Good morning homoQuote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
Quote:
Originally Posted by garrett
SHUT IT DOWN FAGGO- oh wow a 12 hour stand down.. holy shit...
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Good morning homoQuote:
Originally Posted by sonatineQuote:
Originally Posted by garrett
SHUT IT DOWN FAGGO- oh wow a 12 hour stand down.. holy shit...
did it just drop $40 in a minute or did my screen not refresh?! lol
ive seen it +/- that amount on a few occasions the last few days but its basically a statistical jitter from a significant trade from what i can gather, it usually levels out within a few seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooz
that said they just suspended trading, im showing at 120.90. its 100% possible it ducked to 80 or whatever when they cut the feed but other feeds kept receiving trading data for a few seconds after, hence they dont reflect that anomaly right now?
Yeah I just looked at preev.com and it was 120 when i loaded it up and 79 a couple of minutes later, then I read about the suspension and now it's not showing a price.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatineive seen it +/- that amount on a few occasions the last few days but its basically a statistical jitter from a significant trade from what i can gather, it usually levels out within a few seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooz
that said they just suspended trading, im showing at 120.90. its 100% possible it ducked to 80 or whatever when they cut the feed but other feeds kept receiving trading data for a few seconds after, hence they dont reflect that anomaly right now?
I would think that is a decent guess.
Bitcoin Just Took a Major Nosedive - But Why?Quote:
dailydot.com - Bitcoin, the world’s most popular virtual currency, dropped from a high of $265 to a low of $156 in a period of six hours Wednesday afternoon. Pretty much everyone the Daily Dot has spoken to recen...
because its totally illiquid and the only business thats embraced it is malware/hacking/spammers.
etc.Quote:
Update 3:
Gonzague Gay-Bouchery, the marketing and communications manager for Mt. Gox’s parent company, Tibanne Co., Ltd., responded to the Daily Dot’s request for clarification about the cause of today's price drop:
“Well, we are still under attack from last week but this was actually not what led to the lags and price crash. What happened last night was "Popularity!” We went from 10,000 new customers per month last year to 20, 30 and 60,000 in March, and just 10 days after April 1st, we had 75,000 new customers“ Yesterday alone 16,000 customers (current and new) all decided to trade at the same time, resulting in lag. Then people starting to panic due to the lag and resulting in a panic sale like last time but this one was not due to a DDoS.
“Our team is working around the clock to scale up our architecture. Prior to the crash yesterday we ordered several new ‘Monster’ servers from the U.S. and are waiting for them to be shipped back to us before deploying them in one of the two data center we are using here in Tokyo.
is there a way to get bitcoin thru paypal or my debit card? If not whats the ez way to get it by the end of the day.
These things are still going crazy I see with it at $123 again. Just imagine owning 1000 coins and seeing it fluctuate that quickly would tilt the shit out of me.
Here, I put up a bitcoin news aggregator: Bitcoin News
needs realtime quote of bitcoin price IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Dragons
Spam
I don't believe the "Bitcoin were so popular that we couldn't handle the load" story.
Anyway, I know this was already posted, but here is a shorter version of the Alex Jones show where Mike Adams predicts a bitcoin crash and in fact mentions a "cooling off period", which is in fact in effect right now. He mentions the cooling off period that exists on Wall Street, and it's interesting that it's now in place to attempt to halt the bitcoin collapse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7GP-SWj0HE
MtGox's story doesn't make sense for a few reasons:
1) The mtgox.com server seemed to perform well throughout the day, as the crash was occurring. If there were really server problems, you would have found mtgox very difficult to reach. It actually handled everything better than I expected during the selloff, given both the increased number of transactions and the repeated reloads by interested outside parties (such as most people here).
2) Bitcoin has recovered quickly from DDoS attacks, which in fact did hinder the mtgox server in the past. No cooling off period was needed, and the value rocketed back up to where it was previously. So why is this time different, if again the crash in value was due to server issues?
3) The value of bitcoin FELL from around $170-$180 (where it had been stable for several hours) to $120 AFTER the announcement that it was just due to temporary server problems. That's not a good sign.
The simple fact remains that the bitcoin market is extremely easy to manipulate because, unlike the stock market, where most people are trading through experienced stock brokers (and the average person doesn't do much trading), bitcoin is being traded by investing n00bs whose only knowledge of trading markets is "buy low, sell high".
So it's not difficult at all to manipulate the average Joe's natural fears and desires.
I made a similar point in the StubHub thread, where I mentioned that StubHub price fluctuations were incredibly easy to predict given that the ticket sellers were average folks and not experienced ticket brokers.
I think most of Alex Jones' conspiracy stuff is nonsense, but it wouldn't be at all far-fetched to believe that this was being manipulated some way, either by the banking industry, the government, or just a few smart people who realized how to drive up the bitcoin market, get out at a certain target value, intentionally cause a crash, and then rebuy.
To be honest, all it really takes to manipulate bitcoin upwards is to make buy orders substantially above sell orders, and then do the reverse to bring it back down. The downward slope will, of course, be a lot steeper than the upward one.
It's incredibly easy to manipulate the bitcoin market because it's all anonymous. There's no way to tell who or what is buying up all the bitcoin or selling them rapidly, so that makes it incredibly easy to falsify mass interest or mass panic, thus inducing real mass interest and real mass panic.
if the main trading exchange can't handle 16,000 simultaneous trades...well I'm at a loss for words
i was discussing this with a gov friend this morning and all he had to say was "when the majority of an entities userbase is in eastern europe, you dont want to be involved."
at this point id put the odds at 80% that eastern euro crimesphere is arbitrarily manipulating this market. it simply has all the hallmarks. its sophisticated, its relentless, and its working.
I am confused. I really don't read that much about bitcoins except for a few key areas and none deal with price manipulation. I do know you have to have the capital to place the sell orders in your mtgox account.. Do you not consider the capital required to buy in that volume to be significant ? Or am I missing something glaringly obvious ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
Explain this "incredibly easy" way without having the capital required. We can look at trade volumes and prices to get an idea of the capital required, right? Or is it your theory that these volume numbers are falsified by mtgox ?
Is it actually possible to place buy/sell orders in some way that amplifies your capital ? Kinda like trading on margin ?
I also wonder about these "collapses". Something that is trading 10x what it was a month ago.. What sort of metrics are people using when they refer to this as a "collapse"?
Thank you for your clarification.
Government is known for having the sharpest people at their disposal. <eyeroll>Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
I'd like to know how you can label it as "sophisticated" ? Kinda like god is sophisticated because no one ever talks to him except the crazies ? This criminal "crimesphere" that is just some jackasses guess.
Relentless? the DDOS ? What is "relentless" ? DDOS of one exchange is not going to kill bitcoins.
How exactly is it working? What are these objectives I missed...
You used to claim you'd never go near bitcoins because the feds were all over them or some ridiculous shit.. now you don't touch them because your "government friend" says eastern europeans are involved. It is laughable. Whats next? Too many candy eggs being purchased by Aussies ?
Nice feed brosephus.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Dragons
I can tell you are poised to cash in big on these things.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4dragons btc feed
I didn't say that it took no capital.Quote:
Originally Posted by donkdowndonediedI am confused. I really don't read that much about bitcoins except for a few key areas and none deal with price manipulation. I do know you have to have the capital to place the sell orders in your mtgox account.. Do you not consider the capital required to buy in that volume to be significant ? Or am I missing something glaringly obvious ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
Explain this "incredibly easy" way without having the capital required. We can look at trade volumes and prices to get an idea of the capital required, right? Or is it your theory that these volume numbers are falsified by mtgox ?
Is it actually possible to place buy/sell orders in some way that amplifies your capital ? Kinda like trading on margin ?
I also wonder about these "collapses". Something that is trading 10x what it was a month ago.. What sort of metrics are people using when they refer to this as a "collapse"?
Thank you for your clarification.
When I said "easy", I meant that it did not require a super-clever strategy or complex market manipulation schemes.
Certain people, groups, or entities with the capital to make this happen might have realized this opportunity and gone for it. There's also the possibility that this was manipulated on purpose by the government or banking industry, just to ruin the public's faith in bitcoin. People would be much more receptive to using and accepting bitcoin if it held a relatively static value, rather than launching up and down rapidly.
A "collapse" is something that loses over 50% of its value in one day. Wouldn't you say that's accurate?
There were many reports of the housing market "collapse" in 2007 and 2008, despite the fact that most of these properties were still worth more than what they went for in 2003. It was defined as a collapse because the recent buyers lost a lot of money on their investments in a very short period of time.
You didn't say "no capital" but you said "incredibly easy". I am still trying to figure how those 2 views jive with the numbers I jotted down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Druff
If there were complex marketing schemes, they'd be apparent by sharp people. I have not seen any of this, although my news is limited to English.
I agree that having volatile prices screws with bitcoins in regards to using them as a way to make purchases. I am not sure banks would be doing this becuase frankly it is too early. They going to keep pumping money into bitcoins just to keep it volatile? I bet there a ton of early adoption nerds who are sitting pretty from this. Maybe all the BTC bought up will be sold back in the future causing a huge collapse... I suppose it is possible.
it lost 50% in one day, or gained 1000% within a few weeks..... Uhhhhh..... uhhhhhh... collapse... It is exceptionally volatile when measured against other currencies, I'll go with that.
Housing market "collapsed" and it didnt' rebound and recollapse several times in a year. You are picking and choosing for your already decided beliefs. If I had to wager whether it'd hit 250 again by year's end or not, I'd go with it'll be back up. BTC have "collapsed" several times and people will continue to predict that they will collapse again. It is just more nonsense.
After reading this and thinking about it... The only way I could see manipulation occurring is by strategically placed ads/articles in foreign press that we are not aware of. That drove up the price via all these people who fear their fiat currency's longterm potential and possibly invested in BTC... Then all the BTC bought at $10 is sold on the way up. I'm just not seeing anything else.. but I don't read Alex Jones etc. I used to clown on him back when he was on local access TV, tho.
:lol3Quote:
Originally Posted by donkdowndonedied
What people don't understand here is that BTC fill a *very* valid need on the internet. That need is just minor day to day transactions. You want to monetize a website but use micropayments? Well BTC. What does it cost to setup? It isn't that $50 a month for a merchant account It isn't the 4% or whatever paypal charges and lets people reserve-chargeback scam you. It is really pretty simple. I've continually seen more and more places accepting bitcoins.
Most people who make their initial decision on such things are not very quick to change. Most people who hear about BTC are like, WTF? ( I know I was.. I am pretty sure I made fun of Micon.. but then as I actually read about them and understand how they work, I changed my mind to one of just being cautious ) Most people won't change until they are glaringly wrong. You see that all over in these threads.
The volatility really really sucks for commerce, but we are still on the beginning stages of BTC. No one comments on how BTC introduction compares to the introduction of any currency that is not backed by a precious metal. It is all just straight FUD.
If BTC were as janky as people want to believe, there wouldn't be near as many sharp people creating services based around them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by donkdowndonedied
lol, it's on autopilot and I only pick the feeds, not the stories. I can't add a real time anything. It's a free tool, good for peeking interest, not so much for driving traffic - unless i started writing my own stories and mixing them in with the others and including my own feed. I did put in the polka dot background though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by donkdowndonedied
It may always have a place for non tangible services such as subscriptions to online data services. This is because most merchants who sell a non tangible product rather get something than nothing for their product. The product they are selling is generally already completed and the overheard generally low when dealing with non tangibles (for example the micon system). For example, maybe the cost of updating whatever content service they provide or the cost of hosting it.
It is a completely different situation when you are dealing with tangibles. This is where i think BTC are going to have a real tough time. Unless you can mark you tangible product up to such a degree (like 5-10 times the cost to produce it) you are going to have a hard time justifying taking BTC over USD for it. IMO, the last few days have really hurt its chances of being accepted by merchant as a way for them to take payment for tangible goods.
Actually a bitcoin billing solution for porn sites is a great idea. Maybe it already existd, but if not, I just gave someone a million dollar idea. Porn sites will take ANYTHING they can get at this point. Plus you would avoid the 14 percent rape fee credit card processors charge the sites since they are deemed "high risk"
I agree 100% with this and thought about making the point, but I am too verbose as it is. A few things.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmoney
You can setup your site to offload the btc to the current market price as soon as you receive them. You don't have to operate in BTC solely. Contrary to what people say, they are fairly liquid. They're just as liquid as any other online currency. You get BTC, then you sell them into whatever currency you want with only a small vig. But yea, selling tangible goods/commodities has an added element of risk. That risk works both ways though, to be fair.
Maybe mtgox is having problems now, but I would hope this will be resolved in the future. There are also other exchanges. My android phone has been quoting hte price for 5 of them for months, but one appears offline. I think as some point, networks that are allowing these DDOS's to originate are just going to be kicked off the net. (Although Im not real certain how it works, but I think it requires IP spoofing, which can be eliminated before packets hit hte backbone..) It is just a problem that can't be allowed to continue. It is a matter of time.
Setting up recurring payments would be very difficult. You basically would need to setup your own wallet site that people keep funded. You have to initiate any outgoing payment. This is different from CCs, etc. This is one of the key reasons BTC is a lot more like gold/cash than people want to admit.
My concern more than anything is lobbyists for paypal/visa/mc get involved. Just like online poker was killed because of B&M interests. meh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by donkdowndonedied
my fucking sides ache, stop, oh my god
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmoney
I have a direct pay add-on for websites that is set-up for accepting Bitcoin payments for either digital downloads or placing website advertisements.
It is easy as shit to support bitcoins. The problem is that cmoney is talking about porn and recurring payments. Thats how the porn business works AFAIK. That is a whole different game. You can't just externally request bitcoins from a wallet. I have to have a wallet and send funds from it. THe only way this works with recurring payments is if the wallet is kept funded. So basically you'd end up with another wallet site, and just support recurring payments from it. Then the porn site would have to require you to use that speciifc wallet. I don't see that happening anytime soon.... Who is going to want to use a BTC wallet site because it supports porn sites ? It might be a million dollar idea down the road, but I think there are a lot more better opportunities at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DragonsQuote:
Originally Posted by cmoney
I have a direct pay add-on for websites that is set-up for accepting Bitcoin payments for either digital downloads or placing website advertisements.
Recurring billing is dying. Porn money now in pay per minute videos, phone, and webcam. BTW several sites are already using bitcoin for such features.Quote:
Originally Posted by donkdowndonediedIt is easy as shit to support bitcoins. The problem is that cmoney is talking about porn and recurring payments. Thats how the porn business works AFAIK. That is a whole different game. You can't just externally request bitcoins from a wallet. I have to have a wallet and send funds from it. THe only way this works with recurring payments is if the wallet is kept funded. So basically you'd end up with another wallet site, and just support recurring payments from it. Then the porn site would have to require you to use that speciifc wallet. I don't see that happening anytime soon.... Who is going to want to use a BTC wallet site because it supports porn sites ? It might be a million dollar idea down the road, but I think there are a lot more better opportunities at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Dragons
I disagree though that market prices are a result of manipulation (although I think they can be contributing and almost 100% certain that the unregulated markets are scamming users in numerous ways). The guys who post on the bitcoin forums are the same morons who got scammed by the matrix website craze 10 years ago. The average supporter of bitcoins has very little economic knowledged. Yes there are some great minds there but they are far and few between. The rise in bitcoins prices IMO has largely been to ignorant greed. The most recent spike seems to be related to it being spread into the asian market and being treated like a casino.
Even if bitoins did provide a use they have no unique advantage over many other crypto currencies and are seen inferior in numerous ways. I think their true value is at most 5 bucks a pop. Probably much less though as I feel they have no lasting appeal.
You are 100 percent right. There is also another big issue I thought of after I made the post.Quote:
Originally Posted by donkdowndonediedIt is easy as shit to support bitcoins. The problem is that cmoney is talking about porn and recurring payments. Thats how the porn business works AFAIK. That is a whole different game. You can't just externally request bitcoins from a wallet. I have to have a wallet and send funds from it. THe only way this works with recurring payments is if the wallet is kept funded. So basically you'd end up with another wallet site, and just support recurring payments from it. Then the porn site would have to require you to use that speciifc wallet. I don't see that happening anytime soon.... Who is going to want to use a BTC wallet site because it supports porn sites ? It might be a million dollar idea down the road, but I think there are a lot more better opportunities at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Dragons
I would say 80 percent of traffic sent to porn sites is via affiliates (other sites that promote the porn site) so you would also need to figure a way to pay them out if they made a sale. That would be a mess and I not sure how you would work around that. For example, affiliate A sends Joe Blow to fuckmeinass123.com and he pays with a Credit Card. The problem is that Affiliate A is signed up with an affiliate code that tracks a bitcoin sale. So you would probably actually need to integrate a bitcoin service with another processing company to make this work.
If the site ONLY took bitcoins that is another story, but the site owner would lose a shitload of sales for people that want to use mastercard/visa and other standard ways to pay.
Anyway, maybe some day but it would be a mess to sort out at the moment.
I agree with a lot of what you say. Speculation is driving prices. The transferring of assets. However you wish to frame it. I don't know this, but I think there is more reason to believe this than some weird market manipulation everyone talks about but can't explain except DDOS of exchanges = lowering of BTC values.Quote:
Originally Posted by BetCheckBet
Bitcoins obviously "provide a use". I would like you to expound on the above quote of yours. What are the other crypto currencies that are better ? And why? Any links to a thoughtful discussion on this matter would be appreciated. (and needed in this thread..)
I can't begin to fathom how you know what their "true value" is. Unlike a traditional currency, it is international in scope. Unlike traditional currency, BTC has this elastic nature. You can drop down to really low fractional amounts. That is why they could continue to inflate. So 1 bitcoin trades at $800, so you use .01 btc instead. it is just a matter of more and more services using them as payment.....
There are other crypto currencies popping up such as "litecoin"
It's not a mess, it's just an add-on service that is the bitcoin processor that can be selected the same as selecting paypal or visa, it just directs to a different checkout page.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmoneyYou are 100 percent right. There is also another big issue I thought of after I made the post.Quote:
Originally Posted by donkdowndonedied
I would say 80 percent of traffic sent to porn sites is via affiliates (other sites that promote the porn site) so you would also need to figure a way to pay them out if they made a sale. That would be a mess and I not sure how you would work around that. For example, affiliate A sends Joe Blow to fuckmeinass123.com and he pays with a Credit Card. The problem is that Affiliate A is signed up with an affiliate code that tracks a bitcoin sale. So you would probably actually need to integrate a bitcoin service with another processing company to make this work.
If the site ONLY took bitcoins that is another story, but the site owner would lose a shitload of sales for people that want to use mastercard/visa and other standard ways to pay.
Anyway, maybe some day but it would be a mess to sort out at the moment.
Oh and..
Quote:
Originally Posted by donkdowndonediedI agree with a lot of what you say. Speculation is driving prices. The transferring of assets. However you wish to frame it. I don't know this, but I think there is more reason to believe this than some weird market manipulation everyone talks about but can't explain except DDOS of exchanges = lowering of BTC values.Quote:
Originally Posted by BetCheckBet
Bitcoins obviously "provide a use". I would like you to expound on the above quote of yours. What are the other crypto currencies that are better ? And why? Any links to a thoughtful discussion on this matter would be appreciated. (and needed in this thread..)
I can't begin to fathom how you know what their "true value" is. Unlike traditional currency, BTC has this elastic nature. Unlike a traditional currency, it is international in scope. You can drop down to really low fractional amounts. That is why they could continue to inflate. So 1 bitcoin trades at $800, so you use .01 btc instead. it is just a matter of more and more services using them as payment.....
Its been caculated that bitcoins cost approximately 5 dollars to make. Now with more efficient computer set ups and higher difficulty levels that could change. Additonally it we calculate total value of bitcoin network based at 100m based off of 20 coins it would be about the same. Now calculating vale of bitcoin as a whole may not be so simple as calculating total value of bitcoins in circulation but its a start.
mtgox.com is now offline
Either they are doing this so called upgrade or shit hit the fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by kmksmkn
That they couldnt keep a web presence up during their upgrade more or less defines the level of sophistication behind this operation.
Well, BTC have to be distributed in some manner. Otherwise it would never work. Thats why someone showed up and thought there should be a big pool with a market cap and people buy from it. That view seems to come from someone with a traditional background and doesn't understand how distribution creates incentives to create services which creates a market. Just like most things.. things early to market are very very hard to overtake.Quote:
Originally Posted by BetCheckBet
So I read about litecoins since Corrigan mentioned them. They have 2 "advantages" that I saw. One is confirmation time is 20% of that of btc... but is that because superior network algorthms... or simply because their network currently has far far fewer nodes to propagate payments through? (lol page didnt explain that!) The other "advantage" is you can still get in on mining them early and the algorthm to create them requires memory and not all this specialized hardware. That is an advantage to some, but really all it seems like is someone trying to start up their own version of a crypto currency to get in on the market early. It doesn't really seem superior except it is more egalitarian in the distribution because GPUs/ASICs aren't as useful..... and maybe from a environmental perspective/electricity use.
If people want to stop mining BTC because it costs too much, then we still have the existing pool to trade with.
Still waiting to find a crypto currency that really is clearly superior to bitcoins....
SHITCOINS WILL PREVAIL THEY ARE KIND OF A BIG DEAL NOW
http://uberhumor.com/wp-content/uplo...04/gifs_17.gif
Stop acting like you have a clue. yea ,they could have a better landing page. LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatine
Obviously you can't just pack up a currency exchange and start it up on another server like a forum or something.. where a few missing posts or whatever is no big deal. No landing page... Gee, they must be incompetent, because even *you* could make a landing page, huh ?
Fucking idiot.
I would not expect sophistication in such a new unregulated market. It didn't even spawn from a legitimate business. We have banks using much less sophisticated technology. Your expectations are too high. The world is full of idiots.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonatine