Active Shooter, Parkland, FL High School

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Originally Posted by abrown83

I do love the fantasy world the anti-gun people live in and wish I could live there too.

90 million gun owners, 300 million guns and a few trillion rounds of ammunition floating around.

In what world do you ban guns does it have any effect on anything?

Also, who are you going to get to enforce said law? The police and armed forces that have near 100% gun ownership rates?

How about we start with practical laws like firearm insurance, required firearm training and better background checks?

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that would be a good start.

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Originally Posted by hongkonger

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Originally Posted by abrown83

I do love the fantasy world the anti-gun people live in and wish I could live there too.

90 million gun owners, 300 million guns and a few trillion rounds of ammunition floating around.

In what world do you ban guns does it have any effect on anything?

Also, who are you going to get to enforce said law? The police and armed forces that have near 100% gun ownership rates?

How about we start with practical laws like firearm insurance, required firearm training and better background checks?

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that would be a good start.

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ok, that's fine, but how will that have any effect on the shootings at issue? It won't. So it is little more than window dressing.

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Originally Posted by Tellafriend

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Originally Posted by hongkonger

that would be a good start.

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ok, that's fine, but how will that have any effect on the shootings at issue? It won't. So it is little more than window dressing.

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Yeah, doing absolutely fucking nothing is obviously the better play.

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Originally Posted by Daly

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Originally Posted by blake

but the current makeup in the country is changing. i posted this already but a total gun ban is inevitable. all you have to do is look at demographics and look at polls showing how those groups vote.

gun rights advocates are more strongly concentrated in white rural uneducated groups, but that group is disappearing

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An overwhelming majority of African Americans say that gun control is more important than gun rights (72 percent to 24 percent).

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Gun control is extremely popular among Hispanics, with 75 percent favoring gun safety over gun rights.

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A recent poll of Asian American registered voters found that 80 percent supported stricter gun laws.

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Support for gun control is correlated, too, with levels of education. Gun rights are favored by a slim majority of those who attended only high school (50 percent to 47 percent). Among those with a college degree, however, 58 percent favor gun control, compared with 38 percent for gun rights. This demographic is also trending in a favorable direction for gun control advocates. Between 2002 and 2012, enrollment in degree-granting institutions increased by 24 percent.

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...=.fe6e77b53dd9


there's also other factors that affect thinking on gun ownership like pop culture and the decline of religion which are trending in the wrong direction for gun enthusiasts.

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I'm not going to argue the trend. But now is not 10 years from now and a constitutional amendment just isn't on the table.

So with that in mind - what can be done now.

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as far as stricter gun control legislation, without trump's leadership, the answer is probably nothing because it's not in the GOP interests to pass anything.

i'm talking even sensible things that most gun owners believe in like raising the age of buying AR-15's from 18 to to 21 (like handguns) and more extensive screenings. the NRA is convinced that the slightest encroachment on gun rights will ultimately trickle down to banning guns completely (of course, they're right) so it's really hard to do anything.

if trump, himself, pushed stricter gun laws, he could get anything done he wanted to imo

we also need to seriously rework our mental health laws, including when you can institutionalize someone or subject them to enhanced scrutiny. both dems and republicans will have issues with this, but it's overdue.

as far as a non-legislative thing, i want the national guard in every fucking school in the country.

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Originally Posted by blake

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Originally Posted by Daly

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Originally Posted by blake

but the current makeup in the country is changing. i posted this already but a total gun ban is inevitable. all you have to do is look at demographics and look at polls showing how those groups vote.

gun rights advocates are more strongly concentrated in white rural uneducated groups, but that group is disappearing

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Gun control is extremely popular among Hispanics, with 75 percent favoring gun safety over gun rights.

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A recent poll of Asian American registered voters found that 80 percent supported stricter gun laws.

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Support for gun control is correlated, too, with levels of education. Gun rights are favored by a slim majority of those who attended only high school (50 percent to 47 percent). Among those with a college degree, however, 58 percent favor gun control, compared with 38 percent for gun rights. This demographic is also trending in a favorable direction for gun control advocates. Between 2002 and 2012, enrollment in degree-granting institutions increased by 24 percent.

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...=.fe6e77b53dd9


there's also other factors that affect thinking on gun ownership like pop culture and the decline of religion which are trending in the wrong direction for gun enthusiasts.

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I'm not going to argue the trend. But now is not 10 years from now and a constitutional amendment just isn't on the table.

So with that in mind - what can be done now.

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as far as stricter gun control legislation, without trump's leadership, the answer is probably nothing because it's not in the GOP interests to pass anything.

i'm talking even sensible things that most gun owners believe in like raising the age of buying AR-15's from 18 to to 21 (like handguns) and more extensive screenings. the NRA is convinced that the slightest encroachment on gun rights will ultimately trickle down to banning guns completely (of course, they're right) so it's really hard to do anything.

if trump, himself, pushed stricter gun laws, he could get anything done he wanted to imo

we also need to seriously rework our mental health laws, including when you can institutionalize someone or subject them to enhanced scrutiny. both dems and republicans will have issues with this, but it's overdue.

as far as a non-legislative thing, i want the national guard in every fucking school in the country.

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Militarizing our civic institutions will make things worse, not better.

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Originally Posted by blake

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Originally Posted by Daly

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Originally Posted by blake

but the current makeup in the country is changing. i posted this already but a total gun ban is inevitable. all you have to do is look at demographics and look at polls showing how those groups vote.

gun rights advocates are more strongly concentrated in white rural uneducated groups, but that group is disappearing

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Gun control is extremely popular among Hispanics, with 75 percent favoring gun safety over gun rights.

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A recent poll of Asian American registered voters found that 80 percent supported stricter gun laws.

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Support for gun control is correlated, too, with levels of education. Gun rights are favored by a slim majority of those who attended only high school (50 percent to 47 percent). Among those with a college degree, however, 58 percent favor gun control, compared with 38 percent for gun rights. This demographic is also trending in a favorable direction for gun control advocates. Between 2002 and 2012, enrollment in degree-granting institutions increased by 24 percent.

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...=.fe6e77b53dd9


there's also other factors that affect thinking on gun ownership like pop culture and the decline of religion which are trending in the wrong direction for gun enthusiasts.

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I'm not going to argue the trend. But now is not 10 years from now and a constitutional amendment just isn't on the table.

So with that in mind - what can be done now.

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as far as stricter gun control legislation, without trump's leadership, the answer is probably nothing because it's not in the GOP interests to pass anything.

i'm talking even sensible things that most gun owners believe in like raising the age of buying AR-15's from 18 to to 21 (like handguns) and more extensive screenings. the NRA is convinced that the slightest encroachment on gun rights will ultimately trickle down to banning guns completely (of course, they're right) so it's really hard to do anything.

if trump, himself, pushed stricter gun laws, he could get anything done he wanted to imo

we also need to seriously rework our mental health laws, including when you can institutionalize someone or subject them to enhanced scrutiny. both dems and republicans will have issues with this, but it's overdue.

as far as a non-legislative thing, i want the national guard in every fucking school in the country.

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The gun industry is right that giving any concessions will open up a slippery slope where more and more restrictive laws get passed. That's typically what ends up happening regarding highly polarizing issues.

Think of the gay/transgender laws over the past 15 years. First it was civil unions. Then it was gay marriage. Then it was trans bathroom rights. Then it was "discrimination" laws in some areas where someone's preferred pronouns aren't used. Had it started in 2002 with, "Transgender people need to be able to use their bathroom of choice, and employers who refuse to use their preferred pronoun can be civilly liable for discriminatory behavior", almost nobody would have gone for this.

So often these things really do happen in phases, and those conceding moderately often ask themselves, "WTF just happened?" when it's all over.

I find it realistic that gun laws may go the same way.

What we need would be some sort of promise from the left to the gun industry (and gun rights advocates) of, "If you pass XXXX change, we promise not to pursue YYYY."

Of course that's not binding, but it's something the gun industry can use in their own defense if that promise is ever broken.

Regarding school shootings, and why they seem to "only" happen in the US, it's unfortunately become a cultural thing.

For those that can remember before 1998 (which is most of you), tell me how many school shootings you recall prior to Columbine.

I remember zero.

I'm not saying there was zero, but there wasn't a chronic problem. Unfortunately, the Columbine shooters put the idea in twisted kids' heads of, "Shoot up the school if you're mad about something or want attention", and now we have school shootings like this.

You can never compare gun violence in the US to that in other countries, because the US is a unique place with unique challenges.

Even if you believe full gun control is the answer, taking the weapons from law-abiding citizens would be a disaster, because there are such a large number of illegal guns in the US at this point, we would have a situation where criminals are armed and know normal citizens aren't.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Regarding school shootings, and why they seem to "only" happen in the US, it's unfortunately become a cultural thing.

For those that can remember before 1998 (which is most of you), tell me how many school shootings you recall prior to Columbine.

I remember zero.

I'm not saying there was zero, but there wasn't a chronic problem. Unfortunately, the Columbine shooters put the idea in twisted kids' heads of, "Shoot up the school if you're mad about something or want attention", and now we have school shootings like this.

You can never compare gun violence in the US to that in other countries, because the US is a unique place with unique challenges.

Even if you believe full gun control is the answer, taking the weapons from law-abiding citizens would be a disaster, because there are such a large number of illegal guns in the US at this point, we would have a situation where criminals are armed and know normal citizens aren't.

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they really don't need to ban guns to make legislation more effective. i think israel requires you to be 27 before owning a gun. they also subject you to enhanced background checks, limit the number of bullets you can buy a year, limit you to pistols, etc.

these types of laws make a ton of sense and would help the mass shooting situations.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Regarding school shootings, and why they seem to "only" happen in the US, it's unfortunately become a cultural thing.

For those that can remember before 1998 (which is most of you), tell me how many school shootings you recall prior to Columbine.

I remember zero.

I'm not saying there was zero, but there wasn't a chronic problem. Unfortunately, the Columbine shooters put the idea in twisted kids' heads of, "Shoot up the school if you're mad about something or want attention", and now we have school shootings like this.

You can never compare gun violence in the US to that in other countries, because the US is a unique place with unique challenges.

Even if you believe full gun control is the answer, taking the weapons from law-abiding citizens would be a disaster, because there are such a large number of illegal guns in the US at this point, we would have a situation where criminals are armed and know normal citizens aren't.

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Yes and basketball diaries came before the Colorado shootings. And was referenced by the killers. That being said its not like the rest of the world didn;t see either of these events...

Oh and lets not forget the great movie Heathers (not quite a shooting though).

People forget the first recent mass shooting was that guy from a perch at the University of Texas in the 60s, he clipped like 15. Then there was the McDonalds shooting in San Deigo I believe in the early 80s of like 25.

This is not a new deal, what is new is the frequency. It's not a proliferation of guns, rather a proliferation of the internet. In the past, a loser was simply a loser and they generally just ended up homeless or in jail or tending a cash register. Now they go onto the internet and try to become a modern day Charles Mason or worse a sniper.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Regarding school shootings, and why they seem to "only" happen in the US, it's unfortunately become a cultural thing.

For those that can remember before 1998 (which is most of you), tell me how many school shootings you recall prior to Columbine.

I remember zero.

I'm not saying there was zero, but there wasn't a chronic problem. Unfortunately, the Columbine shooters put the idea in twisted kids' heads of, "Shoot up the school if you're mad about something or want attention", and now we have school shootings like this.

You can never compare gun violence in the US to that in other countries, because the US is a unique place with unique challenges.

Even if you believe full gun control is the answer, taking the weapons from law-abiding citizens would be a disaster, because there are such a large number of illegal guns in the US at this point, we would have a situation where criminals are armed and know normal citizens aren't.

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isn't the biggest "challenge" here that everyone has guns, where they don't anywhere else? this seems like circular reasoning

But really the big problem is how obsessed Americans are with guns and the mentality that follows it. You are correct that taking them away is not practical. But America is essentially getting what it deserves. As more and more of these killings occur you will slowly see cultural changes but its likely going to take decades.

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Originally Posted by blake

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Regarding school shootings, and why they seem to "only" happen in the US, it's unfortunately become a cultural thing.

For those that can remember before 1998 (which is most of you), tell me how many school shootings you recall prior to Columbine.

I remember zero.

I'm not saying there was zero, but there wasn't a chronic problem. Unfortunately, the Columbine shooters put the idea in twisted kids' heads of, "Shoot up the school if you're mad about something or want attention", and now we have school shootings like this.

You can never compare gun violence in the US to that in other countries, because the US is a unique place with unique challenges.

Even if you believe full gun control is the answer, taking the weapons from law-abiding citizens would be a disaster, because there are such a large number of illegal guns in the US at this point, we would have a situation where criminals are armed and know normal citizens aren't.

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isn't the biggest "challenge" here that everyone has guns, where they don't anywhere else? this seems like circular reasoning

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That's one of the challenges, yes. The population is large, the geographic area is spread out, and the number of illegal guns is very numerous.

Another challenge is just that American culture has always been violent, compared to other first world countries. There are many historical and sociological factors to this. Much of this is hard to reverse, at least not quickly.

Bottom line is that disarming the law-abiding citizens would be a disaster at this point.

We would see mass shootings decrease, but crimes against innocent citizens (such as home invasions and small businesses) would increase.

I'll take the mass shooting gamble (affects a tiny, tiny percentage of the population) and feel more secure that the average home invader knows that I could easily be armed (and actually am).

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

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Originally Posted by blake

isn't the biggest "challenge" here that everyone has guns, where they don't anywhere else? this seems like circular reasoning

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That's one of the challenges, yes. The population is large, the geographic area is spread out, and the number of illegal guns is very numerous.

Another challenge is just that American culture has always been violent, compared to other first world countries. There are many historical and sociological factors to this. Much of this is hard to reverse, at least not quickly.

Bottom line is that disarming the law-abiding citizens would be a disaster at this point.

We would see mass shootings decrease, but crimes against innocent citizens (such as home invasions and small businesses) would increase.

I'll take the mass shooting gamble (affects a tiny, tiny percentage of the population) and feel more secure that the average home invader knows that I could easily be armed (and actually am).

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Yeah Im sure its a real deterrant for your average Compton n-word wannabe homeinvader knowing that the middage jew is sleeping with some pussified shooting instrument under his pillow

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Bottom line is that disarming the law-abiding citizens would be a disaster at this point.

We would see mass shootings decrease, but crimes against innocent citizens (such as home invasions and small businesses) would increase.

I'll take the mass shooting gamble (affects a tiny, tiny percentage of the population) and feel more secure that the average home invader knows that I could easily be armed (and actually am).

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this is commonly believed but i don't really buy it. if they made owning a gun a 5-year mandatory minimum sentence, the only people that would own them would be the hardest of the hardcore criminals. i'm talking gang members and drug dealers. i can't see there being be a home invasion spree.

you think a 5-year sentence wouldn't be enough of a deterrent? ok, make it a life sentence.

this would be completely draconian, but if you want to talk in terms of net positives and negatives, these laws would go a long way to greatly reducing gun violence, with the added bonus of completely erasing mass shootings

countries with these sorts of regulations / restrictions on firearms see little to no gun violence.



but tell me more about the white thug menace.

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Originally Posted by adamantium

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

That's one of the challenges, yes. The population is large, the geographic area is spread out, and the number of illegal guns is very numerous.

Another challenge is just that American culture has always been violent, compared to other first world countries. There are many historical and sociological factors to this. Much of this is hard to reverse, at least not quickly.

Bottom line is that disarming the law-abiding citizens would be a disaster at this point.

We would see mass shootings decrease, but crimes against innocent citizens (such as home invasions and small businesses) would increase.

I'll take the mass shooting gamble (affects a tiny, tiny percentage of the population) and feel more secure that the average home invader knows that I could easily be armed (and actually am).

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Yeah Im sure its a real deterrant for your average Compton n-word wannabe homeinvader knowing that the middage jew is sleeping with some pussified shooting instrument under his pillow

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You are correct on home invasions. My guns are locked in a closet in my bedroom, upstairs. If a home invader busted through my door while downstairs or in my basement I would be completely fucked. I guess in theory I could keep a gun on multiple levels but that seems overkill. Even if a home invader crushed through my door and ran upstairs, I would be in a dead sleep and could not get the key in time to make a difference anyway.

Either way I am not giving up my firearms. Ever.

I want to comment further on your post, I highly doubt Druff sleeps with a gun under his pillow. That is an old legendary tale, it would be impossible to ever sleep since your hands are generally underneath your pillow like 50% of the time.

Your best protection is a dog and an alarm system plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by adamantium

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

That's one of the challenges, yes. The population is large, the geographic area is spread out, and the number of illegal guns is very numerous.

Another challenge is just that American culture has always been violent, compared to other first world countries. There are many historical and sociological factors to this. Much of this is hard to reverse, at least not quickly.

Bottom line is that disarming the law-abiding citizens would be a disaster at this point.

We would see mass shootings decrease, but crimes against innocent citizens (such as home invasions and small businesses) would increase.

I'll take the mass shooting gamble (affects a tiny, tiny percentage of the population) and feel more secure that the average home invader knows that I could easily be armed (and actually am).

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Yeah Im sure its a real deterrant for your average Compton n-word wannabe homeinvader knowing that the middage jew is sleeping with some pussified shooting instrument under his pillow

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I don't know if any study has looked at this, but I don't think that mass gun ownership in a community is a crime deterrent. I also don't really think that people that have guns in the house have less crimes committed against them. I would suspect that having guns in your house results in a lot more accidental deaths, including children finding the guns and shooting themselves, but not any real positive benefit.

Our gun laws are laughable.

I went to a gun show last week and bought an AR15 and 1k rounds of 9mm. Guy didn't even ask me if I was a state resident for the AR which he should have, and wanted to sell me some ammo and drum magazines. Lol at gun shows. Lol at very shitty background checks. Lol at private party gun sales with no documentation needed. Lol at drum magazines and bump stocks. Lol at the NRA.

I'm all for gun rights but at some point you just realize it's all fucked.