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Thoughts? What side of this debate are you on? Personally I feel the flag and everything that goes along with it promotes racist undertones, at a minimum. It has no place flying over a state building. It represents the Civil War, which was a battle over the right to own slaves.
Thinking about starting up a store selling the flags since Amazon and Walmart are pulling them.
I always figured it was for red neck n-word haters. Besides that I really have no other opinions either good or bad.
If something offends someone you should try your best not to do that thing however people have rights as well.
I think the flag symbolizing slave ownership is absolute BUNK but rather it became a symbol because slave owners flew it. It was not a flag made to represent slave ownership, it evolved and became a symbol to their enemies. Then those racist folk decided to adopt it as well to represent their hatred.
So I understand some families respect it because it symbolized a fight against big government and some because they are racist and like the message it may send in that respect. But do not be fooled, the flag in no way was made and the civil war in NO way began because of slavery. I think far too many Americans fail to realize their own history with any great degree of accuracy.
This is a quote from civilwar.org which best sums up my point.
Quote:
The outbreak of the Civil War forever changed the future of the American nation. The war began as a struggle to preserve the Union, not a struggle to free the slaves, but many in the North and South felt that the conflict would ultimately decide both issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
I like this quote better: "The war had its origin in the fractious issue of slavery, especially the extension of slavery into the western territories.[N 1] After four years of combat, which left over 600,000 Union and Confederate soldiers dead and destroyed much of the South's infrastructure, the Confederacy collapsed and slavery was abolished. Then began the Reconstruction and the processes of restoring national unity and guaranteeing civil rights to the freed slaves."
I'll Godwin this thread up with a lazy analogy.
You could argue that the Nazi flag has a more nuanced meaning and context than simply being a symbol of racism and genocide, and you wouldn't be wrong. Even so, anybody hanging one up on their house or slapping the sticker on their truck is 99% of the time going to be some sort of white supremacist shitbag.
Two issues with the start of that quote, it is from Wikipedia/Media and secondly it is NOT accurate.
It is the lie we have been fed, the war started because the lower States did not want the man in their business, period no matter what it was. As mentioned slavery was perhaps one of those things but not the main or only reason, sorry.
That is why your wiki quote says "origin in" because they cannot flat out lie and say because of.
The united negro collage fund seems racists may as well rid of that to
It's weird how it all came cascading down this week. It was like a snowball. I think the United States has been pretty patient in allowing states to fly the actual symbol of open rebellion to the union for 150 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SrslySirius
I agree 100% with you and know the origin of that symbol is MUCH older and had nothing to do with what we associate it with today.
However if there was an Egyptian lineage that still walked the earth and used the symbol to honor it's original purpose should they simply roll over and ditch it? Perhaps yes because not worth the trouble lol but you get my point.
There are many GOOD southern people who view the flag with pride and NOT because it allowed them to own slaves. It varied State to State but somewhere around 25-26% of households owned a slave. Many men died fighting the Union who never owned a slave and it is their fight and sacrifice that those families honor by flying that flag.
Not fighting for them here just want to be accurate about what the civil war was really about. If we had more shows about the whole truth and not "my ancestor was a slave" stuff on TLC or PBS we wouldn't all just assume it was the focus.
On the flip side I completely understand how the flag offends and know people use it to do so.
The flag shouldn't fly anywhere other then some white trash meth addicts trailer
So in your opinion, what was the one main issue caused and solved by the Civil War?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
obv a racist, but is the tit hairy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikki
Really? I've lived in the south my whole life and never met one. Probably because...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
...this is exactly where I've seen the vast majority of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suicide King
Anyway, I'm no Civil War buff, but looking over some of the states' declaration of secession, it seems to have been (at least for them) all about slavery.
http://www.civilwar.org/education/hi...qf33?context=3
You can say slavery caused it, sure but it wasn't so much the slavery as much as the right to not allow the Union to tell them how to live.
The Union did not fight to free slaves but rather keep the Union together, slaves being set free was a biproduct.
So while you can say they did it to set slaves free it would be more accurate to say it was to force their will upon the South.
Not defending slavery at all, glad they lost of course but just trying to be more accurate.
Look at it this way, if the South said we like to eat our chunky soup with a spoon and the North said no you need to eat it with a fork. I very much doubt the North cared all that much about why they fought, more about using it as a reason to fight. The truth is the North had slaves too but because of failing industry after the war of independence they lost the taste for it because they didn't need it as much. The South got cotton gin and bang they still needed it.
Taking a moral high horse on an issue you once abused yourself simply because you don't need it anymore is a joke.
Didn't Bush want to free a bunch of people years ago, wasn't that a reason to go to war?
Can anyone here imagine a wealthy family with CLASS repping that obnoxious flag? The answer to that question is a resounding NO
If 999/1000 people think a green flag with a purple unicorn is a symbol of racism, then it's a symbol of racism. No matter how accurate that flag is or what it's original intentions were it's a symbol Of racism. As such it shouldn't be flying over any municipal building.
That said you want to put it in your front yard be my guest, it's your right to do so even if it makes you a complete asshole.
To be fair up until 2-3 years ago Ole Miss had "The Rebel" as the school mascot and that school is where all the 1%ers go in that state. It wasn't hard to see confederate flags or colors at an ole Miss game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypt
That said they did get ahead of the issue and changed the symbol to a bear or some shit.
The flag was designed as a symbol of racism:
http://mic.com/articles/121082/here-...ho-designed-it
golds gym got the worst of it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
Bush went to war because Iraq had WMDs (which they didn't have). It's ok if your civil war history is garbage, which it is, but the Iraq war was in your lifetime. Please consider taking your head out of your ass.
It is clear to me you missed my point, I know they didn't have WMD's. My point was Bush used an excuse to go to war to get what "he" wanted.
The Union used a real issue, yes but my point was any excuse and the South gave them one but could have easily have been over how to eat soup.
You will find most people outside of the USofA seem to recall history from around the world differently.
Did you know the US beat the English as well and Canada doesn't exist! Just ask a New Yorker who won in 1812.
SS is right, that flag of course wasn't even the official flag of the confederacy. It was designed by a white supremacist to perpetuate white supremacy, if not slavery.....it was reflown in SC in reaction to the civil rights movement in 1962......racism runs deep in the South.....have posted about this, the reps southern strategy changed white southerners from dems to reps.....taking that down won't change much but is a step in the right direction.....
I think Reno nailed it. ^
Boy, I must have missed what ever sparked this debate recently.
Has it really been that slow of a news week? There really is no issue.
For the record, Charleston is like one of the nicest cities ive ever been to in the South. Really beautiful homes, beaches, and tennis/golf resorts. The people were really friendly and I didnt see any outward racism towards black people where I was staying. We rented out a beach home for a month in the Isle of Palms resort. Would really advise people to check it out if youre looking for a chill spot.
The house was literally right on the beach:
Maybe Tom clarifies or amends this statement later in the thread. Regardless, the problem with his analysis is that it is incorrect. Slavery was absolutely THE reason the civil war occurred. Not emancipation certainly (a by-product of the war and the Union victory) but to keep slavery legal and therefore, in the minds of southerners, protect the southern slave-dependent economy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
Slavery dominated the national debate basically from the Louisiana Purchase forward until Lincoln's election in 1860. Lincoln was elected on Nov 6th and South Carolina voted to secede on Dec 20th, and it wasn't because they didn't want "the man" in their business. It was because the wrongfully believed Lincoln was an abolitionist who would destroy the south's way of life.
poteto potatoQuote:
Originally Posted by tony bagadonutsMaybe Tom clarifies or amends this statement later in the thread. Regardless, the problem with his analysis is that it is incorrect. Slavery was absolutely THE reason the civil war occurred. Not emancipation certainly (a by-product of the war and the Union victory) but to keep slavery legal and therefore, in the minds of southerners, protect the southern slave-dependent economy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
Slavery dominated the national debate basically from the Louisiana Purchase forward until Lincoln's election in 1860. Lincoln was elected on Nov 6th and South Carolina voted to secede on Dec 20th, and it wasn't because they didn't want "the man" in their business. It was because the wrongfully believed Lincoln was an abolitionist who would destroy the south's way of life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony bagadonutsMaybe Tom clarifies or amends this statement later in the thread. Regardless, the problem with his analysis is that it is incorrect. Slavery was absolutely THE reason the civil war occurred. Not emancipation certainly (a by-product of the war and the Union victory) but to keep slavery legal and therefore, in the minds of southerners, protect the southern slave-dependent economy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
Slavery dominated the national debate basically from the Louisiana Purchase forward until Lincoln's election in 1860. Lincoln was elected on Nov 6th and South Carolina voted to secede on Dec 20th, and it wasn't because they didn't want "the man" in their business. It was because the wrongfully believed Lincoln was an abolitionist who would destroy the south's way of life.
My family fought under Sherman to keep the Union whole, not for human rights issues. I'm glad it all worked out because the argument had existed since the days of the Revolution and was a sticking point of the southern States to agree to the rebellion in the first place. Just to be clear, I don't see any reason for that flag to fly anywhere but in a museum.
so 9 people get basically executed at point blank range in a vicious rampage style shooting spree
and the hottest talking point and discussion in the news is about a stupid fucking flag
this country deserves to get invaded and/or bitchslapped
bunch of spineless. politically correct pussies with their heads up their asses
I am giving less and less of a fuck lately
just gonna grab a cocktail, my lawn-chair and a fat spleef....kick back, and watch the entire clusterfuck implode
the next 20 years or so should be awesome watching this previously great country crash and burn
This is all true and correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyde
This idiotic confederate flag debate is the biggest red herring that I can remember. The right doesn't want to talk about guns and the left is all over shit like statues being spray painted.
Any 'heritage, not hate' argument has been dead for years, and anyone with a moderately functioning brain knows that people who fly it are either unapologetic racists or inbred white trash who don't know better.
I like Charleston but it's a comically racist city. Great fun though, partying in the downtown market area where slaves were bought/sold.
Should the Confederate Flag be banned? No, let people be racist assholes if they want to.
Should the Confederate Flag be banned from government buildings? Yes, dear god yes. Are you fucking insane?
Indeed, countries often split on the issue of how to eat soup, which is JUST as important as whether human beings are human beings, or just property.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom
You know who thinks the war was about slaves? The slaves. Also, the slave owners. Also, those opposing slavery.
"They're trying to tell us how to live (with respect to slavery)!!!"
"They are trying to tell us what to do (on the issue of whether we can own dark skins as if they weren't even human and make them work for us for no pay, no rights, and we can pretty much do whatever we want with them)!"