Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 77

Thread: Ivey Being sued by Borgata

  1. #1
    Silver IamGreek's Avatar
    Reputation
    183
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    754
    Load Metric
    65643380

    Ivey Being sued by Borgata


     
    Comments
      
      Flipper_Fair: Good Find Greek

  2. #2
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    10110
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    54,626
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    65643380
    Wow, so he did this at the Borgata, too, and now they're suing him to get the money back.

    They must have figured it out after the Crockfords situation.

    I am on Ivey's side on this one, though. The article says he "cheated" a casino out of $9.6 million. No, he didn't. He noticed a flaw in the cards and used it to his advantage. Part of any casino card game involves using all information available to you, provided you don't utilize outside devices or casino insiders. Ivey simply used his eyes and a companion to help convince the casino to turn the cards a different way. That is not cheating. That is advantage play.

    If Ivey loses this suit, it spells bad news for any advantage players, as they can be accused of "cheating" if they simply use their heads to exploit previously unknown edges in casino games.

    Borgata has more of a reasonable suit against the playing card company, however, as their providing of a defective product caused this vulnerability in the game to exist.

  3. #3
    Diamond shortbuspoker's Avatar
    Reputation
    863
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,047
    Load Metric
    65643380
    I agree with Druff. This is 100% on the dealers for not recognizing that the cards were flawed when they brought them into the game and the pit boss for not shutting the game down at least momentarily if they suspected something was up. Ivey did nothing "illegal".

  4. #4
    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
    Reputation
    36
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    1,812
    Load Metric
    65643380
    To play devil's advocate:

    If you go into a bank and the teller accidentally gives you $10,000 instead of $10 do you keep it?

    If you notice an ATM machine is malfunctioning and spitting out money do you get to keep it?

    Theoretically, in both cases it should be up to the bank and ATM machine owner to make sure things are working properly.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Some of the charges seem applicable: "breach of contract, fraud, conversion, unjust enrichment, civil conspiracy and racketeering" It's not as if he was playing and recognized the flaw. this was premeditated, evidenced by the woman and his growing history.

    A similar edge sorting case was won by the casino btw.

    It's a very interesting case that I don't find clear-cut at all
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

  5. #5
    Diamond shortbuspoker's Avatar
    Reputation
    863
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,047
    Load Metric
    65643380
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Some of the charges seem applicable: "breach of contract, fraud, conversion, unjust enrichment, civil conspiracy and racketeering" It's not as if he was playing and recognized the flaw. this was premeditated, evidenced by the woman and his growing history.

    A similar edge sorting case was won by the casino btw.

    It's a very interesting case that I don't find clear-cut at all
    I see what you're saying from a moral standpoint and I understand that the casino hates losing in such a fashion, but in my mind it shouldn't be illegal. If the player, in this case Phil Ivey, played no part whatsoever in the flaws occurring or marking the cards then they have done nothing wrong. If a casino chose the ban this player like a BJ card counter then so be it but they should not be trying to prosecute someone for the results of their own incompetence as either the dealer, the pit boss, or the surveillance team should catch these types of things.

  6. #6
    Serial Blogger BeerAndPoker's Avatar
    Reputation
    1402
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    10,114
    Blog Entries
    20
    Load Metric
    65643380
    Any casino edge you can find as long as it don't require you to use any sort of "device" is fair game imo. If the casino leaves themselves vulnerable because of something on the back of the cards or whatever it might be that wasn't placed that way from the player then they need to suck it up, fix the problem, and eat the money they are out.

    Any casino can tell a player not to play there anymore for whatever reason refusing a guy like Ivey action but they shouldn't be able to collect on a lawsuit or withhold paying him for their own leaks.

  7. #7
    Platinum nunbeater's Avatar
    Reputation
    522
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,692
    Load Metric
    65643380
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    To play devil's advocate:

    If you go into a bank and the teller accidentally gives you $10,000 instead of $10 do you keep it?

    If you notice an ATM machine is malfunctioning and spitting out money do you get to keep it?

    Theoretically, in both cases it should be up to the bank and ATM machine owner to make sure things are working properly.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Some of the charges seem applicable: "breach of contract, fraud, conversion, unjust enrichment, civil conspiracy and racketeering" It's not as if he was playing and recognized the flaw. this was premeditated, evidenced by the woman and his growing history.

    A similar edge sorting case was won by the casino btw.

    It's a very interesting case that I don't find clear-cut at all
    Your examples don't really apply since if you withdraw and keep money that the bank accidentally credits to your account you can and will get in some deep shit. Banks can choose to prosecute you if you don't pay up and you will probably get a fine on top of it.

  8. #8
    Cubic Zirconia RileyG's Avatar
    Reputation
    11
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    10
    Load Metric
    65643380
    And I highly doubt that there is any video proof of the Borgata's claims unless they suspected something was amiss at the time. Most tapes are only keep for 30 days, UNLESS something is suspect and they burn a few copies off and save the possible evidence for a later date.
    -

    Added: Now if a person or persons acted in concert with a person or persons inside a playing card company to design said flaws, and had a listing of orders, deliveries made of certain card designs, then there may be something to this and more...
    Last edited by RileyG; 04-11-2014 at 04:47 PM. Reason: added more thoughts

  9. #9
    PFA Emeritus Crowe Diddly's Avatar
    Reputation
    1954
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    6,682
    Load Metric
    65643380
    Quote Originally Posted by RileyG View Post
    And I highly doubt that there is any video proof of the Borgata's claims unless they suspected something was amiss at the time. Most tapes are only keep for 30 days, UNLESS something is suspect and they burn a few copies off and save the possible evidence for a later date.
    they ain't still using tapes, and haven't for years now.

    edit: I assume.
    Last edited by Crowe Diddly; 04-11-2014 at 05:11 PM.

  10. #10
    Platinum garrett's Avatar
    Reputation
    29
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    east coast
    Posts
    4,259
    Load Metric
    65643380
    Thread is sad. Ivey, Ivey, Ivey.


    Money is powerful stuff. If you know an angle, do you take it?

  11. #11
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    10110
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    54,626
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    65643380
    Here is another article with more details. It's basically the exact same story as the Crockfords situation:

    http://blog.northjersey.com/meadowla...ing-card-scam/

  12. #12
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    10110
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    54,626
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    65643380
    I still don't see this as cheating.

    By contrast, I was on the casino's side in a recent case against two video poker players.

    These guys found a flaw in a certain type of video poker machine to where certain specific actions caused the machine to erroneously pay out 10x what it was supposed to. While these guys did not tamper with the machine in any way or use outside devices, they were engaging in a very specific, non-typical series of button pushes that clearly intended to exploit a bug in the machine. Thus, they weren't simply employing the optimal strategy to beat a game, or using extra information accidentally given to them in order to increase their edge. They were exploiting a flaw in the machine to make it erroneously pay out. That's totally different than noticing cards were manufactured poorly and talking the casino into turning them in a way to where you can see the flaws better.

    Ivey was engaging in advantage play and should be allowed to keep the money.

  13. #13
    Silver varys's Avatar
    Reputation
    250
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    985
    Load Metric
    65643380
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I still don't see this as cheating.

    By contrast, I was on the casino's side in a recent case against two video poker players.

    These guys found a flaw in a certain type of video poker machine to where certain specific actions caused the machine to erroneously pay out 10x what it was supposed to. While these guys did not tamper with the machine in any way or use outside devices, they were engaging in a very specific, non-typical series of button pushes that clearly intended to exploit a bug in the machine. Thus, they weren't simply employing the optimal strategy to beat a game, or using extra information accidentally given to them in order to increase their edge. They were exploiting a flaw in the machine to make it erroneously pay out. That's totally different than noticing cards were manufactured poorly and talking the casino into turning them in a way to where you can see the flaws better.

    Ivey was engaging in advantage play and should be allowed to keep the money.
    Can you link this story or give us more details? How did they get caught? What were the consequences?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyde
    you're more consumed with accumulating wealth than achieving spiritual enlightenment

  14. #14
    Serial Blogger BeerAndPoker's Avatar
    Reputation
    1402
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    10,114
    Blog Entries
    20
    Load Metric
    65643380

  15. #15
    Diamond TheXFactor's Avatar
    Reputation
    1199
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    6,934
    Load Metric
    65643380
    Isn't it the casinos responsibly to replace the cards?

    Exploit every edge possible.


    Learn how to beat the casinos out of tens of millions.
    http://www.iveyleague.com




  16. #16
    Cubic Zirconia RileyG's Avatar
    Reputation
    11
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    10
    Load Metric
    65643380
    I am loosely reminded of the 1966 Warren Beatty movie, "Kaleidoscope".


  17. #17
    Gold Salty_Aus's Avatar
    Reputation
    283
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Gold Coast, QLD, Australia
    Posts
    1,691
    Load Metric
    65643380
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I still don't see this as cheating.

    By contrast, I was on the casino's side in a recent case against two video poker players.

    These guys found a flaw in a certain type of video poker machine to where certain specific actions caused the machine to erroneously pay out 10x what it was supposed to. While these guys did not tamper with the machine in any way or use outside devices, they were engaging in a very specific, non-typical series of button pushes that clearly intended to exploit a bug in the machine. Thus, they weren't simply employing the optimal strategy to beat a game, or using extra information accidentally given to them in order to increase their edge. They were exploiting a flaw in the machine to make it erroneously pay out. That's totally different than noticing cards were manufactured poorly and talking the casino into turning them in a way to where you can see the flaws better.

    Ivey was engaging in advantage play and should be allowed to keep the money.
    I reckon they're pissing in the wind, and will never be able to prove he did this... less he or an associate confess.

    Any video evidence will not be able to pick up the defect, he can simply say his actions were based on nothing more then a gamblers superstition.


  18. #18
    Cubic Zirconia RileyG's Avatar
    Reputation
    11
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    10
    Load Metric
    65643380
    Quote Originally Posted by Crowe Diddly View Post
    they ain't still using tapes, and haven't for years now.

    edit: I assume.
    True to tapes vs computers, but nothing is archived for longer than 30 days unless a complaint is made with that 30 day period. This is not the NSA...

  19. #19

  20. #20
    Banned
    Reputation
    -7
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    121
    Load Metric
    65643380
    LOL @ the Borgota letting him play even after knowing about what he did. How could the casino be so stupid?

     
    Comments
      
      Deal: freeroll

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Scandal breaking at WPT Borgata Winter Open???
    By garrett in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: 01-19-2014, 07:57 AM
  2. kit kat is going to get sued by ben stiller
    By mulva in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 11-24-2013, 11:54 AM
  3. Borgata claims first N.J. Internet gambling permit
    By garrett in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-22-2013, 04:29 PM
  4. MT Gox being sued
    By anonamoose in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-03-2013, 01:21 AM
  5. Johnny Sep's WPT Borgata BAP Extravaganza
    By Jasep in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 02-01-2013, 06:35 AM