IS SEALS WITH CLUBS DONKDOWN??? (Update: Micon charged with a felony in Nevada)

[Sanlmar]

I don't support overburdensome regulation of online poker sites.

There needs to be regulation which provides a fair game, punishes cheaters (both players and operators), and provides assurance to customers that the money being held is actually there.

Short of this, we will have more Full Tilts and UBs, and the perpetrators will repeatedly get away with it.

The fact that so many of the major poker sites turned out to be thieves/cheaters shows that the 1999-2011 model of self-regulation/free-market-regulation was not working.

I see. You like that finely tuned efficient form of governemt regulation. The kind that adjusts quickly to market forces and changing conditions.

You sound like our utopian friend in Antigua now. Grow up. That is not how governemt works.

[4Dragons]

Government regulation is almost never the answer Druff.

The irony of you posting almost simultaneously both sides of the regulation argument here and in the net neutrality thread.

If you think regulating the online poker industry is necessary then at the very least the taxpayer should not foot the bill. The poker sites should fund that oversight.

Then imagine what kinda rake would be necessary to pay for the inevitable bloated beaurocracy.

This ship sailed long ago, but early on a site should have differentiated themselves by advertising that they had retained a big ten accounting firm and that their books were transparent.

The free market that was poker failed miserably. They gave government the excuse to inject themselves. They were punished and now it doesn't exist. Likely never will. Not really.

I promise you that if your wish for legislated poker in California comes to pass it will be an epic fail. It is impossible for free enterprise of this sort to coexist with government. At the very least they will tax the ever lovin shit out of it to the point of being extremely -EV.

Did you buy a California lottery ticket today, Druff?

There is no reason on gods green earth PokerStars - a publicly traded company with open accounting - shouldn't be able to launch today. Except that political agendas & political greed are involved.

Gotta protect the children, right? Fuck that. There is no reason kids shouldn't learn about losing and get their noses bloodied. Valuable life lessons. If the parents can't monitor their children (or are simply not present) and coach them about life and restrict their activities - then chaulk it up to social Darwinism at work and deal the next hand.

oy yoy yay oi yoy. The reason gambling is regulated to the extent that it is, is because of organized crime. Mobsters. People that kill you for owing them $1000 Alex. Final Jeapordy braj, you just failed. The online thing and protecting the children is a new one to be sure, but I can't count how many minors I knew that had Stars' accounts. I mean, they all needed a way to get that money offline.. but I digress.

My issue with it is that the regulation creates such a high barrier to entry that the little guy cannot ever start a business in the category. That is the major fuckup in the system. It rewards those who already have, and keeps out anybody who would love to run a legit business. Instead we now just have corporatized mobsters.

[Muck Ficon]

Lol. I swear his nose keeps getting bigger and more crooked. That shit-eating grin is priceless.

[4BET]

Government regulation is almost never the answer Druff.

The irony of you posting almost simultaneously both sides of the regulation argument here and in the net neutrality thread.

If you think regulating the online poker industry is necessary then at the very least the taxpayer should not foot the bill. The poker sites should fund that oversight.

Then imagine what kinda rake would be necessary to pay for the inevitable bloated beaurocracy.

This ship sailed long ago, but early on a site should have differentiated themselves by advertising that they had retained a big ten accounting firm and that their books were transparent.

The free market that was poker failed miserably. They gave government the excuse to inject themselves. They were punished and now it doesn't exist. Likely never will. Not really.

I promise you that if your wish for legislated poker in California comes to pass it will be an epic fail. It is impossible for free enterprise of this sort to coexist with government. At the very least they will tax the ever lovin shit out of it to the point of being extremely -EV.

Did you buy a California lottery ticket today, Druff?

There is no reason on gods green earth PokerStars - a publicly traded company with open accounting - shouldn't be able to launch today. Except that political agendas & political greed are involved.

Gotta protect the children, right? Fuck that. There is no reason kids shouldn't learn about losing and get their noses bloodied. Valuable life lessons. If the parents can't monitor their children (or are simply not present) and coach them about life and restrict their activities - then chaulk it up to social Darwinism at work and deal the next hand.

oy yoy yay oi yoy. The reason gambling is regulated to the extent that it is, is because of organized crime. Mobsters. People that kill you for owing them $1000 Alex. Final Jeapordy braj, you just failed. The online thing and protecting the children is a new one to be sure, but I can't count how many minors I knew that had Stars' accounts. I mean, they all needed a way to get that money offline.. but I digress.

My issue with it is that the regulation creates such a high barrier to entry that the little guy cannot ever start a business in the category. That is the major fuckup in the system. It rewards those who already have, and keeps out anybody who would love to run a legit business. Instead we now just have corporatized mobsters.

Spare us the argument that kids play online poker, Kids can buy bath salts, pills, drugs etc online, Bet horses on tvg etc, I am firing on the horses right now, They NEVER verified my age, Point is fucking parents need to keep a eye on what their kids are doing not the government. The argument kids will play online poker is a very weak one at best.

[smithbk]

Government regulation is almost never the answer Druff.

The irony of you posting almost simultaneously both sides of the regulation argument here and in the net neutrality thread.

If you think regulating the online poker industry is necessary then at the very least the taxpayer should not foot the bill. The poker sites should fund that oversight.

Then imagine what kinda rake would be necessary to pay for the inevitable bloated beaurocracy.

This ship sailed long ago, but early on a site should have differentiated themselves by advertising that they had retained a big ten accounting firm and that their books were transparent.

The free market that was poker failed miserably. They were punished and now it doesn't exist.

I promise you that if your wish for legislated poker in California comes to pass it will be an epic fail. It is impossible for free enterprise of this sort to coexist with government. At the very least they will tax the ever lovin shit out of it to the point of being extremely -EV.

Did you buy a California lottery ticket today, Druff?

There is no reason on gods green earth PokerStars - a publicly traded company with open accounting - shouldn't be able to launch today. Except that political agendas & political greed are involved.

Gotta protect the children, right? Fuck that. There is no reason kids shouldn't learn about losing and get their noses bloodied. Valuable life lessons. If the parents can't monitor their children (or are simply not present) and coach them about life and restrict their activities - then chaulk it up to social Darwinism at work and deal the next hand.

I must be a bit too obstinate for my own good. I don't see how online poker is illegal. So, I get what Druff is saying: it's gaming - if it's not regulated, it's not legal. Oh, I understand the DOJ busted it up. And I see that the UIGEA leads us in that direction. But that Act never said online poker was illegal. It was just assumed that the Wire Act did. But of course, it doesn't after all. (http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanva...rnet-gambling/)

Anyhoo, that gets me to thinking about Fantasy Sports. This, of course, has an interesting carve-out in UIGEA. (If anyone knows that story, please do tell.) It's legal. Is it regulated? I wondered that, so I asked the nice folks at FanDuel.

Hello,

Thank you for submitting a support ticket. We are strictly regulated by the Fantasy Sports Trade Association (http://www.fsta.org/) and the Government, in accordance with the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA).

Fantasy Sports is considered a game of skill and received a specific exemption from the 2006 Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA). FanDuel uses exactly same rules as season long fantasy sports game, the only difference is that our games last only a day. Thanks to fantasy sports being specifically excluded from laws affecting online sports betting, FanDuel is not illegal in any way.

We hope this clears up any concerns that you may have, but please let us know if you have any other questions.

Thanks,

John

Thank you for playing FanDuel.

I looked up the FSTA. It said nothing about being a regulatory body. LOL. So, I asked "Does the FSTA or Federal Govt have specific licensing requirements? Are they interested in segregation of player funds, types of games of you can offer, etc.?"

Hi Brian,

John forwarded along your email. First off, let me correct a previous statement made by John. FanDuel is an active member of the FSTA, we are not "strictly regulated" by the FSTA.

With that being said FanDuel acts in accordance with government regulation (specifically the UIGEA). One specific regulation is that we must include at least two separate events (2 games for example) to be considered a "game of skill".

While I am unsure of specific regulations regarding segregation of funds, FanDuel does hold all player funds in a segregated account. This quote is from our CEO Nigel Eccles during a recent AMA (ask me anything) thread:

"Player funds are kept separate from our operational funds. We bank with Santander and Square One. More importantly our accounts are audited annually by an independent auditor (Marcum) and their report is reviewed by our audit committee which is made up of our non-exec investment directors. The investment directors represent major blue chip funds like Comcast Ventures and Shamrock Capital.

My point I wanted to make above is that it isn’t enough to keep player funds separate from operational funds. A company could do that and enter into a liability that bankrupted itself. In a bankruptcy situation players become another creditor along with other suppliers. What I was trying to say above was we do keep player funds separate but we also ensure that they are never at risk."

Full contents of this thread can be found here in which Nigel answers other industry related questions: https://rotogrinders.com/threads/my-...-381899?page=6

This is all of the information that we are able to provide at this time, hopefully this has been helpful. Please feel free to reach out to our support team with any future FanDuel support related questions.

Best,

Dylan Kidder
Customer Support Manager
FanDuel.com

Thank you for playing FanDuel.

Interesting? Please feel free to fill in the blanks for me.

Cliffs for the TLDR among us:
- how is online poker illegal, exactly?
- is fantasy sports really regulated?
- FanDuel says, "Yeah... not so much."

[Sanlmar]

DRK, We were discussing online poker & regulation in the SWC thread.

Pay Guido his money.

Short of this, we will have more Full Tilts and UBs, and the perpetrators will repeatedly get away with it.

I tossed out the notion that an online poker site should have differentiated themselves by retaining a big ten accounting firm.

I offered the transparency a public company like PokerStars offers. (Lol a little insider trading).

I now offer the following -
Assume folks did not get paid back (most were). I contend that as pissed off as these players would be most would put on their big boy pants and recognize in hindsight the risk they were taking not paying taxes and not being more diligent about the site's safety.

The guys that were burned 2004-2011 ARE NOT looking for big daddy government to look out for them. Given some kind of independent private review they would all deposit again UNREGULATED.

Your bloated, dysfunctional & corrupt governemnt has not been asked by consumers to get involved.

Poker players are wiser for the experience and will be smarter shoppers. PFA and others will spring up to fill the publics need for site review.

Edit:
Druff, I know you are fighting that urge to protect the players through regulation they do not want cause you know what's best for them.

Your professed Republican politics are suspect. careful what you wish for big guy

[4Dragons]

oy yoy yay oi yoy. The reason gambling is regulated to the extent that it is, is because of organized crime. Mobsters. People that kill you for owing them $1000 Alex. Final Jeapordy braj, you just failed. The online thing and protecting the children is a new one to be sure, but I can't count how many minors I knew that had Stars' accounts. I mean, they all needed a way to get that money offline.. but I digress.

My issue with it is that the regulation creates such a high barrier to entry that the little guy cannot ever start a business in the category. That is the major fuckup in the system. It rewards those who already have, and keeps out anybody who would love to run a legit business. Instead we now just have corporatized mobsters.

Spare us the argument that kids play online poker, Kids can buy bath salts, pills, drugs etc online, Bet horses on tvg etc, I am firing on the horses right now, They NEVER verified my age, Point is fucking parents need to keep a eye on what their kids are doing not the government. The argument kids will play online poker is a very weak one at best.

His argument, not mine. If you literally read the very next sentence, you would see that I don't care.

[Dan Druff]

DRK, We were discussing online poker & regulation in the SWC thread.

Pay Guido his money.

Short of this, we will have more Full Tilts and UBs, and the perpetrators will repeatedly get away with it.

I tossed out the notion that an online poker site should have differentiated themselves by retaining a big ten accounting firm.

I offered the transparency a public company like PokerStars offers. (Lol a little insider trading).

I now offer the following -
Assume folks did not get paid back (most were). I contend that as pissed off as these players would be most would put on their big boy pants and recognize in hindsight the risk they were taking not paying taxes and not being more diligent about the site's safety.

The guys that were burned 2004-2011 ARE NOT looking for big daddy government to look out for them. Given some kind of independent private review they would all deposit again UNREGULATED.

Your bloated, dysfunctional & corrupt governemnt has not been asked by consumers to get involved.

Poker players are wiser for the experience and will be smarter shoppers. PFA and others will spring up to fill the publics need for site review.

Edit:
Druff, I know you are fighting that urge to protect the players through regulation they do not want cause you know what's best for them.

Your professed Republican politics are suspect. careful what you wish for big guy

I support government regulation to prevent fraud, protect the public from physical harm, stop price-fixing or other anti-competitive behavior, ensure the delivery and reliability of essential services, and to protect the environment.

I do NOT support government regulations on prices, quality of non-essential services, artificially creating monopolies, or interference in how corporations deal with one another.

So in this poker case, I would want government regulations to ensure the suitability of operators, ensure that player money is being handled properly, guard against cheating scandals, provide a proper structure for player grievances, and provide criminal penalties for operators or players who cheat/scam.

I would NOT want the government to regulate rake, bonus deals, which games can be offered, or the limits that can be offered.

It is unbelievable to me that, in 2015, people believe that poker sites don't need some form of government regulation after everything that's happened. The "market will decide" model has failed. Even Lock Poker is still operating and taking deposits right now, and it took years of nonpayment to finally die down.

I saw manowar post that the government caused Full Tilt to lose our money. No, they didn't. I am shocked that you believe that.

I realize that some free-market-obsessed Republicans and libertarians believe in zero regulation, and that the free market will take care of everything. I don't believe that.

I realize that others on the left think that the government needs to protect the public in every little aspect from the evil corporations. I don't believe that, either.

There is a middle ground of intelligent, light-touch regulation which establishes framework for the important things while otherwise allowing the business to operate freely. That's what I want.

[Dan Druff]

Anyway let's get away from this political argument about regulation, because it's cluttering what is otherwise an intelligent and thoughtful discussion of the Seals thread (with a good dose of entertaining posts, as well).

My entire point was that the "omg government is so oppressive" argument regarding the Seals bust (or similar online poker busts) is invalid, because these operators were not only knowingly breaking the law, but also enjoying a huge competitive advantage because of their willingness to break the law.

[DannyDeadWood]

It has always been a pet peeve of mine when people complain about the busts against illegal online gambling sites, as if it's indicative that we're living in a police state or oppressive society.

Yes, online gambling should be legal. Yes, the fact that it's illegal is a reduction of our freedom, and the laws against it are unfair, and are often contradictory/hypocritical when comparing them to laws allowing brick and mortar gaming.

However, it is foolish to say that unregulated/unlicensed sites should be able to operate without government interference.

It is especially foolish for poker players to say this, because we've been through so many horrible scandals related to lack of regulation, including AP, UB, Full Tilt, Lock, and countless others.

Unregulated and unlicensed sites are run by people who have no problem breaking the law and risking jail time. Therefore, they are often very shady and untrustworthy characters, and have no qualms about stealing the money or rigging the game. The government can't just sit back and ignore this, just because a few operators (like Pokerstars) manage to operate mostly honestly. It is often very difficult to tell the difference between the legitimate operators and the shady ones. Who would have thought in 2010 that Full Tilt had stolen all of our money?

Furthermore, as Grenada Roger pointed out earlier in this thread, the fact that it's illegal actually creates a lucrative opportunity for those that choose to break the law and offer it anyway. So let's look at Joe, Mark, Bill, and Dave, all of whom have the technical expertise and poker knowledge to start a bitcoin gambling site in the US.

Joe does not start one because he is afraid of going to prison.
Mark does not start one because he is afraid of going to prison.
Bill does not start one because he is afraid of going to prison.

Dave DOES start one, and because he isn't facing competition from Joe, Mark, and Bill (which he would if it were legal), he has a virtual monopoly on his bitcoin gambling site, and makes FAR more money than if he had a lot of competition.

So you can't just say "Dave was a visionary. Dave was a freedom fighter. We must support Dave."

The only thing that separated Dave from Joe, Mark, and Bill was his willingness to break the law and risk prison time. And that's fine if you support Dave and use his site, but you can't cry for him when his risk doesn't work out and he gets busted. The fact that Dave made so much money before he got busted is directly related to the fact that he was offering an illegal service that others were afraid to offer.

Seals was successful because its operators were willing to take the legal risk of allowing bitcoin poker in the US (while others were afraid to do it), and of the few sites willing to take the risk, they did it the best. But they were lacking the competition from countless other operations which could have (and would have) existed if it were legal.

I play on Bovada, which is also illegally operating. It will be personally frustrating to me if they get busted and/or shut themselves out of my state, but at the same time, I'm not going to blame the government for doing so.

Well said Todd, Micon's video'd response was on the ignorant side at the least and one could argue just plain delusional...

[GrenadaRoger]

DRK, We were discussing online poker & regulation in the SWC thread.

Pay Guido his money.




I tossed out the notion that an online poker site should have differentiated themselves by retaining a big ten accounting firm.

I offered the transparency a public company like PokerStars offers. (Lol a little insider trading).

I now offer the following -
Assume folks did not get paid back (most were). I contend that as pissed off as these players would be most would put on their big boy pants and recognize in hindsight the risk they were taking not paying taxes and not being more diligent about the site's safety.

The guys that were burned 2004-2011 ARE NOT looking for big daddy government to look out for them. Given some kind of independent private review they would all deposit again UNREGULATED.

Your bloated, dysfunctional & corrupt governemnt has not been asked by consumers to get involved.

Poker players are wiser for the experience and will be smarter shoppers. PFA and others will spring up to fill the publics need for site review.

Edit:
Druff, I know you are fighting that urge to protect the players through regulation they do not want cause you know what's best for them.

Your professed Republican politics are suspect. careful what you wish for big guy

I support government regulation to prevent fraud, protect the public from physical harm, stop price-fixing or other anti-competitive behavior, ensure the delivery and reliability of essential services, and to protect the environment.

I do NOT support government regulations on prices, quality of non-essential services, artificially creating monopolies, or interference in how corporations deal with one another.

So in this poker case, I would want government regulations to ensure the suitability of operators, ensure that player money is being handled properly, guard against cheating scandals, provide a proper structure for player grievances, and provide criminal penalties for operators or players who cheat/scam.

I would NOT want the government to regulate rake, bonus deals, which games can be offered, or the limits that can be offered.

It is unbelievable to me that, in 2015, people believe that poker sites don't need some form of government regulation after everything that's happened. The "market will decide" model has failed. Even Lock Poker is still operating and taking deposits right now, and it took years of nonpayment to finally die down.

I saw manowar post that the government caused Full Tilt to lose our money. No, they didn't. I am shocked that you believe that.

I realize that some free-market-obsessed Republicans and libertarians believe in zero regulation, and that the free market will take care of everything. I don't believe that.

I realize that others on the left think that the government needs to protect the public in every little aspect from the evil corporations. I don't believe that, either.

There is a middle ground of intelligent, light-touch regulation which establishes framework for the important things while otherwise allowing the business to operate freely. That's what I want.

Very sensible...and that is what people want re: everything (safe medicine and food, clean air and water, banks adequately capitalized and fair stock markets)---protection from harm by things too complicated technologically for an average person to understand....but people just hate paying the government for the protection, so don't Uncle Sam don't get carried away with the protection racket...

[JUSTIFIEDhomicide]

Spare us the argument that kids play online poker, Kids can buy bath salts, pills, drugs etc online, Bet horses on tvg etc, I am firing on the horses right now, They NEVER verified my age, Point is fucking parents need to keep a eye on what their kids are doing not the government. The argument kids will play online poker is a very weak one at best.

His argument, not mine. If you literally read the very next sentence, you would see that I don't care.

I think the fact there was a next sentence proves you care

[abrown83]

It's live bitches

[sonatine]

Hosted in Switzerland apparently. A damned site better than the Romanians.

[lewfather]

It's live bitches

Does this mean officially he won't be coming back to the states?

[::o]

Amazing what you can do with a little motivation.

[Crowe Diddly]

Amazing what you can do with a little motivation.

and without oversight.

[4Dragons]

It's live bitches

Does this mean officially he won't be coming back to the states?

He will be Kinged Micon The Swiss.

[sonatine]

can we talk about how a fucking bitcoin poker site doesnt even have SSL enabled?

[GambleBotsSatire]