Time to get on the TRUMP train

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Originally Posted by Zap_the_Fractions_Giraffe

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Originally Posted by hongkonger

They may be hypocrites but they are still a HUGE political force.

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who the fuck are "they"? hongkonger, i know you're from Indiana. I lived in Carmel for years. the shining city on the hill. white flight suburb, extremely wealthy, all republican. 'real' Christians were still WEIRD there. not the norm. it's just not even a thing. even when I lived in TEXAS or ALABAMA or MISSISSIPPI... Christianity is basically a social club. nobody lives by the word. the church are the people who go to your weddings, funerals, you eat ham sandwiches with them at high school graduation parties. i'm just being real with you man. we are not halfassed characters from some stupid Stephen King book. you and sonatine's anti-Christian attitude is fucking weird. there is not a Christian problem in America. the GOP does get a big chunk of the white christian vote (and the DNC gets all the black christian vote but that's another discussion) but you have to take into account that the GOP basically gets the white vote in every state period. and if white people/christians were eliminated like you guys seem to want, then literally every state would be blue. does that make the GOP racist or does that make the Democrat party racist? should we even be talking about religion/skin color? isn't that bigoted as fuck? can you give me credit for leaning to the Republican side because i don't believe Democrat politicians and want to minimize the size and scope of the government? can you give me, personally, credit for actually weighing my options and coming to a different conclusion to you?

let's entertain the idea that there is a Christian problem. what do you suppose we do about it? strip Christians of the vote? reverse holocaust? i know i fuck around and troll on this site a lot, i'm not joking now. i'm backspacing a lot trying to be civil. i actually want to hear your opinion. if you insist on lumping people together based on color/religious background, then lets get real for a second. white people with christian background (not necessarily "christians" but people who got christmas presents) are still the largest group in this country BY FAR. it's not smart to write them off. it's not smart to pit yourself against them and expect to win. the fact that they don't want to pay for your sex reassignment surgery, abortions or heroin needles has nothing to do with the fact that they know the words to Silent Night.

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so, Zap raises more good points in 3 posts than most of you were able to raise in 1500+ pages of posts.

I have never discussed which way I lean politically - nor will I, suffice to say that I have the tendency towards being socially liberal and fiscally conservative. That said, if you cannot get down with the points Zap makes, there isn’t something wrong with your political ideologies - there is something wrong with your sense of entitlement, your sense of self and your overall sense of morality.

If you are not applauding Zap’s post(s) it means one of two things:
1. You’re a troll or;
2. You epitomize narcissism and you are only able to see in front of your own face. You are not only self-centered but also have an exaggerated sense of self-importance. That and, clearly – your only moral compass is your own ego.

Tyde, Mr Dials, MintWetBackLips, etal. much respect for your tenacity and for the time and energy you’ve committed to the cause – but I have to believe at the end of the day, even you fellas classify as #1.

The only true patriot, of these parts, is Todd. He embodies all parts of #2. He has time and time again proven he suffers from grossly inflated sense of self, a lack of morality and an inability to see the forest beyond the trees.

I am pretty impassioned right now, so before I go on and say something I really regret, its time I take a nap.

Ciao, boys.

Zap

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i'm backspacing a lot trying to be civil.

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Just caught his posts, Kilgore. Because it’s in the Trump thread I almost missed them.

We talk about having a beer with someone. Zap just constantly amazes me with his range. You would need to drink with this guy for several days before you had any appreciation for his depth.

I have never had an original thought in my life. I can riff on someone else’s idea. Zap is a true original. So original he can’t be copied or imitated.

Kilgore, did you catch the Silent Night and Christmas gift reference as a measure of Christianity? He’s good. A great read.

I applaud Zap’s post cause it’s so unexpected from him. Guy’s a fucking superhero.

damn zap, i'm not a trump person, but those were some solid posts/arguments

druff, i have a prank call idea for your next show.

https://www.mediaite.com/online/list...air-force-one/

Listen: ‘Stuttering John’ Prank Call Actually Gets to Trump on Air Force One

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Originally Posted by blake

druff, i have a prank call idea for your next show.

https://www.mediaite.com/online/list...air-force-one/

Listen: ‘Stuttering John’ Prank Call Actually Gets to Trump on Air Force One

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I wish I had thought of this.

I actually once tricked the Beverly Hilton to connect me to President Reagan's room. This was in 1988. I was in the hotel, and I picked up an internal phone, and convinced the operator that I was a member of his staff. Someone answered the phone in his room and said he was in the bathroom, and then asked who I was. I got scared at that point and hung up.

Zap I really don't disagree with anything you've said. I am talking about a core of fanatics who want to turn America into a theocracy and have the mindset, the long-term strategy and the financial backing, who are leading a lot of people down a very dangerous path with them. It is a surprisingly large chunk of the electorate particularly in the south and to some extent the midwest. I am emphatically NOT criticizing Christians or Christianity or lumping all conservatives into the same boat.

so the fact that the pro-life, anti-science, xenophobic venn diagrams for the republican party and the conservative christian movement are a single overlapping circle is some wacky coincidence?

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Originally Posted by sonatine

so the fact that the pro-life, anti-science, xenophobic venn diagrams for the republican party and the conservative christian movement are a single overlapping circle is some wacky coincidence?

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I don't think this is fair. There are a lot of Republicans who vote that way for fiscal or pro-business reasons. (Leaving aside whether Republicans are actually more fiscally responsible.) Or they are socially conservative without being crazy Taliban-level theocrats. And then there are the xenophobes who are that way mostly due to economic insecurity and are neither pro-business nor heavily influenced by their religion. There are three big factions of the Republican party but they have to accommodate one another to elect candidates in most areas. They often actually don't like each other. You can't lump Todd in the with the crazies, for example. Or some of the other conservatives on this forum. Or George Will. And many of my friends who are Republicans. I disagree with them but they are reasonable people, they aren't just plain scary and fanatical like the hard core evangelical right.

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Originally Posted by hongkonger

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Originally Posted by sonatine

so the fact that the pro-life, anti-science, xenophobic venn diagrams for the republican party and the conservative christian movement are a single overlapping circle is some wacky coincidence?

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I don't think this is fair. There are a lot of Republicans who vote that way for fiscal or pro-business reasons. (Leaving aside whether Republicans are actually more fiscally responsible.) Or they are socially conservative without being crazy Taliban-level theocrats. And then there are the xenophobes who are that way mostly due to economic insecurity and are neither pro-business nor heavily influenced by their religion. There are three big factions of the Republican party but they have to accommodate one another to elect candidates in most areas. They often actually don't like each other. You can't lump Todd in the with the crazies, for example. Or some of the other conservatives on this forum. Or George Will. And many of my friends who are Republicans. I disagree with them but they are reasonable people, they aren't just plain scary and fanatical like the hard core evangelical right.

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cool, please find me a democrat christian conservative tho.

Zap,

I pretty much agree with you, but according to Gallup polls 40% of Americans believe God created man in his image about 10,000 years ago, and (borrowing terminology from Sonatine) this would have a pretty big overlap with people who are pro-life (and a lot of other conservative policy positions).

I think it is fair to characterize Christian identifying people that believe God made man 10,000 years ago and don't believe in gay marriage or abortion on religious grounds as "Christian Conservative."

I agree with you these are mostly good people and not the intolerant, racist monsters the illiberal media makes them out to be, but I still think characterizing them as "Bible-belters/Christian Conservatives/etc." is fair, even pointing out the inevitable inconsistencies between their lifestyle and the lifestyle one would expect a true follower of Christ to live.

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Originally Posted by verminaard

Zap,

I pretty much agree with you, but according to Gallup polls 40% of Americans believe God created man in his image about 10,000 years ago, and (borrowing terminology from Sonatine) this would have a pretty big overlap with people who are pro-life (and a lot of other conservative policy positions).

I think it is fair to characterize Christian identifying people that believe God made man 10,000 years ago and don't believe in gay marriage or abortion on religious grounds as "Christian Conservative."

I agree with you these are mostly good people and not the intolerant, racist monsters the illiberal media makes them out to be, but I still think characterizing them as "Bible-belters/Christian Conservatives/etc." is fair, even pointing out the inevitable inconsistencies between their lifestyle and the lifestyle one would expect a true follower of Christ to live.

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VERMINAARD WITH THE SICK ANTI TRUMPUBLICAN HEEL TURN SUCCCCCCCCCCCK IT REPUBLITARDS.

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Originally Posted by hongkonger

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Originally Posted by sonatine

so the fact that the pro-life, anti-science, xenophobic venn diagrams for the republican party and the conservative christian movement are a single overlapping circle is some wacky coincidence?

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I don't think this is fair. There are a lot of Republicans who vote that way for fiscal or pro-business reasons. (Leaving aside whether Republicans are actually more fiscally responsible.) Or they are socially conservative without being crazy Taliban-level theocrats. And then there are the xenophobes who are that way mostly due to economic insecurity and are neither pro-business nor heavily influenced by their religion. There are three big factions of the Republican party but they have to accommodate one another to elect candidates in most areas. They often actually don't like each other. You can't lump Todd in the with the crazies, for example. Or some of the other conservatives on this forum. Or George Will. And many of my friends who are Republicans. I disagree with them but they are reasonable people, they aren't just plain scary and fanatical like the hard core evangelical right.

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Fiscal conservatives might be the most level headed of the bunch but their brand is in many ways the most destructive. Some of their biggest donors don't care where politicians/organizations land with their social views as long as they are willing to show their support for a few key issues. They are opening the flood gates to Evangelicals and making sure gates can't be shut again.

But yea they (GOP) are rarely unified. I think the tax cuts is the only big thing they've been successful with. On the other hand small things that get very little coverage are corroding the system of checks and balances. They have tendency to spill outside your borders when something finally collapses (like the latest financial crisis).

As a longtime political observer, once-Republican activist (a Young Republican in high school), and Republican Party candidate supporter until 1992 (when the Moral Majority had become such a force within the party that Poppy Bush abandoned his pro-choice stance to fend off Pat Buchanon’s surging candidacy), I agree with Zap that characterizing Republicans en masse as science-denying, Young Earth-believing, socially repressive Christian nutjobs is flat out wrong and counterproductive. But what he is glossing over is that such religious conservotards dominate the GOP in most states, giving them outsized control over which GOPers are floated for public office. So while only 30-40% of Republican *voters* are likely such folks, 90-95% of *elected* GOP Congress members are currently such folks, or sufficiently pretend to be to garner their support in the primaries.

GM now saying American jobs are in jeopardy and car prices will increase, due to Trump.

#winning obv

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Originally Posted by sonatine

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Originally Posted by verminaard

Zap,

I pretty much agree with you, but according to Gallup polls 40% of Americans believe God created man in his image about 10,000 years ago, and (borrowing terminology from Sonatine) this would have a pretty big overlap with people who are pro-life (and a lot of other conservative policy positions).

I think it is fair to characterize Christian identifying people that believe God made man 10,000 years ago and don't believe in gay marriage or abortion on religious grounds as "Christian Conservative."

I agree with you these are mostly good people and not the intolerant, racist monsters the illiberal media makes them out to be, but I still think characterizing them as "Bible-belters/Christian Conservatives/etc." is fair, even pointing out the inevitable inconsistencies between their lifestyle and the lifestyle one would expect a true follower of Christ to live.

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VERMINAARD WITH THE SICK ANTI TRUMPUBLICAN HEEL TURN SUCCCCCCCCCCCK IT REPUBLITARDS.

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I am not sure I would go that far. Even though I don't believe the earth is 10,000 years old, I can still appreciate that we had a pretty good run the last 250 years or so as a nominally Christian nation, with a sizable % of the population being Evangelical.

I am very pessimistic things are going to work out very well under our current ethos of cultural Marxism, which focuses on us dividing ourselves into narrow groups that all feel victimized and aggrieved by eachother. I think that is a recipe for disaster for everyone.

OH WHOA WHOA WHOA, THATS MR MINTWETBACKLIPS TO YOU MOSQUITO TITS

Oh look you guys, it's a bitchy Jewish chick...............typical..........

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Originally Posted by verminaard

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Originally Posted by sonatine

VERMINAARD WITH THE SICK ANTI TRUMPUBLICAN HEEL TURN SUCCCCCCCCCCCK IT REPUBLITARDS.

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I am not sure I would go that far. Even though I don't believe the earth is 10,000 years old, I can still appreciate that we had a pretty good run the last 250 years or so as a nominally Christian nation, with a sizable % of the population being Evangelical.

I am very pessimistic things are going to work out very well under our current ethos of cultural Marxism, which focuses on us dividing ourselves into narrow groups that all feel victimized and aggrieved by eachother. I think that is a recipe for disaster for everyone.

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Evangelicalism as a force in the US political system has waxed and waned over time. For example, it was virtually a non-factor for the first 40-50 so years from the Declaration of Independence, as the founders tended to be skeptical of religious fanaticism that dominated some of the early colonial governments. But the religious revivalism in America that started in the 1820s eventually spawned the greatest change in himan rights this country ever experienced, as the American abolition movement grew out of that revivalism. But before then, American politics tended to ignore faith-based concerns, and instead focused on the material benefits of expanding commerce and territorial expansion on the continent.

Overall, there appears so far to have been three waves of evangelism in the US, withcurrent one being the third. And that only started becoming a factor in US politics with the rise the religious conservatives within the GOP starting in the 1970s. But it still wasn’t enough of factor to keep Poppy Bush from giving up his pro-choice stance in the ‘88 election cycle, but was by ‘92, when he vocally adopted an anti-abortion stance.

But evangelism still wasn’t a big enough factor for the GOP to abandon believing the science behind manmade climate change when Dubya ran in 2000. And even then, Junior only publicly claimed that the Kyoto deal was “not effective”, not that the science supporting climate change was fraudulent, as is the current gospel among the GOP leadership.

In short, to impy that evangelism has been a relatively constant force in American politics is is wrong. But at the same time, to say that it has only had a negative effect on American’s politics is also wrong. It just happens to be a horrible influence on our politics in recent decades.

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Originally Posted by sonatine

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Man, I just had this conversation with a friend last night and I’m going to have to send that tweet because it was basically the crux of what I was saying in a much more clever way. Dems keep thinking something is coming to the rescue to restore order. It isn’t.