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Thread: PokerFraudAlert Report: Pokerstars scammed its US players out of tens of millions of dollars with their Black Friday FPP cashout policy

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  2. #22
    Gold Shizzmoney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
    #2 -- I really like Daniel, but this is a classic example of justifcation after the fact. They paid 100% of what they were legally allowed to pay???? What does this even mean? I'm assuming he means legally obligated. PokerStars is a private company; they could have given every US player a $50 going away bonus if they wanted to, they weren't prohibited from setting the value of FPP's higher if they so chose to. How hard would it have been to just say all spare FPP's that couldn't be converted will be valued at $x?

    Anyway you slice it, this was a decision on how to pay out the least without getting crucified by the community, and I think they picked a perfect number since the outcry has been a whisper at best. They didn't do anything wrong or nefarious, but I don't understand how Daniel thinks having 1-2,499 unconverted FPP's (valued at $.01 to $40) is "fair" to the player. I'm in a place where I don't need an extra $40, but some people do. And even though I don't need it, $40 is $40: It's gas money for the week, groceries, or the ability to take your kids to a museum or waterpark.
    Right, and that's the point. The cash and the players point on the site are all relative and really, in the end, up to the handler to make the decision.

    It also goes back to what the value of a PokerStars dollar was before or after Black Friday. Granted, the company isn't hurting like EpicPokerfail style, but I am sure if a Pokerstars dollar were on a trading exchange, it definitely would of taken a hit (which, in turns, affects the value of rakeback/vip points) after 4/15/2011. Although in the end, they made good on the accounts portion, so they weren't insolvent like FTP (and BTW, those points are loooooooong gone).

    In terms of the FPPs, were they offered at a solid, concrete conversion rate? Or did the hit that the site took on the US accounts drop their value? If the ladder is the case (and I suspect that's the excuse they'd use), they should of, at least, be honest with the players and told them that the FPPs were non-negotiable and can be revalued at any time (I dunno if there is language about this........which is kind of the point. I'm sure they've also used the US incident to tighten the noose on their language, if there is).

  3. #23
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Yebsite classic.

    I have to tell everyone something. Before Yebsite was Yebsite (this was around mid-2008), he sent me an anonymous message warning me that the big sites were going to be out of the US market soon and would roll everyone once that happened.

    How crazy does he look now?

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    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    I don't know why so many people are referring to the value of FPPs plummeting after Black Friday, as if they were publicly traded stocks.

    FPPs were fixed at a rate of 1.6 cents for many years. This was occasionally publicized on 2+2 when Pokerstars reps wanted to convince dedicated grinders that their VIP program was better than Full Tilt's rakeback.

    Just because Stars kept the FPPs as a separate balance from the player's regular cash balance doesn't mean that they should "degrade" in value just because the company suffers an unfortunate setback.

    It's the same reason that your cash in your Pokerstars account shouldn't be paid at anything less than 100% parity.

    Both were assets that the player earned (and paid a lot of rake to Pokerstars in the process of earning), and should be fully entitled to.

    Pokerstars did the absolute minimum to pacify both the DOJ and public opinion, while keeping as much as they could for themselves.

    At the end of the whole mess, people who trusted Pokerstars' word on 2+2 got burned.

    Pokerstars encouraged point hoarding.

    Pokerstars made it clear to those who were interested that FPPs were worth 1.6 cents each.

    Neither ended up being true, and people like me who trusted them got cheated out of money -- in my case it was around $2000.

    This is in addition to the "excess" FPP issue (which was actually the worst part of their whole policy), which literally cheated 99.96% of their US real money player base out of an average of $20 each.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I don't know why so many people are referring to the value of FPPs plummeting after Black Friday, as if they were publicly traded stocks.

    FPPs were fixed at a rate of 1.6 cents for many years. This was occasionally publicized on 2+2 when Pokerstars reps wanted to convince dedicated grinders that their VIP program was better than Full Tilt's rakeback.

    Just because Stars kept the FPPs as a separate balance from the player's regular cash balance doesn't mean that they should "degrade" in value just because the company suffers an unfortunate setback.

    It's the same reason that your cash in your Pokerstars account shouldn't be paid at anything less than 100% parity.

    Both were assets that the player earned (and paid a lot of rake to Pokerstars in the process of earning), and should be fully entitled to.

    Pokerstars did the absolute minimum to pacify both the DOJ and public opinion, while keeping as much as they could for themselves.

    At the end of the whole mess, people who trusted Pokerstars' word on 2+2 got burned.

    Pokerstars encouraged point hoarding.

    Pokerstars made it clear to those who were interested that FPPs were worth 1.6 cents each.

    Neither ended up being true, and people like me who trusted them got cheated out of money -- in my case it was around $2000.

    This is in addition to the "excess" FPP issue (which was actually the worst part of their whole policy), which literally cheated 99.96% of their US real money player base out of an average of $20 each.

    Druff, Simply you are right, however given the suddenness of black friday and the disaster that turned out to be Full Tilt. I, like many where just happy to get back our money and FPP's all-be it at a discount from Stars. Ask your self this, if Poker Stars and Full Tilt(under any owner) came back to the US would you play there?. I think 95% of players would say Yes to PS and 95% would say no to FT, which speaks directly to how each company handled black friday.

  6. #26
    One question which cannot really be answered until Pokerstars returns to the US is this: Do US players still have the remainder of their FPPs in their currently locked accounts? If so then that removes one of Druff's criticisms for those with < 2500 FPPs. Also the idea that Stars somehow designed the system to systematically screw everyone is ridiculous. They had to come up with something quickly that the DoJ would rubber-stamp and simply used the existing functionality for converting FPPs into cash bonuses. Those structures and limits had the unintended consequences that Druff has detailed but it wasn't by design. Stars took a massive hit to their business and profitablity which could have taken them down if they hadn't shrewdly diversified around the globe. Some negative impact was inevitably going to feed back to the players and this is an example. Given that they refunded the account balances, and T$ and W$ at face-value I really don't think complaining about a somewhat less than optimal compensation for FPPs is that strong an argument given FTP's antics and the fact that UB has just quietly walked off with everyone's money.

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    Don't know if this is been posted before but Pokerstars also didn't pay people under 100.00 in account with all the micro players. Im sure this added up to quite a bit also was wondering what your thoughts on that are Todd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PokerPlayer99 View Post
    Don't know if this is been posted before but Pokerstars also didn't pay people under 100.00 in account with all the micro players. Im sure this added up to quite a bit also was wondering what your thoughts on that are Todd.
    I haven't heard this. Can you link me to any articles or threads about this?

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    Druff i don't know of any articles the reason i know this is because i was a micro player had less then 10 dollars on there and when they paid US players i tried to get paid. All there options said sorry if you have less then 100 we will not be able to issue a check and there was no other way to get paid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PokerPlayer99 View Post
    Druff i don't know of any articles the reason i know this is because i was a micro player had less then 10 dollars on there and when they paid US players i tried to get paid. All there options said sorry if you have less then 100 we will not be able to issue a check and there was no other way to get paid.
    If this is true id love to hear DN spin this one like he did with the FPP

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShawnFanningsLimpDick View Post
    One question which cannot really be answered until Pokerstars returns to the US is this: Do US players still have the remainder of their FPPs in their currently locked accounts? If so then that removes one of Druff's criticisms for those with < 2500 FPPs. Also the idea that Stars somehow designed the system to systematically screw everyone is ridiculous. They had to come up with something quickly that the DoJ would rubber-stamp and simply used the existing functionality for converting FPPs into cash bonuses. Those structures and limits had the unintended consequences that Druff has detailed but it wasn't by design. Stars took a massive hit to their business and profitablity which could have taken them down if they hadn't shrewdly diversified around the globe. Some negative impact was inevitably going to feed back to the players and this is an example. Given that they refunded the account balances, and T$ and W$ at face-value I really don't think complaining about a somewhat less than optimal compensation for FPPs is that strong an argument given FTP's antics and the fact that UB has just quietly walked off with everyone's money.
    Even though I named a blanket after you, I have to take issue with what you wrote above.

    Yes, we have the remainder FPPs in our accounts, but why does that matter? The chance that Stars will ever serve US players again is almost zero. Sure, I could access those FPPs again if I moved to another country, but that's not realistic for Stars to expect or require of their clientele. The truth is that only a tiny percentage of their customer base has the ability and/or desire to leave the US just to play there.

    You also doubt that Stars didn't realize they were screwing players out of FPP value, but rather were just slapping something together really quickly that the DOJ would approve. I highly doubt that. You're talking about a company with a history of one brilliant business decision after another. You're talking about a company with a 9-year history of amazing attention to detail. Furthermore, it's not like someone put a gun to Isai Scheinberg's head and told him to come up with an FPP reimbursement plan within 5 minutes. Even if Stars wanted to come up with something "quickly", they definitely had enough time to realize that their plan was screwing their US players out of big time value.

    Question for you: The simplest way to redeem FPPs would have been to assign them a flat rate and automatically convert them into cash. Why didn't Stars just do that? Do you think the DOJ would have POSSIBLY had an issue with that? 100% chance the DOJ would have been fine with that conversion method.

    Finally, I see you are using the "Stars took a big hit to their business, so we have to cut them some slack" line. No, we don't. They made well over a billion dollars from us in less than a decade. The least they could have done is reimburse US players for the full value of their accounts. They managed to do it for the regular account balances and the W$/T$, but they shortchanged us on our FPPs. As already stated in my report, FPPs weren't just a gift or promotion. They were supposed to have real value, and were supposed to be equivalent to rakeback. They made a LOT of extra money by convincing grinders to choose them over Full Tilt, thanks to their highly popular VIP program. Unless they want to give back that extra money, they need to honor the terms of that program as they promoted it on public forums.

    What they did would never fly in a court of law in the United States. "Our business took a hit" or "We didn't really mean to say that" isn't an excuse to underpay people that you owe. If Stars was a US business, we could engage in a class action suit and have an extremely high chance of winning. This is especially true because Stars is still flush with cash and is still in operation.

    I don't feel sorry for billionaires because they can't make quite as much money as they used to. Those billionaires still need to pay what they owe.

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    Bronze BuSTMeANuT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PokerPlayer99 View Post
    Don't know if this is been posted before but Pokerstars also didn't pay people under 100.00 in account with all the micro players. Im sure this added up to quite a bit also was wondering what your thoughts on that are Todd.
    I haven't heard this. Can you link me to any articles or threads about this?
    I had just busted my account right before BF and had $3.31 and just to see if it was possible I tried to cash it out and it wouldn't let me. This is a much bigger issue than the fpps IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PokerPlayer99 View Post
    Don't know if this is been posted before but Pokerstars also didn't pay people under 100.00 in account with all the micro players. Im sure this added up to quite a bit also was wondering what your thoughts on that are Todd.
    Im pretty sure this was only if you wanted to get paid by check.

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    What if you requested a bank transfer?

    Are you telling me that there was absolutely no way to cash out if you had less than $100?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuSTMeANuT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    I haven't heard this. Can you link me to any articles or threads about this?
    I had just busted my account right before BF and had $3.31 and just to see if it was possible I tried to cash it out and it wouldn't let me. This is a much bigger issue than the fpps IMO.
    A friend of mine got a check for just over $25, so I'm not too sure about this
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    What if you requested a bank transfer?

    Are you telling me that there was absolutely no way to cash out if you had less than $100?
    I got paid with less than $100 in my account.

    E-Check I am positive.

    Guessing either person didn't have a bank account, or didn't want to link their bank account to PokerStars.

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    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abrown83 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    What if you requested a bank transfer?

    Are you telling me that there was absolutely no way to cash out if you had less than $100?
    I got paid with less than $100 in my account.

    E-Check I am positive.

    Guessing either person didn't have a bank account, or didn't want to link their bank account to PokerStars.
    Yes, my friend just said he had to submit his bank account details and the money was sent to him.
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    You also doubt that Stars didn't realize they were screwing players out of FPP value, but rather were just slapping something together really quickly that the DOJ would approve. I highly doubt that. You're talking about a company with a history of one brilliant business decision after another. You're talking about a company with a 9-year history of amazing attention to detail. Furthermore, it's not like someone put a gun to Isai Scheinberg's head and told him to come up with an FPP reimbursement plan within 5 minutes. Even if Stars wanted to come up with something "quickly", they definitely had enough time to realize that their plan was screwing their US players out of big time value.

    I don't feel sorry for billionaires because they can't make quite as much money as they used to. Those billionaires still need to pay what they owe.
    Well I don't think Black Friday was part of Stars' brilliant strategy. Of course the DoJ wouldve agreed to a flat rate. I'm in total agreement with you that Negreanu's statement is a nonsensical post-event justification from someone fairly dimwitted who thinks of themselves as a great genius.

    I'm sure what actually happened was somthing like this: They were having an emergency board meeting at which someone said "What about the FPPs?" and someone else said "Well we already have the functionality to convert FPPs to cash bonuses so let's just use that". Everyone agreed and they moved onto the next item. No conspiracy at all.

    They paid back the account balances in full in a timely manner. They even refunded T$ and W$ at full face-value when they were under no direct obligation to do so. They traded at around 95% of face value so people made money there. FPPs were just loyalty points. They could have declared them all worth 1c, or less, but instead they used a reasonable reimbursement method. I really think Stars have done enough here to be given a pass. I was unaware that people with less than $100 hadnt been paid. That's a MUCH more serious issue if true.

    I actually think there's a very high chance Stars will return to the US. They'll get the law changed and plea bargain their "crime" down to a $250 mill fine or something. Prohibition always loses in the end. When it does I'm very confident that every player's uncashed balance will be restored.

  19. #39
    Gold Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShawnFanningsLimpDick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    You also doubt that Stars didn't realize they were screwing players out of FPP value, but rather were just slapping something together really quickly that the DOJ would approve. I highly doubt that. You're talking about a company with a history of one brilliant business decision after another. You're talking about a company with a 9-year history of amazing attention to detail. Furthermore, it's not like someone put a gun to Isai Scheinberg's head and told him to come up with an FPP reimbursement plan within 5 minutes. Even if Stars wanted to come up with something "quickly", they definitely had enough time to realize that their plan was screwing their US players out of big time value.

    I don't feel sorry for billionaires because they can't make quite as much money as they used to. Those billionaires still need to pay what they owe.
    Well I don't think Black Friday was part of Stars' brilliant strategy. Of course the DoJ wouldve agreed to a flat rate. I'm in total agreement with you that Negreanu's statement is a nonsensical post-event justification from someone fairly dimwitted who thinks of themselves as a great genius.

    I'm sure what actually happened was somthing like this: They were having an emergency board meeting at which someone said "What about the FPPs?" and someone else said "Well we already have the functionality to convert FPPs to cash bonuses so let's just use that". Everyone agreed and they moved onto the next item.

    No conspiracy at all.
    I agree that this was likely the conversation, but I GUARANTEE there was someone who spoke up and said "but the minimum is 2,500... what about the remainder of those?" And somebody else said sometihng along the lines of "they'll be happy to get anything... go with it"
    I write things about poker at my Poker Blog and elsewhere on the Internets

  20. #40
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    I didn't contact pokerstars for an echeck as it was only 8.00. However i remember their was nothing telling me how to get it and also there would be no way i would give a company any account info when im not going to be doing any business with them. Also why can't they send a check for 8.00 if they can for 100.00 seems weird to me. But your right its my fault i did't push it further.

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