Ontario: Landlord increasing parking fees.

Yes I know... Two landlord questions on here in one day... Pretty sure I have zero recourse but figured I'd ask for a few opinions.

Ontario has rent control which means that normally a landlord can't increase rent more than a few percentage points a year. That being said there is nothing to my knowledge controlling parking. On Friday we received notice that parking fees have been increased. That is fine because I get they can't stay flat forever. That being said everyone in building was given a notice (no explanation) that parking was going up from 50$ to 85$ and would commence in 40 days... Ends up being an extra 400 a year. 50 bucks pretty standard in my area. For instance heated enclosed residential parking lots in my area go from 50-60$. Parking in my building isn't even indoors... So it feels pretty dirty what management is doing and basically tenants have no options as street parking sucks here.

I've spoken to the super who is pretty pissed off himself and encouraged me to voice concerns with management which I will. All that being said we were likely going to move in the next few months but I still feel what they are doing is unfair to the tenants who have to stay here. While my building is not low income it's certainly not high income and this change will affect some students, elderly, or struggling families.

Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

Yes I know... Two landlord questions on here in one day... Pretty sure I have zero recourse but figured I'd ask for a few opinions.

Ontario has rent control which means that normally a landlord can't increase rent more than a few percentage points a year. That being said there is nothing to my knowledge controlling parking. On Friday we received notice that parking fees have been increased. That is fine because I get they can't stay flat forever. That being said everyone in building was given a notice (no explanation) that parking was going up from 50$ to 85$ and would commence in 40 days... Ends up being an extra 400 a year. 50 bucks pretty standard in my area. For instance heated enclosed residential parking lots in my area go from 50-60$. Parking in my building isn't even indoors... So it feels pretty dirty what management is doing and basically tenants have no options as street parking sucks here.

I've spoken to the super who is pretty pissed off himself and encouraged me to voice concerns with management which I will. All that being said we were likely going to move in the next few months but I still feel what they are doing is unfair to the tenants who have to stay here. While my building is not low income it's certainly not high income and this change will affect some students, elderly, or struggling families.

Any thoughts?

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Have you also looked at your rent contract? Is your lease for only the living premises, or does it include one/two parking spaces? Have you been billed for your rent and parking separately? Do you have a separate contract for the parking?

It does sound like a backdoor rent increase, particularly if the parking area has not been maintained (swept clean regularly, re-paved, new striping, no surveillance). It's hard to imagine a 70% increase being justified based on costs associated with operating the parking area.

My gut reaction is if the parking is provided by the building owner and is below the rental building or within a fenced in area that includes the building, it would be part of your rental, hence rent control should apply.

Again, the rent control regulations are most probably online now (thank the internet for leveling the playing field in the landlord v renter game), so try searching you local ordinances to see if the rent controls apply here.

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Originally Posted by GrenadaRoger

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

Yes I know... Two landlord questions on here in one day... Pretty sure I have zero recourse but figured I'd ask for a few opinions.

Ontario has rent control which means that normally a landlord can't increase rent more than a few percentage points a year. That being said there is nothing to my knowledge controlling parking. On Friday we received notice that parking fees have been increased. That is fine because I get they can't stay flat forever. That being said everyone in building was given a notice (no explanation) that parking was going up from 50$ to 85$ and would commence in 40 days... Ends up being an extra 400 a year. 50 bucks pretty standard in my area. For instance heated enclosed residential parking lots in my area go from 50-60$. Parking in my building isn't even indoors... So it feels pretty dirty what management is doing and basically tenants have no options as street parking sucks here.

I've spoken to the super who is pretty pissed off himself and encouraged me to voice concerns with management which I will. All that being said we were likely going to move in the next few months but I still feel what they are doing is unfair to the tenants who have to stay here. While my building is not low income it's certainly not high income and this change will affect some students, elderly, or struggling families.

Any thoughts?

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Have you also looked at your rent contract? Is your lease for only the living premises, or does it include one/two parking spaces? Have you been billed for your rent and parking separately? Do you have a separate contract for the parking?

It does sound like a backdoor rent increase, particularly if the parking area has not been maintained (swept clean regularly, re-paved, new striping, no surveillance). It's hard to imagine a 70% increase being justified based on costs associated with operating the parking area.

My gut reaction is if the parking is provided by the building owner and is below the rental building or within a fenced in area that includes the building, it would be part of your rental, hence rent control should apply.

Again, the rent control regulations are most probably online now (thank the internet for leveling the playing field in the landlord v renter game), so try searching you local ordinances to see if the rent controls apply here.

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Lease expired years ago so we are on month to month. Lease says 50bucks for parking but also states "unless notified otherwise" next to the 50bucks. In Ontario most rental agreements have parking separate from rent.

I spent about an hour searching online yesterday but can't seem to find anything around parking rules. I think its a clever way to get around rent control. I've been looking into city ordinances as well but can't find anything there either. As far as I can tell landlords can raise parking to whatever they like.

Sure it sucks, but it's $35/month. That's less than one meal out. I can't imagine this altering my life. Is it really thread worthy?

Is the parking fee mandatory?

If it is, then they are probably doing something illegal. Otherwise they could charge $600 for parking, while keeping the rent at controlled levels.

However, if you have the option to decline parking, and thus avoid the fee, then this is probably legal. I agree it's sneaky and is contrary to the concept of rent control, but it can be considered an "extra service" and thus not controllable. Similarly, they could have laundry machines for $10 per wash and $10 per dry, and again you couldn't do anything about it.

found by googling--you can probably find better sources

http://www.ontariotenants.ca/law/law.phtml#Q18

Q18: What about other "deposits" or "fees"?

A18: Additional fees or deposits are illegal, except "last month's rent" and those listed below:

Charges that are allowed Under Regulation 516/06, Section 17, include payment for additional keys, remote entry devices or cards requested by the tenant, not greater than their direct costs, and refundable key/card deposits not greater than their direct costs. Be sure to get a receipt for this so that when you return these cards or keys when you are moving out, it will be easier to get your deposit for these back.

Where the tenant has provided a cheque that bounced due to insufficient funds in the account, the landlord may not charge more than any NSF charge the landlord had to pay to the financial institution plus up to an additional $20 "administrative charge".

A charge not exceeding $250 for transferring between units, at the request of the tenant.

Landlords and their employees are breaking the law if they demand that you buy furniture, carpeting or draperies in an apartment, or demand that you pay painting fees, damage deposits, locker or parking space registration fees, finder's fees, or application or registration fees to get the apartment.

If parking or a locker are not included in the rent, though they can not charge you a registration fee for getting them, they can charge you a monthly fee for those services.




So call/email a local tenant association...this thing has probably come up several times before and they know the answer.

I would figure these separate charges are subject to rent control too, as a reading of the Ontario Rent control laws talks about rental complexes, not just rental units...and thus the parking, being part of the rental complex, is subject to controls (annuals increase of 2.5% when non-cost based)

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Originally Posted by jsearles22

Sure it sucks, but it's $35/month. That's less than one meal out. I can't imagine this altering my life. Is it really thread worthy?

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It's only $20 in real money.

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Is the parking fee mandatory?

If it is, then they are probably doing something illegal. Otherwise they could charge $600 for parking, while keeping the rent at controlled levels.

However, if you have the option to decline parking, and thus avoid the fee, then this is probably legal. I agree it's sneaky and is contrary to the concept of rent control, but it can be considered an "extra service" and thus not controllable. Similarly, they could have laundry machines for $10 per wash and $10 per dry, and again you couldn't do anything about it.

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Update.

Technically Ontario does not have rent control. It has rent increase guidelines for how much you can raise each year. My argument is that parking should fit under this. I spoke to property management and they claim it doesn't and I was wrong.

Turns out I'm right. Any service from landlord pretty much counts as rent in Ontario. So parking fees can only be raises at same rate as rent. I spoke to landlord and tenant board twice who absolutely confirmed this. Additionally regardless of what lease says its illegal to raise the price outside of this range. I've informed management of this and waiting to hear back. I think management is ignorant in this case rather than scummy. I think if they don't budge I file a complaint with the board.

Personally I hate having to deal with this but really don't like idea of just allowing landlord to engage in illegal practices. My hope is he backs down on increase and that will be the end of it.

Typing from phone otherwise would quote legislation.

Also to answer druff: parking is optional service but still coveredin law.

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

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Originally Posted by Dan Druff

Is the parking fee mandatory?

If it is, then they are probably doing something illegal. Otherwise they could charge $600 for parking, while keeping the rent at controlled levels.

However, if you have the option to decline parking, and thus avoid the fee, then this is probably legal. I agree it's sneaky and is contrary to the concept of rent control, but it can be considered an "extra service" and thus not controllable. Similarly, they could have laundry machines for $10 per wash and $10 per dry, and again you couldn't do anything about it.

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Update.

Technically Ontario does not have rent control. It has rent increase guidelines for how much you can raise each year. My argument is that parking should fit under this. I spoke to property management and they claim it doesn't and I was wrong.

Turns out I'm right. Any service from landlord pretty much counts as rent in Ontario. So parking fees can only be raises at same rate as rent. I spoke to landlord and tenant board twice who absolutely confirmed this. Additionally regardless of what lease says its illegal to raise the price outside of this range. I've informed management of this and waiting to hear back. I think management is ignorant in this case rather than scummy. I think if they don't budge I file a complaint with the board.

Personally I hate having to deal with this but really don't like idea of just allowing landlord to engage in illegal practices. My hope is he backs down on increase and that will be the end of it.

Typing from phone otherwise would quote legislation.

Also to answer druff: parking is optional service but still coveredin law.

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nice...but there may be an exemption for your landlord...the Rent Control act for Ontario applies only to buildings put up and occupied prior to May 1991 I believe--read the act, it's posted online...

anyway, your landlord may not be aware of that exception, play the Rent Control card and let them find out about the exemption---you can search the real estate sales/property listings to see when your complex was built.

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Originally Posted by GrenadaRoger

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

Update.

Technically Ontario does not have rent control. It has rent increase guidelines for how much you can raise each year. My argument is that parking should fit under this. I spoke to property management and they claim it doesn't and I was wrong.

Turns out I'm right. Any service from landlord pretty much counts as rent in Ontario. So parking fees can only be raises at same rate as rent. I spoke to landlord and tenant board twice who absolutely confirmed this. Additionally regardless of what lease says its illegal to raise the price outside of this range. I've informed management of this and waiting to hear back. I think management is ignorant in this case rather than scummy. I think if they don't budge I file a complaint with the board.

Personally I hate having to deal with this but really don't like idea of just allowing landlord to engage in illegal practices. My hope is he backs down on increase and that will be the end of it.

Typing from phone otherwise would quote legislation.

Also to answer druff: parking is optional service but still coveredin law.

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nice...but there may be an exemption for your landlord...the Rent Control act for Ontario applies only to buildings put up and occupied prior to May 1991 I believe--read the act, it's posted online...

anyway, your landlord may not be aware of that exception, play the Rent Control card and let them find out about the exemption---you can search the real estate sales/property listings to see when your complex was built.

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I'm safe (pre 1991). Spent a lot of time reading this stuff in past week. Even found a BC court case that supports my argument (different province but essentially same rules) http://tenants.bc.ca/wp-content/uplo...-Agreement.pdf

I basically asked the L&T Board if there is any situation where he could legally jack prices up like this and they couldn't figure it out. When I spoke to management they were convinced that parking was not rent and was instead an extra service. Didn't make sense to me because if it wasn't controlled you could easily just start offering all sorts of services and jack up the price to get around rent controls or force evict an undesired tenant.

Below is the clause from tenant act which matters most (the act also supersedes anything in a written lease so management is pretty screwed here) ...

"rent" includes the amount of any consideration paid or given or required to be paid or given by or on behalf of a tenant to a landlord or the landlord's agent for the right to occupy a rental unit and for any services and facilities and any privilege, accommodation or thing that the landlord provides for the tenant in respect of the occupancy of the rental unit, whether or not a separate charge is made for services and facilities or for the privilege, accommodation or thing, but "rent" does not include,

(a) an amount paid by a tenant to a landlord to reimburse the landlord for property taxes paid by the landlord with respect to a mobile home or a land lease home owned by a tenant, or

(b) an amount that a landlord charges a tenant of a rental unit in a care home for care services or meals;

Is this in Toronto or some place I didn't know existed?

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

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Originally Posted by GrenadaRoger

nice...but there may be an exemption for your landlord...the Rent Control act for Ontario applies only to buildings put up and occupied prior to May 1991 I believe--read the act, it's posted online...

anyway, your landlord may not be aware of that exception, play the Rent Control card and let them find out about the exemption---you can search the real estate sales/property listings to see when your complex was built.

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I'm safe (pre 1991). Spent a lot of time reading this stuff in past week. Even found a BC court case that supports my argument (different province but essentially same rules) http://tenants.bc.ca/wp-content/uplo...-Agreement.pdf

I basically asked the L&T Board if there is any situation where he could legally jack prices up like this and they couldn't figure it out. When I spoke to management they were convinced that parking was not rent and was instead an extra service. Didn't make sense to me because if it wasn't controlled you could easily just start offering all sorts of services and jack up the price to get around rent controls or force evict an undesired tenant.

Below is the clause from tenant act which matters most (the act also supersedes anything in a written lease so management is pretty screwed here) ...

"rent" includes the amount of any consideration paid or given or required to be paid or given by or on behalf of a tenant to a landlord or the landlord's agent for the right to occupy a rental unit and for any services and facilities and any privilege, accommodation or thing that the landlord provides for the tenant in respect of the occupancy of the rental unit, whether or not a separate charge is made for services and facilities or for the privilege, accommodation or thing, but "rent" does not include,

(a) an amount paid by a tenant to a landlord to reimburse the landlord for property taxes paid by the landlord with respect to a mobile home or a land lease home owned by a tenant, or

(b) an amount that a landlord charges a tenant of a rental unit in a care home for care services or meals;

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OUTSTANDING!!! You owned da landlord!!




and you are right, landlords/property management firms do not know the law per my personal experience. I once had a landlord try to retroactively increase my office rent on a month-to-month lease...in California, per the commercial code, on a month to month lease rent increases can not be retroactive, and require a 30 advance notice. I had to email him the code

Not done yet. Property management has not gotten back to me since I told them this morning at 9am they were wrong, cited the tenant act, and encouraged them to contact landlord and tenant board. They stand to lose out on thousands of dollars per year (for one single building) by not being able to charge illegal fees so I imagine they are going to do all they can to try and get this to pass. That being said I feel pretty confident from reading the tenant act, the BC court ruling, and speaking to the Ontario Landlord and Tennant Board that they will only be wasting their time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLf9q36UsBk

The fight is on!

Met with the property manager face to face today. Explained my points and I felt very sure that parking constitutes rent and is limited by rent increases. He disagreed. He claimed it is "a grey area" and discounted opinions provided by the board and my interpretation of the residential tenant act. That being said he struggled to provide any alternative interpretations. He seemed more focused on whether the 35 dollars increase was fair and that myself and girlfriend had it good the past few years. He ppent some time discussing the struggling rental market to try gain sympathy with me. I made it very clear I was not interested in debating the fairness and was focused on the legality instead. I got the feeling he was willing to lower the price but we never got there because I made it clear he is only entitled to a 1.00$ increase nine months from now.

The conversation was very civil and both sides admitted we were otherwise happy with each other (admitted we are model tenants). It ended with me saying I would be following up with landlord and tenant board to file a complaint. He wished me luck and stated he has never lost a case with them. Not sure if this is true but I will take that as a challenge. I'm actually not stressed out at all and kinda excited to file the complaint and experience first hand how the system works. Already learned tons about rental laws in the past week.

I get why he didn't back down to me though. He has numerous buildings and the thought that what he could be doing is illegal would fuck over his business. I think he is choosing to try and believe what he is doing is legal rather than consider the possibility it is not, hence why he was so dismissive of my points. If I am right I almost feel bad for him, almost, I feel worse for all the tenants who have been illegally charged...

Will file complaint tomorrow with board and see how it goes. Updates to follow...

I can't believe you're spending all this time and energy over $35 a month especially since you are leaving soon anyway. If I didn't respect you as a poster I'd be saying tight life.

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

It ended with me saying I would be following up with landlord and tenant board to file a complaint. He wished me luck and stated he has never lost a case with them.

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Could they be corruptible? Sounds like he may have some sort of relationship with them.

Are they elected officials? If so, maybe let your local paper know about it to apply some heat.

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Originally Posted by Pooh

I can't believe you're spending all this time and energy over $35 a month especially since you are leaving soon anyway. If I didn't respect you as a poster I'd be saying tight life.

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Principle is a thing.

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Originally Posted by Pooh

I can't believe you're spending all this time and energy over $35 a month especially since you are leaving soon anyway. If I didn't respect you as a poster I'd be saying tight life.

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I normally take this stance too Pooh. But for once I can actually sympathize with Druff on this. What the landlord is doing is illegal. On top of that there are many people who will be adversely affected by this. These parking charges in this building alone will give him an extra 6-8k$ a year. It actually makes me feel good to think that I'd be helping others out. That being said I'll be filing an individual complaint for now. There are class action type complaints but don't feel the need for this at this time.

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Originally Posted by SrslySirius

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

It ended with me saying I would be following up with landlord and tenant board to file a complaint. He wished me luck and stated he has never lost a case with them.

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Could they be corruptible? Sounds like he may have some sort of relationship with them.

Are they elected officials? If so, maybe let your local paper know about it to apply some heat.

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Its possible. But I doubt it. The board is across the province and not based here. I feel like my case is a slam dunk and not sure how they could rule any other way. I got the impression from management like they were hoping I'd just roll over and take it like everyone else who doesn't know any better. Hence why he tried to gain sympathy and minimize the size of increase.

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

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Originally Posted by Pooh

I can't believe you're spending all this time and energy over $35 a month especially since you are leaving soon anyway. If I didn't respect you as a poster I'd be saying tight life.

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I normally take this stance too Pooh. But for once I can actually sympathize with Druff on this. What the landlord is doing is illegal. On top of that there are many people who will be adversely affected by this. These parking charges in this building alone will give him an extra 6-8k$ a year. It actually makes me feel good to think that I'd be helping others out. That being said I'll be filing an individual complaint for now. There are class action type complaints but don't feel the need for this at this time.

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Class action lawyers get a bum rap, but this is why they serve a useful purpose. A lot of people share this outlook, where they can't be bothered to put a fight for a small sum of money. That makes it easy for companies to screw a large number of people for a huge amount of money and get away with it. And if nobody was standing up to them, they'd do it even more.

Anyone that keeps that in check is doing a good deed.

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Originally Posted by SrslySirius

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Originally Posted by BetCheckBet

I normally take this stance too Pooh. But for once I can actually sympathize with Druff on this. What the landlord is doing is illegal. On top of that there are many people who will be adversely affected by this. These parking charges in this building alone will give him an extra 6-8k$ a year. It actually makes me feel good to think that I'd be helping others out. That being said I'll be filing an individual complaint for now. There are class action type complaints but don't feel the need for this at this time.

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Class action lawyers get a bum rap, but this is why they serve a useful purpose. A lot of people share this outlook, where they can't be bothered to put a fight for a small sum of money. That makes it easy for companies to screw a large number of people for a huge amount of money and get away with it. And if nobody was standing up to them, they'd do it even more.

Anyone that keeps that in check is doing a good deed.

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It's actually not a class action lawsuit. It's some sort of mass complaint numerous tenants can do in the building together. I'm not quite sure how it works. The Board briefly told me about it the other day when I asked how to proceed if the landlord doesn't;t back down.