DN and Mason fight on 2+2

[Daredevil]

You can go over to NVG and read the thread. To be fair there are points on both sides that I agree with.

But another point came up which I found interesting. Daniel said that 2+2 is generally negative and full of myopic haters who cannot see beyond their own keyboard. He went on to say that the state of 2+2 is a reflection of it's owner, that the site basically is a virtual Mason because of what he allows to be posted there. And also what seems to rise to prominence on the forum is also prominent in Mason. However, Mason says that the site just is what it is, as he doesn't moderate and wants to not censor his user base unless absolutely necessary. An interesting theory/debate for sure.

This also got me thinking, if a forum is a reflection of the owner, and what is prominent on the site is also prominent in the owners mind.......



Then Druff is a gay alcoholic.

[herbertstemple]

However, Mason says that the site just is what it is, as he doesn't moderate and wants to not censor his user base unless absolutely necessary. An interesting theory/debate for sure.

This also got me thinking, if a forum is a reflection of the owner, and what is prominent on the site is also prominent in the owners mind.......



Then Druff is a gay alcoholic.

LOfuckingL

[Daredevil]

However, Mason says that the site just is what it is, as he doesn't moderate and wants to not censor his user base unless absolutely necessary. An interesting theory/debate for sure.

This also got me thinking, if a forum is a reflection of the owner, and what is prominent on the site is also prominent in the owners mind.......



Then Druff is a gay alcoholic.

LOfuckingL

I know right? What he means to say is he doesn't want to censor his site..... unless it conflicts with his interests.

[Dan Druff]

Here is the thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...r-pro-1527691/

As is par for the course at 2+2, you will have to disregard a lot of crap posts in order to get to the interesting stuff.

Some don't realize this, but the main catalyst for the recent animosity between Mason and Daniel was Jasep.

Yes, THAT Jasep.

Basically Jasep talked Daniel into getting on board for promoting the 22Q podcast (and appearing on it), and then Mason refused to let anyone post about it on 2+2. Daniel got really pissed, believing that Mason was just being a curmudgeon and overly enforcing his "spam" rules. Mason argued that it's too difficult to vet the various poker charities for legitimacy, so he has to shut down promotion of all charities.

Of course, it turned out that this whole thing WAS somewhat of a scam. Jasep's primary interest in the 22Q podcast was to steal most of the money, and his secondary interest was perhaps to use it as a stepping stone to blow up his website (which didn't end up happening).

Anyway, Daniel and Mason got into a huge argument over this. Daniel ended up with egg on his face when Jasep turned out to actually be a scammer, and Mason donated $2500 to 22Q, in a move which I believe was primarily to show up Daniel and others who had earlier accused him of being heartless.

In Daniel's defense, people did produce proof that Mason in the past had allowed charities to be promoted on 2+2, as well as allowed political candidates to promote themselves. Mason had claimed neither of these were allowed when he banned the 22Q promotion. So there definitely was some anti-favortism going on here, and Mason just kinda lucked into being right. Had the 22Q podcast been completely legit, Mason would have looked like an asshole when it was all done.

I disagree with Daniel's assessment that 2+2's posters are a reflection of Mason himself. That same tired argument is used against me when people complain about the racism and controversial speech on this site. You can allow certain types of speech on your forum without implicitly putting your stamp of approval on it.

However, it's hilarious how Mason is passing off the situation as him simply being hands off and anti-censorship, because that's about as far as you can get from the truth. Recall that Mason once banned ESPN columnist Gary Wise from 2+2 because I was featured in an ESPN article, as Mason felt that he had the right to control who ESPN wrote about. If that's not an example of a censor-happy control freak, I don't know what is.

Someone in the thread mentioned that Daniel has recently come off as a "stepford wife" in his recent writings/blogs. I have to somewhat agree with this. Look at this nonsense:

I wouldn't take it back though. I don't live with any regrets in my life. Sure, I can look back and think given the same scenario I would handle it differently, but I don't regret any choices I have made because they got me to a place now that I'm very happy with.
.
.
.
You, nor the "haters" have the ability or power to make me angry or offended. I do not grant you that power, and I don't take anything personally. I choose how I respond to people, places, and events, and being offended or angry isn't a place I look to choose from. I have on many occasions in the past, and occasionally still do and likely always will, but I don't live in that place.

Basically he's saying that he doesn't have any regrets regarding his mistakes in life, because they ultimately led him to Choice Center, where he has found bliss.

Ugh.

The second part is a bit too touchy-feely for my taste, again being written from the point of view that he's too enlightened nowadays to be irritated by forum trolls. While it's great that Negreanu has developed a thicker skin regarding online trolling, that thick skin seems to originate from his weird, trance-like "happiness" which, again, was a product of Choice Center.

I don't think Daniel is a bad guy, and he is good for poker, but boy is he in deep with these con artists.

[Lord of the Fraud]

Much of what Daniel says these days feels totally scripted.


And Daniel is using it like it has come from a much wiser and higher being than anything else on this planet (or universe?)


Don't know what he's found at the end of his rainbow. But he seems hellbent on taking people along on a similar ride.


It's a real long winded subject is Choice Center. It's deep, dark and outright fucking spooky.


And it isn't Daniel that I feel sorry for... It's the people close to him and the many thousands of insecure nutswingers we should be concerned for.

[Shizzmoney]

I don't think Daniel is a bad guy, and he is good for poker, but boy is he in deep with these con artists.

They'll get all his money in the end, too. Vultures are the most patient nits in all of nature.

[Daredevil]

Both Daniel and Mason come across as very arrogant and out of touch.

First you have Mason, who is so arrogant he feels he should control basically all poker media, including other peoples forums. But then says he doesn't censor anyone and is "hands off".

Then you have Daniel, who speaks with the surety of a cult leader. I mean, Daniel isn't even like other humans at this point, he's better, he's like a pure being of light sent to fix the world through choice center!

[anonamoose]

Choice center reminds me of that retreat from Arrested Development that George Sr and Oscar make.

[Sanlmar]

People spend so much time criticizing Malmuth & 2+2 in general.

It's all true. Unfortunately, the site is an institution. There is nothing anyone can do to kill it. It is beyond reproach and Malmuth knows it. Malmuth doesn't have to answer to anyone. It is a rare & remarkable position he has achieved with his dreadful site.

Tilting at windmills.

[Dan Druff]

Actually, I don't do that much to run this site. It's true as the owner the buck stops with me, but our philosophy is to let our posters be in charge as much as possible. An example is the moderation. Mat Sklansky is in charge of the moderation, not me. And why is that?

Well, unknown to you, years ago, when working for the US Census Bureau, I spent a couple of years in statistical quality control, and the first thing you learn in this field is that the QC people need to be independent of the production people. Translated to twoplustwo.com, it means that I should have as little to do as possible with direct moderation measures. Of course, as the site owner, I can step in when necessary, but it's also our objective for me to step in as little as possible.

We can't stop someone from putting up a post we don't like. In fact, our legal advice is to police as little as possible. But with that said, we do try to keep insults to a minimum and rely on our volunteer moderators to help us out in this area.

This is really a different subject, but if I was "100% responsible for everything this forum creates" then none of this website would exist. In addition, and this is very important, legally we are also not responsible in any way that you imply.

[Dan Druff]

I see what Mason's doing there, though.

He's trying to make it look like he barely sees or attempts to moderate the content on his site, so he can hide behind that legally if anyone sues him for something posted there. But it's just so ridiculous because his supposed hands-off approach is so not true.

[Dan Druff]

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poke...t_from=&ucat=&

I don't see why people on 2+2 are hating on Daniel's blog above, though. Seems like pretty sensible stuff to me.

All Choice Center obsession aside, his poker/bankroll advice still makes sense.

[Daredevil]

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poke...t_from=&ucat=&

I don't see why people on 2+2 are hating on Daniel's blog above, though. Seems like pretty sensible stuff to me.

All Choice Center obsession aside, his poker/bankroll advice still makes sense.

It does and it doesn't. Yes poker is more hard work than people think, and yes you might put more hours into it than a regular job. But that frames it as just a job and just a means to an end. It ignores all ancillary benefits of being your own boss. And the fact that you get to play a game, that you presumably love, for a living.

But his win rates are way off in my opinion. The top 2/5 players make 30/hr? No way. Also, I think he's way out of touch with money and an average cost of living. You don't need to make 100k a year to live, especially in Vegas. And I doubt most people turning pro think they're going to make 100k their first year in poker and would be disappointed if they don't.

[TheXFactor]

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poke...t_from=&ucat=&

I don't see why people on 2+2 are hating on Daniel's blog above, though. Seems like pretty sensible stuff to me.

All Choice Center obsession aside, his poker/bankroll advice still makes sense.

Advice for become a Poker Professional...

Invent a time machine to go back to 2003.
Become a poker media whore to portray yourself as the best poker player ever.
Have a well known female poker pro loan you money to continue to play in tournaments and cash games.
Sign a lucrative contract with PokerStars worth millions of dollars per year.

Yes, anyone can win the lottery.

Start right now by buying play chips on PokerStars.

[TheXFactor]

[Lord of the Fraud]

I know you fatties have some hideous names "Randy" "Chuck" to name but a few.

But what cruel ass parents call their child "Mason" when his surname is Malmuth?

Child Abuse written all over that one.

[Daredevil]

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poke...t_from=&ucat=&

I don't see why people on 2+2 are hating on Daniel's blog above, though. Seems like pretty sensible stuff to me.

All Choice Center obsession aside, his poker/bankroll advice still makes sense.

Advice for become a Poker Professional...

Invent a time machine to go back to 2003.
Become a poker media whore to portray yourself as the best poker player ever.
Have a well known female poker pro loan you money to continue to play in tournaments and cash games.
Sign a lucrative contract with PokerStars worth millions of dollars per year.

Yes, anyone can win the lottery.

Start right now by buying play chips on PokerStars.

To be fair, there was a time (2004) where he was the best live no-limit holdem tourney player in the world.
And he's still profitable in today's environment so that is impressive.
I would not attack his poker game considering he is much, much, much better at poker than I am. And anyone else on this board for that matter.

[TheXFactor]

I'm not attacking Daniel Negreanu's poker game, he is a really good player and he should enter every high-roller poker tournament out there because he has a fairly good advantage.

Imagine if Daniel was a young kid today making $50K a year trying to be a poker pro?
He would be going around to the poker media telling them how great he is. They would think he's fucking crazy.
I believe he might consider a different profession.

Lucky for Daniel, he become a poker pro at the right time when poker blow up huge.

PokerStars (Amaya) will probably get rid of every poker pro from the U.S.

Unless you are a hot young female who isn't very good in poker?
PokerStars may be looking to sponsor you.

[limitles]

I know you fatties have some hideous names "Randy" "Chuck" to name but a few.

But what cruel ass parents call their child "Mason" when his surname is Malmuth?

Child Abuse written all over that one.

You best not go there as you can see I've only reached the C's.

Algernon
Bartholomew
Basil
Bertram
Clare
Clive

[mulva]

no new holes in the desert yet?..either that or i could see mm going down like that binion dude, gunned down in front of his home