Escorted out... options?

I was playing blackjack, bouncing back and forth between 3 properties all owned by the same company. I was up about $2400 for the day, spreading $25 to $200 when security approached me on my way into the pit. They greeted me with "You're _____ ______, right?", I say yes. The pit boss says "Counting cards isn't illegal, but it's not good business, and I don't want your business any more. So here's whats going to happen. We're going to go to the cashier and cash out your chips... *He looks at another security guy and asks "He has chips, right?" .. "yes, he has chips."... okay, you'll cash out your chips, you'll be escorted to the front door, you'll leave and you won't come back."

I say "Okay", we walk to the cage, I cash out, they lead me to the door. As we approach the door a security guard steps in front of me and says "First, we need you to step into this security office over here.". I say "No, I'd like to just leave through the front doors", he insists, I say "No, I would really just prefer to leave through those doors". He looks at another guy, who is in street clothes, and says "He won't go in the office.", street clothes says "Thats fine, he can leave, we know who he is now."...

Then he asks to see my players card, I say no. Asks for some ID, I say no. Says he needs to take my picture, I say no. He is getting clearly agitated at me standing my ground and finally gives up. He says "You are being 86'd from the property, do you understand?" I say "No."... he says "Fine. Leave and don't come back. Don't go to *The other two properties* or the Chevron down the street." and I walk out.


Given the way this played out, I wasn't officially trespassed. I'm content to not play blackjack at these casinos any more. But would I be fine returning in a month or so and just camping out in the poker room? I can leave my players card behind and just grind the poker tables.

What am I clear to do, and not do, at this point?

I'm surprised you just got 86'ed outright instead of them saying you must go for the evening and aren't allowed to play BJ again on their properties or we will ban you. You must have done something that was a dead giveaway that you were counting.

As for what to do now I would call the brand of casino up and tell them that you were kicked out for allegedly counting. If they ask you anything about it just say you have no comment but it's something that isn't illegal even the pitboss that barred you said it wasn't and you are curious if you can still play poker on their properties. Tell them you have heard of similar stories of people playing BJ and asked to leave but they weren't permanently banned from stepping foot on the property and you agree not to play BJ again there.

Be 100% professional and polite when you call them and maybe they will allow you back just not to play blackjack.

What BeerAndPoker said is generally correct.

First off, was this in Wendover, NV? I ask because I know you're in Utah, and that's a frequent destination of Utah residents.

If it was, then you made a mistake trying to count there. They are HIGHLY sensitive to counting in those casinos, and will pretty much put the word out on you to the entire city once you're caught!

Regardless, you did the right thing refusing a "backroom". While counters being beat up is rare these days, it's always wise to resist being forced out of public view, for obvious reasons.

Unfortunately, you were indeed 86'd, and they do not need to give you any paperwork or documentation to state so. They CAN arrest you if you return. They DO have your picture from the security camera, even if you refused to let them take it.

I had a similar incident at a certain property in 2002. I handled it very similar to how you did. They did not try to backroom me, but they did attempt to demand ID, which I refused to give. When they asked why I wouldn't provide it, I replied, "Because it's my right not to, but I'll leave right now if you want."

They were surprised, but accepted that answer.

Then they pulled out a Polaroid camera (lol 2002), and snapped a quick picture of me. I did not attempt to throw my hands in front of my face, because I was surrounded by guards, and did not want that sudden motion confused as any attempt to throw a punch. I figured they had my picture from security cameras anyway.

They never got my ID or name. Given that I look considerably different now compared to 15 years ago, I am not worried about visiting the property, as there is very little chance I would ever be recognized.

They then told me I was 86'd from the property. I asked if they would at least let me go get my companions who were also playing in the casino. Surprisingly, they said yes, and escorted me over to get them. We all walked out together. Interestingly, one of my friends (who was NOT counting, and not even playing) was also 86'd, though he only found this out years later when applying for a player's card. They decided to rescind it, though, and let him in.

You should call the poker room manager and explain everything. Ask if he can help you undo the 86 from the property, and that you simply want to come back and play poker, and will never play blackjack again there. Of course, you'll have to provide your name at that point, but that's basically your only avenue back into the poker room there.

GL

Thanks, Druff and Beer.

That is what I figured was the case but in reading over some blackjack forums I saw more than a few people say you have to either acknowledge that you understand you're being 86'd or trespassed, or you have to sign paperwork saying the same. I also read that, while the same company owns all 3 casinos (Yes, in Wendover), they can't 86 you from all of the properties at once, they have to do it at each location individually. They'll have me and my picture on file so I wouldn't even get a hand in I'm sure, but Im legally not 86'd from those casinos... but all of that is just from random people posting on blackjack forums and not advice I was about to take without checking further.

I was going to send an email to the poker room manager to see what my options were so I could attempt to get it cleared up, as well as have it in writing for when I do.

Thanks.

When I was 86'd from the property I was talking about in my previous post, they did not have me sign anything, nor did they ask me to say I understood. They made a short statement to me that I was not allowed to return to that property and others they owned, and I was escorted out.

As I said, they did not have my name, so after enough years passed (with my looks changing enough), I felt safe to return (but I never played blackjack there again). My situation was not in Wendover, btw.

So yes, I believe you are legally 86'd. You also aren't going to get anywhere with the police by saying, "I didn't say I understood or acknowledged this." Wendover is a small town, and they aren't going to care about technicalities, even if you are legally correct (which I'm not even sure you are).

You are probably better off calling the poker room manager. E-mail doesn't help much in situations like these, as you will be seen more as a headache and the manager will probably be more tempted to just brush you off. It's a lot harder to say no to a human being on the other end of the phone. This is the same reason I always suggest calling in customer service complaints over writing letters/emails. I'm batting almost 1.000 when dealing directly on the phone (or in person) with customer service issues, but much lower than that when I've written letters/emails.

damn you can't even go to the fucking Chevron down the street? What if you just want to go in to get one of those sandwiches that they have?