atatcked as if they are all one unit of socialized medicine. Even though they are all very very different systems with only one thing in common...that ther isn't a single country you would raise your family in that doesn't have socialized or a government run health system. Not one. And if you care about saving money, you might realize our current system is per person the absolute worst in cost and amongst civilized countries worst in coverage. We are the only modern country where not only can you go bankrupt due to a health condition of a family member out of your control...you are LIKELY to. And medical bankruptcy is the number one cause of bankruptcy. Nevermind that we are last in preventitive care and are behind countries such as Poland in infant mortality rate....it is not much of a stretch to argue that our country in fact DOESN'T have the best care for its general population (not just the very rich) and with the spiralling costs that increase yearly whethere Obamacare got passed or not, its not like we are tinkering with a good system here. The ability to service the Shieks of Saudi Arabia and Heads of State of some African country with the best the free market has to offer is not going away because of this or any bill. I am more concerned about whether we are the best system for the average person and that answer is an overwhelming resounding "no" by any person that has ever studied our system no matter how conservative. It's broken due to cost alone and unless we start euthanizing poor people, it is only going to get worse.
How dumb do you have to be to not only believe this opinion but espouse it on the internet? I mean Dandruff is a conservative for instance. He probably detests the bill, as do I. But he is smart enough to know this isn't a take over of government health care. They aren't running the health care system. Its not close. Step one would be the United Kingdom, where a private system competes with a public system. Step two would be a single payer system, once again run by private industry with the government picking up the tab. Step three towards socialized medicine would be.....actual socialized medicine like it is in most civilized country where the doctor is an actual government worker.
Now I am not arguing which method is better. They all work in providing high quality health care. The countries using the above methods live longer and are less expensive per person. Now we could argue all day but the fact is these plans are comparable once you factor in the value of cost. I for one prefer the British method, but they all have their flaws. And yes, the UNites States obviously has HUGE flaws considering the costs rise 20% every year no matter what party is in charge. The Dems claim that reining in insurance companies profit and wasteful emergency room spending will lower costs. The CBO (Congressional Budget Office) agrees that it will cut costs. There is ZERO disagreement that it will cut costs PER PERSON as many devastating and expensive illnesses will be prevented with a simple checkup. Along with the fact that many young people will join the ranks of the insured with little costs of their own, but will add to the kitty. These new and profitable customers are the reason the big insurance companies signed off on this deal and it passed congress. It is important for conservative to remember that their free market heroes such as Big Pharm, Hospital Chains. Most Doctors (AMA for example) and big insurance SUPPORTED this goddamn bill. The only people complaining are the people that don't understand the bill or simply hate giving away ANYTHING to the poor even if it determines their life or death. These are the exact same people that would let people starve to death in the streets if it was their option. Now there are benefits to society both ways, just a different perspective.
There are so many ways to argue the various points of this bill I can't even start....but one of the dumbest is calling it a government takeover. When it isn't even close. It is a start, but it would be the same as Democrats crying and claiming that Abortion was made illegal because partial birth abortions were outlawed. it just isn't accurate and it displays a level of intelligence that has no place in a serious or even casual political discussion. Is Obamacare the start of socialized or government controlled healthcare. Yes. In the same way that a partial birth abortion ban is a "start" to outlawing abortion. The thing is though....abortion is not going to get banned and the US will never fully copy European style healthcare systems. We are a different culture. We like the idea of punishing those less fortunate (not less hard working less fortunate like someone who works 2 low paying jobs and gets cancer) for achieving less than the desired norm. This aspect of our society has its advantages and disadvantages, and it is a damn shame that we cannot look at these things scientifically and accurately. Both sides just spout their ridiculous claims and cater to the low IQ portion of their base to stay in power. I don't have a solution, but I do know that most opinions on the health care law, welfare and many other conservative hot button issues....are just plain poorly reasoned....and severly underinformed. 95% of the people who claim welfare is the number one pronle with our country cannot name a single federal government agency that provides said "welfare". People that complain the loudest about foodstamps often do so in a conservative state and do not realize that it is their red state that provides the foodstamps, not the federal government. Hilarious watching dimwits blame Obama for excess foodstamp spending. When he has zero control over your program. Congress has more control in matching funds. You want to know why foodstamps will never go away? Its not a love of handouts by the Dems or a weakness by the "RINO's"....its two things 1) Foodstamps cuts crime. It is a fucking fact. Starving people commit crimes. Everytime. And crime prevention, prosecution, control, sentencing, incarceration, rehabilitation and victimization is VERY VERY VERY expensive, and that is just for the government. Private security costs destroy retails profit margin. Particularly grocers and other food retailers which leads me to the most important reason food stamps will never go away: Food lobbyists. Bribe both sides. Insure that foodstamp program expands every year.
If you can follow my reasoning in the reason we have a healthy foodstamp program and likely always will, you may understand why I hate this health care bill so much. SUper powerful, super profitable, Industry led special interest lobbyists control our government. And nearly everytime politics is debated and one side attacks the other....without mentioning this fact, the real problem in our country is ignored and useless, ignorant political discussion ensues.
Quit being a victim of the smokescreen, stop espousing your sides talking points and listen to the point the other side is trying to make. As for the health care bill. Give it a chance. It might just work. It works for other countries. I think it will fail as a cost control because of corporate freebies for big industry. To be fair I believe that is why all our policies fail. People just don't understand why supporting large corporations unfairly with tax breaks destroys the middle class but particularly destroys the productivity of small business. Small business has to compete unfairly with a less efficient but well connected and well lobbied...evil machine, a conglomerate of large industry. And the Democrats are a huge part of that, certainly more pathetic than the Republicans, because the Dems are the ones that are the ones that were supposed to protect the little guy and the small business. They sold us down the river and I believe they did the same with this health care bill. They should have insisted on single payer and ran the goddamn insurance companies out of business. Imagine an entire industry that cures no patients, whose best interest is to NOT provide coverage, soaking up over 20% of the medical nudget and at the same time destroying out local free market system of healthcare and doctor/patient choice. Destroying the ability for small medical companies to compete or even have research on their product happen.
LOL at the ridiculous argument that this healthcare plan puts the government between you and your doctor. I wish it would. It is a whole lot better than a middle manager at an insurance company being between you and your doctor, only with an incentive to deny you coverage. That IS the current reality and it would be impossible to argue otherwise. Don't be an idiot and parrot that talking point please. Because that IS the absolute dumbest, most indefensible argument in politics right now. Especially since there is to date, no socialized medicine in this country. Only the same type of guidelines we have for our Life,Auto and property insurance companies. Because only in this country do you do more preventive care for your home and auto than you do for your body....and the government paying for things (ie the people) would change that.
We will evolve as a society once we transition from sick care to health care....and stop running a sick sick lotto system where you go bankrupt when you have cancer.....because only 10% of the population can afford the 10% co-pay for cancer treatment, and a system designed to protect 10% of the population is not a democratic system. Which we don't have either at this time.
If you think I am going to take the time to write a novel like response to this you are mistaken. I will just say that from what I have read from you in the past it does not surprise me in the least that this is how you feel.
You call me stupid for describing this as a government takeover and then concede that it is the START of a government takeover? Really? Argue semantics much?
The bottom line is we cannot afford this and it will crush our already fragile economy. What do you think is going to happen when the revenue is far less than expected? Let me tell you. Care will be rationed, it will just have to be. All of the sudden those death panels are not just a scare tactic by conservatives but in fact a reality.
Also, R&D money will dry up because the profit motive will not be as great. Studies have shown that 39,000 jobs in the medical device industry alone will be lost at a cost of 8 billion dollars to the economy.
This bill is a disaster.
Here is a link to an article describing issues with Sweden's health care system. Scandinavian health care isnt near as good as you make it out to be.
http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555...alth_Care.html
This is laughable. Do you have any idea what kind of super-majority you need to repeal a law! John Roberts just did what he was supposed to do, which is independently look at an issue in front of the court and make a ruling. Whether you agree with the ruling or not is a different matter, but to assume that he voted for this based on some Alex Jones Freemasons taking over the world conspiracy is silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by BCRQuote:
Originally Posted by shortbuspoker
It was the first thing I thought of when it was upheld. Hardly even a conspiracy theory. Really, legally, this type of stuff has been upheld historically, so all it really takes is a wink and a nod from the right people to tell Roberts to just go ahead and follow the law on the books. Rarely can you get lucky like the Republicans did and have a situation where you don't really have to play partisan. You can actually do the right and politically beneficial thing at the same time. They ran good on this one.
My guess is he looked at the absolute clusterfuck we'd have if all of the people who were already given health care were thrown off the rolls, and then the Congress we have in place had to do something about it. Even if you are idealogically opposed to the mandate, EVERY SCOTUS should have upheld the law for this reason. If the Repubs wanted to they could have nibbled around the edges and vastly improved this law over the past couple of years (the law as it stands is akin to having a foundation but no house), instead they have this all or nothing mentality that is turning them into the right-wing version of liberals "my way or the highway" "I'm taking my ball and going home... after I preach to you for 2-hours".
Obuma is a president for n-words and poor people imo. If you're looking for the government to give you handouts and "take care of you" then this is the guy for you. If you need or want the government to tell you when you can eat, piss, breathe and shit, then this is the guy for you.
If you believe in capitalism. If you believe in making your own future. Then you need to vote Romney here. The guy may not be the ideal candidate but Obuma needs to go.
Can anyone name one thing the guy has done to improve our country in 4 god damn years? Sure, the economy was shit when he arrived. Four years later its still shit....slowest recovery from a recession in HISTORY.
If you're a n-word or a poor person then by all means.....
This song is describes every conservative ITT perfectly, especially Fergie and Toad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3Gkg9kAxuY
Gamblebot hit it out of the park. All you right wingers can do to counter is quote some 3 or 4 word slogan you heard .on Fox, AM radio or a RNC talking point, the nerve of you guys I swear.
You do realize that Bush gave poor people a massive tax cut and introduced all sorts of tax credits... Obama hasn't lowered taxes on poor people. And as is my usual line in these cases: You do understand Congress, specifically the House of Representatives, is the Genesis of every tax bill, right? The prsident can only sign bills that go through congressQuote:
Originally Posted by Pooh
I see your song and raise you this video. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by FPS_Russia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGwtG8nVpUU&feature=related
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCRQuote:
Originally Posted by JUSTIFIEDhomicide
The problems lie more in that group that is the working poor, and how this will affect them, how they will pay for it, and now that they are going to be insured, how much more is that going to cost you. We've already been paying for everything for the true brokedicks and ghetto rats forever.
I think this is what I was saying.
I understand that the guy hasn't done shit for the country during his term. I also understand he's pushing his Obumacare through during, I don't know, maybe the worst recession in the last 20 yrs. The bill is just fabulous for the economy. Real huge incentive for small business owners to hire and expand their businesses. I'm a nothing nobody in small business. This bill doesn't really affect me personally. But who's going to pay for all this crap? Your grand kids? Your grand kids grand kids? It's absurd. The guy is the worst president ever. He's out of here. No way this guy gets a second term. When this bill got passed by Congress, what happened to all them Dems in their next election? This is a victory for the GOP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve-OYou do realize that Bush gave poor people a massive tax cut and introduced all sorts of tax credits... Obama hasn't lowered taxes on poor people. And as is my usual line in these cases: You do understand Congress, specifically the House of Representatives, is the Genesis of every tax bill, right? The prsident can only sign bills that go through congressQuote:
Originally Posted by Pooh
Well, there are 100 senators and it takes a 2/3 majority to repeal a law. So if we round up that is 67 votes. Right now there are 51 democrats, 47 republicans, and 2 independents(who vote with the democratic majority a large amount of the time. This fall there will be 10 gop seats, the dems will have 21, and the 2 independents will be up for vote. It is not a stretch given the last batch of election for the republicans to keep their 10 and take the needed 20 from the democrats/independents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve-O
There are 435 voting members of the House of Representatives, so in that case you would need 290. Right now the gop holds 242 seats. All of the House seats will be up for election this year. It should also be noted that this will be the 1st election after the redistricting from the 2010 census. That comes into play as a never before seen amount of republican governors and state legislatures drew those new districts. So it is not unreasonable to think that the republicans could hold their 242 and pick up another 48.
I know that it is far fetched, but there the backlash from the ruling could be what sweeps the conservatives to victory in November. If the republicans can use it to bring in the Ron Paul supporters and the fringe Tea Party members, they may get all the votes they need. It should also be noted that all of those 99% protesters will realized that they just got another tax and not the free ride they wanted and will turn on Obama. The same can be said for those 21 to 28 year olds who may see their student loan rates double under the rule of a democratic White House.
Anything is possible.
Fergie nice try, I actually enjoy it when conservatives take on Muslims,
moderately brainwashed vs extremely brainwashed, I just sit back and let them go at it.
67 votes in the senate will never happen, on either side.Quote:
Originally Posted by shortbuspokerWell, there are 100 senators and it takes a 2/3 majority to repeal a law. So if we round up that is 67 votes. Right now there are 51 democrats, 47 republicans, and 2 independents(who vote with the democratic majority a large amount of the time. This fall there will be 10 gop seats, the dems will have 21, and the 2 independents will be up for vote. It is not a stretch given the last batch of election for the republicans to keep their 10 and take the needed 20 from the democrats/independents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve-O
There are 435 voting members of the House of Representatives, so in that case you would need 290. Right now the gop holds 242 seats. All of the House seats will be up for election this year. It should also be noted that this will be the 1st election after the redistricting from the 2010 census. That comes into play as a never before seen amount of republican governors and state legislatures drew those new districts. So it is not unreasonable to think that the republicans could hold their 242 and pick up another 48.
I know that it is far fetched, but there the backlash from the ruling could be what sweeps the conservatives to victory in November. If the republicans can use it to bring in the Ron Paul supporters and the fringe Tea Party members, they may get all the votes they need. It should also be noted that all of those 99% protesters will realized that they just got another tax and not the free ride they wanted and will turn on Obama. The same can be said for those 21 to 28 year olds who may see their student loan rates double under the rule of a democratic White House.
Anything is possible.
As far as the cost, it actually costs more to have uninsured (which is why band-aids are $7 in the USA and cost mere cents in say Germany or France) because we guarantee treatment even for people who can't pay. Either way you are paying for it, so just give them insurance so they at least can get some preventative care and cost us less. Theyv'e done studies that show something liek 20% of all people in the Us use 80% of the health care dollars, and a lot of it could be prevented with preventative care. And for anyone who thinks I'm talking out my ass I lived in germany for two years (off and on) and have seen their doctor's visits and Emergency Rooms first hand... I also could tell you how the Germans feel about the taxes they pay including health insurance.
Personally I think everyone should be guaranteed basic health care from the government and then be left to their own devices for supplemental insurances.
I'm not sure where Gamble-Bot studied history but I do know he should immediately hire a good lawyer to sue for a college tuition refund.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMBLE-BOT**If you read this whole rant, you will quickly realize that it is a little less lib partial as you might think.**Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergie72
I think you are wrong there Fergie. I think WWII and the space progam which both created trillions in future profits for private US corporations/contractors was pretty successful.....along with reaching its desired goal ahead of schedule were just a couple of examples of not only working but working efficiently. Also the Scandanavian countries who enjoy free and excellent health care would argue your claims. But only a moron would engage in that argument with you as the government isn't running anything in the healthcare field as it is in those Scananavian countries...(who incidentally would go to war before they allowed their health care to be changed to ours)......our government is providing regulations similar to the auto insurance industry. The Scandanavian system, which is actually government run (unlike Obamacare) enjoys an approval rating in the 80+% range in those countries. These are people that actually have EXPERIENCED that type of care there, unlike Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. Its also amusing to listen to to completely different types of successful European medical systems being atatcked as if they are all one unit of socialized medicine. Even though they are all very very different systems with only one thing in common...that ther isn't a single country you would raise your family in that doesn't have socialized or a government run health system. Not one. And if you care about saving money, you might realize our current system is per person the absolute worst in cost and amongst civilized countries worst in coverage. We are the only modern country where not only can you go bankrupt due to a health condition of a family member out of your control...you are LIKELY to. And medical bankruptcy is the number one cause of bankruptcy. Nevermind that we are last in preventitive care and are behind countries such as Poland in infant mortality rate....it is not much of a stretch to argue that our country in fact DOESN'T have the best care for its general population (not just the very rich) and with the spiralling costs that increase yearly whethere Obamacare got passed or not, its not like we are tinkering with a good system here. The ability to service the Shieks of Saudi Arabia and Heads of State of some African country with the best the free market has to offer is not going away because of this or any bill. I am more concerned about whether we are the best system for the average person and that answer is an overwhelming resounding "no" by any person that has ever studied our system no matter how conservative. It's broken due to cost alone and unless we start euthanizing poor people, it is only going to get worse.
How dumb do you have to be to not only believe this opinion but espouse it on the internet? I mean Dandruff is a conservative for instance. He probably detests the bill, as do I. But he is smart enough to know this isn't a take over of government health care. They aren't running the health care system. Its not close. Step one would be the United Kingdom, where a private system competes with a public system. Step two would be a single payer system, once again run by private industry with the government picking up the tab. Step three towards socialized medicine would be.....actual socialized medicine like it is in most civilized country where the doctor is an actual government worker.
Now I am not arguing which method is better. They all work in providing high quality health care. The countries using the above methods live longer and are less expensive per person. Now we could argue all day but the fact is these plans are comparable once you factor in the value of cost. I for one prefer the British method, but they all have their flaws. And yes, the UNites States obviously has HUGE flaws considering the costs rise 20% every year no matter what party is in charge. The Dems claim that reining in insurance companies profit and wasteful emergency room spending will lower costs. The CBO (Congressional Budget Office) agrees that it will cut costs. There is ZERO disagreement that it will cut costs PER PERSON as many devastating and expensive illnesses will be prevented with a simple checkup. Along with the fact that many young people will join the ranks of the insured with little costs of their own, but will add to the kitty. These new and profitable customers are the reason the big insurance companies signed off on this deal and it passed congress. It is important for conservative to remember that their free market heroes such as Big Pharm, Hospital Chains. Most Doctors (AMA for example) and big insurance SUPPORTED this goddamn bill. The only people complaining are the people that don't understand the bill or simply hate giving away ANYTHING to the poor even if it determines their life or death. These are the exact same people that would let people starve to death in the streets if it was their option. Now there are benefits to society both ways, just a different perspective.
There are so many ways to argue the various points of this bill I can't even start....but one of the dumbest is calling it a government takeover. When it isn't even close. It is a start, but it would be the same as Democrats crying and claiming that Abortion was made illegal because partial birth abortions were outlawed. it just isn't accurate and it displays a level of intelligence that has no place in a serious or even casual political discussion. Is Obamacare the start of socialized or government controlled healthcare. Yes. In the same way that a partial birth abortion ban is a "start" to outlawing abortion. The thing is though....abortion is not going to get banned and the US will never fully copy European style healthcare systems. We are a different culture. We like the idea of punishing those less fortunate (not less hard working less fortunate like someone who works 2 low paying jobs and gets cancer) for achieving less than the desired norm. This aspect of our society has its advantages and disadvantages, and it is a damn shame that we cannot look at these things scientifically and accurately. Both sides just spout their ridiculous claims and cater to the low IQ portion of their base to stay in power. I don't have a solution, but I do know that most opinions on the health care law, welfare and many other conservative hot button issues....are just plain poorly reasoned....and severly underinformed. 95% of the people who claim welfare is the number one pronle with our country cannot name a single federal government agency that provides said "welfare". People that complain the loudest about foodstamps often do so in a conservative state and do not realize that it is their red state that provides the foodstamps, not the federal government. Hilarious watching dimwits blame Obama for excess foodstamp spending. When he has zero control over your program. Congress has more control in matching funds. You want to know why foodstamps will never go away? Its not a love of handouts by the Dems or a weakness by the "RINO's"....its two things 1) Foodstamps cuts crime. It is a fucking fact. Starving people commit crimes. Everytime. And crime prevention, prosecution, control, sentencing, incarceration, rehabilitation and victimization is VERY VERY VERY expensive, and that is just for the government. Private security costs destroy retails profit margin. Particularly grocers and other food retailers which leads me to the most important reason food stamps will never go away: Food lobbyists. Bribe both sides. Insure that foodstamp program expands every year.
If you can follow my reasoning in the reason we have a healthy foodstamp program and likely always will, you may understand why I hate this health care bill so much. SUper powerful, super profitable, Industry led special interest lobbyists control our government. And nearly everytime politics is debated and one side attacks the other....without mentioning this fact, the real problem in our country is ignored and useless, ignorant political discussion ensues.
Quit being a victim of the smokescreen, stop espousing your sides talking points and listen to the point the other side is trying to make. As for the health care bill. Give it a chance. It might just work. It works for other countries. I think it will fail as a cost control because of corporate freebies for big industry. To be fair I believe that is why all our policies fail. People just don't understand why supporting large corporations unfairly with tax breaks destroys the middle class but particularly destroys the productivity of small business. Small business has to compete unfairly with a less efficient but well connected and well lobbied...evil machine, a conglomerate of large industry. And the Democrats are a huge part of that, certainly more pathetic than the Republicans, because the Dems are the ones that are the ones that were supposed to protect the little guy and the small business. They sold us down the river and I believe they did the same with this health care bill. They should have insisted on single payer and ran the goddamn insurance companies out of business. Imagine an entire industry that cures no patients, whose best interest is to NOT provide coverage, soaking up over 20% of the medical nudget and at the same time destroying out local free market system of healthcare and doctor/patient choice. Destroying the ability for small medical companies to compete or even have research on their product happen.
LOL at the ridiculous argument that this healthcare plan puts the government between you and your doctor. I wish it would. It is a whole lot better than a middle manager at an insurance company being between you and your doctor, only with an incentive to deny you coverage. That IS the current reality and it would be impossible to argue otherwise. Don't be an idiot and parrot that talking point please. Because that IS the absolute dumbest, most indefensible argument in politics right now. Especially since there is to date, no socialized medicine in this country. Only the same type of guidelines we have for our Life,Auto and property insurance companies. Because only in this country do you do more preventive care for your home and auto than you do for your body....and the government paying for things (ie the people) would change that.
We will evolve as a society once we transition from sick care to health care....and stop running a sick sick lotto system where you go bankrupt when you have cancer.....because only 10% of the population can afford the 10% co-pay for cancer treatment, and a system designed to protect 10% of the population is not a democratic system. Which we don't have either at this time.
Comparing Obamacare to WWII is like comparing apples to hand grenades.
Newsflash to Gamble-Bot: The Japanese attacked the USA on December 7, 1941 and Germany declared war against the USA on December 11, 1941. To equate our country's response in WWII to Obama's healthcare law is ridiculous.
The Space Program, although initially exciting and popular, was one of our country's greatest boondoggles. A government run program that was rife with waste, incompetence and corruption. Gamble-Bot said it was an efficiently run government program. Really? Where is it today?
European countries are on the verge of collapse mainly due to socialist policies including government run healthcare. They have all failed. Gamble-Bot praises these failed government healthcare programs. I say, OK, move to Europe.
After Mitt Romney defeats Obama and the GOP gains control of the Senate while retaining a majority in the House, Obamacare will be repealed.
The GOP will then offer real improvements to healthcare. Some in the GOP have recommended making medical expenses, including health care premiums, 100% tax-deductible for all not just insurance purchased through employers. Plus, the expansion of Health Savings Accounts, buy insurance across state lines, tort reform, and the creation of Association Health Plans, allowing small businesses to band together through trade groups to buy health insurance for their workers at much lower costs.
Gamble-Bot's praise for food stamps and welfare is equally absurd. He claims these entitlement programs lower the crime rate. His logic is deeply flawed. It's like saying let's fund a government program for castration and hysterectomies to lower the birth rate.
Yes, it will work but it is very bad policy.
People want to work. It gives them a sense of belonging, accomplishment and self worth. A nation of citizens dependent on the dole, on government handouts accomplishes the opposite, dependence, malaise and doubt.
American capitalism does not punish the unfortunate as Gamble-Bot would have you believe. It gives everyone an opportunity to succeed. Socialism has NEVER worked.....NEVER, yet Gamble-Bot wants socialized healthcare. Move to Cuba, they have a country full of delusional folks.
Gamble-Bot said Obama is not pushing to increase the ranks of welfare and food stamp recipients. Oh really?
USDA: Food Stamps Help You Look And Feel Great
Hey, Who’s Up For a Food Stamp Party?
Get your empty head out of the sand Gamble-Bot. Obama wants voters dependent on government handouts so they will vote for the Anointed One who will take from the productive and give to the unproductive.
Give Obamacare a chance Gamble-Bot!? That is a recipe for disaster.
I say give America a chance and vote for Mitt Romney, who will lower spending, lower taxes and rid our great nation of the socialist plague, including Obamacare.
:thisQuote:
Originally Posted by SixToedPeteI'm not sure where Gamble-Bot studied history but I do know he should immediately hire a good lawyer to sue for a college tuition refund.Quote:
Originally Posted by GAMBLE-BOT
Comparing Obamacare to WWII is like comparing apples to hand grenades.
Newsflash to Gamble-Bot: The Japanese attacked the USA on December 7, 1941 and Germany declared war against the USA on December 11, 1941. To equate our country's response in WWII to Obama's healthcare law is ridiculous.
The Space Program, although initially exciting and popular, was one of our country's greatest boondoggles. A government run program that was rife with waste, incompetence and corruption. Gamble-Bot said it was an efficiently run government program. Really? Where is it today?
European countries are on the verge of collapse mainly due to socialist policies including government run healthcare. They have all failed. Gamble-Bot praises these failed government healthcare programs. I say, OK, move to Europe.
After Mitt Romney defeats Obama and the GOP gains control of the Senate while retaining a majority in the House, Obamacare will be repealed.
The GOP will then offer real improvements to healthcare. Some in the GOP have recommended making medical expenses, including health care premiums, 100% tax-deductible for all not just insurance purchased through employers. Plus, the expansion of Health Savings Accounts, buy insurance across state lines, tort reform, and the creation of Association Health Plans, allowing small businesses to band together through trade groups to buy health insurance for their workers at much lower costs.
Gamble-Bot's praise for food stamps and welfare is equally absurd. He claims these entitlement programs lower the crime rate. His logic is deeply flawed. It's like saying let's fund a government program for castration and hysterectomies to lower the birth rate.
Yes, it will work but it is very bad policy.
People want to work. It gives them a sense of belonging, accomplishment and self worth. A nation of citizens dependent on the dole, on government handouts accomplishes the opposite, dependence, malaise and doubt.
American capitalism does not punish the unfortunate as Gamble-Bot would have you believe. It gives everyone an opportunity to succeed. Socialism has NEVER worked.....NEVER, yet Gamble-Bot wants socialized healthcare. Move to Cuba, they have a country full of delusional folks.
Gamble-Bot said Obama is not pushing to increase the ranks of welfare and food stamp recipients. Oh really?
USDA: Food Stamps Help You Look And Feel Great
Hey, Who’s Up For a Food Stamp Party?
Get your empty head out of the sand Gamble-Bot. Obama wants voters dependent on government handouts so they will vote for the Anointed One who will take from the productive and give to the unproductive.
Give Obamacare a chance Gamble-Bot!? That is a recipe for disaster.
I say give America a chance and vote for Mitt Romney, who will lower spending, lower taxes and rid our great nation of the socialist plague, including Obamacare.