The Hand That May Have Knocked Me Out of Tournament Poker

[BCR]

You just described a textbook panic attack. Fatigue, intense concentration, and then a shot of adrenaline fried your system temporarily. Did everything take on a surreal feel, through the looking glass point of view?

The last one I had was playing at Fallsview in Canada in 2007. I had played like 20 hours, wasn't feeling great, and was fueling my energy level with a bunch of coffee. Nothing bad happened, I just grew weary enough where I had to quit, and after a few steps away from the table it hit. I felt my entire body stiffen, got dizzy. I sat down for a few moments, and decided to try and get to my room. I was walking like Frankenstein because my legs were stiff, and my neck actually went numb also. Very strange, and I was embarrassed at the way I was walking even though no one was around besides the front desk girl.

I had anxiety attacks before, and had Xanax in my bag in my room, and even with that I didn't feel right for like 3 hours. The ones I had previously were more mild, and more shortness of breath/cold sweat type ones. That was the worst physical one where I could barely walk.

You probably just have something working on you and were tired. Were you drinking a lot of caffeine throughout the day?

I have known a handful of people that once they have their first continue to get them for awhile, but yours sounds more like an acute perfect storm situation.

I almost have to pop a xanax just reading some of the past 408 and China posts that talk of ingesting ripped fuel, and ECA stacks when dieting, because that stuff is the main culprit for most I knew that developed chronic panic attacks.

Better luck next year. You'll be ready to get back on that horse by then.

Maybe it was a panic attack. To me it seemed more like shock. And shock seemed more appropriate, given that I was kind of shocked that I was suddenly out after all of this time and effort. I wasn't really panicking because I knew there wasn't any kind of terrible consequence for being out. It just sucked big time, and there was intense disappointment and some anger at myself, as well.

The surreal feeling came at the peak of the symptoms. I couldn't stand, or even sit down without putting my head down. When I tried to look, my vision was blurry and I was very dizzy. My mind actually was 100% though, and I was trying to talk myself through it. I had no problem walking once the feeling passed after about 20 minutes. As I said, when the top of my head filled with sweat, I knew it was about to pass.

I didn't have much caffeine -- just one Pepsi many hours earlier. Caffeine never affects me negatively, anyway. I can sleep fine after ingesting a lot of it, and it does not make me jittery or anything else.

I think this was kind of a meltdown from the intense frustration of both the situation (27 hours of mostly well-played poker just to bust in a marginal situation and lose $10k) and the anger at myself for almost choosing the option that would have saved me, but going the other way.

It sounds like a mild panic attack physically, plus you have lost more equity in a thousand spots before I'm sure at the levels you've played, and yet had such a different reaction this time. The term is a bit of a misnomer. I never got them as a result of something that panicked me. They create panic because you get worried something is seriously amiss when you feel so strange. Some get intense fight or flight responses, but I never did. Either way, talking yourself through is the way to get them to pass. The first time I got one I was healthy enough to not have had recent medical tests of any sort. I allowed myself to consider it was something really wrong, and it got worse. Once I knew I was fine physically, it's much easier to relax your way out of them. Like I said, I haven't had one in 6 years.

Maybe it was just shock. Same result for the most part as long as it doesn't persist. I have never played a big multi-day tournament, but the 6 hour ones online where you have a shot were always a strange emotional investment of energy for me. I probably wouldn't be built for a multi-day one. Like you said, it's hard to change what you are. Unfortunately for you, you are actually pretty good at them, so it will suck if it happens again and you can't play them anymore. I imagine with the way you started, you have a really good roi lifetime, which is pretty rare for tournament poker.

You might actually be relieved if you get the flu or something in the next few days. It will explain why you reacted so differently this time, and you can just chalk it up to a weakened immune system.

[TheXFactor]

Looking over some of the updates from Pokernews, alot of pros got eliminated from the WSOP,
with hands like AK vs AA. It was the right play, you just should've had alot more chips so you could survive.

Your panic attack should be a wake up call, you are not healthy and out of shape.
Maybe you should change your bad habits and become a serious player, like Daniel Negreanu.

Get a personal trainer.
Stop eating crap, become a vegan.
Start living healthy, go to sleep early, run several miles every day, play some sports.

Then when your 50 years old, you can enter the seniors event at the WSOP.

[Pooh]

Maybe it was a panic attack. To me it seemed more like shock. And shock seemed more appropriate, given that I was kind of shocked that I was suddenly out after all of this time and effort. I wasn't really panicking because I knew there wasn't any kind of terrible consequence for being out. It just sucked big time, and there was intense disappointment and some anger at myself, as well.

The surreal feeling came at the peak of the symptoms. I couldn't stand, or even sit down without putting my head down. When I tried to look, my vision was blurry and I was very dizzy. My mind actually was 100% though, and I was trying to talk myself through it. I had no problem walking once the feeling passed after about 20 minutes. As I said, when the top of my head filled with sweat, I knew it was about to pass.

I didn't have much caffeine -- just one Pepsi many hours earlier. Caffeine never affects me negatively, anyway. I can sleep fine after ingesting a lot of it, and it does not make me jittery or anything else.

I think this was kind of a meltdown from the intense frustration of both the situation (27 hours of mostly well-played poker just to bust in a marginal situation and lose $10k) and the anger at myself for almost choosing the option that would have saved me, but going the other way.

It sounds like a mild panic attack physically, plus you have lost more equity in a thousand spots before I'm sure at the levels you've played, and yet had such a different reaction this time. The term is a bit of a misnomer. I never got them as a result of something that panicked me. They create panic because you get worried something is seriously amiss when you feel so strange. Some get intense fight or flight responses, but I never did. Either way, talking yourself through is the way to get them to pass. The first time I got one I was healthy enough to not have had recent medical tests of any sort. I allowed myself to consider it was something really wrong, and it got worse. Once I knew I was fine physically, it's much easier to relax your way out of them. Like I said, I haven't had one in 6 years.

Maybe it was just shock. Same result for the most part as long as it doesn't persist. I have never played a big multi-day tournament, but the 6 hour ones online where you have a shot were always a strange emotional investment of energy for me. I probably wouldn't be built for a multi-day one. Like you said, it's hard to change what you are. Unfortunately for you, you are actually pretty good at them, so it will suck if it happens again and you can't play them anymore. I imagine with the way you started, you have a really good roi lifetime, which is pretty rare for tournament poker.

You might actually be relieved if you get the flu or something in the next few days. It will explain why you reacted so differently this time, and you can just chalk it up to a weakened immune system.

100% it was a panic attack. I got my first attack last October and it put me in the emergency room because I thought I was dying. A few other real bad ones came in mid December. Same symptoms. Mine actually came with a bought of agoraphobia where it was difficult to go into public places and I had fight or flight where I just panicked and left areas as well. Never had a problem socially before either. I'm on medication and I haven't had one since. Not fun.

My main symptoms were light headedness and inability to walk...shaking legs.

[simpdog]

Druff I feel bad you felll just short but Jesus was a min cash that important to you over the long run?

Obviously all pros feel more for the main event but that's why it is so special and only once a year.

Take a week off of poker and the forums. Spend time with the family.

You didn't get knocked out with aa vs kk aipf or some massive cooler. Sure it was unlucky that they woke up with AA but even if they fold you don't cash yet for sure.

[fluffer]

It's been about 100 minutes since I busted from the 2013 WSOP Main Event, roughly 175 players short of the money. It's familiar territory for me. In 2011, 2012, and now 2013, I outlasted over 80% of the field, only to fail to cash. This time it was more like 88%.

I couldn't walk away when it was over. And when I say that I couldn't, I don't mean that I didn't want to, or that I wasn't accepting that I had lost. I mean that I physically couldn't. For the first time in my almost 13 years of playing poker, I actually went into shock after losing. I had to sit down for almost 20 minutes before feeling physically able to do a 7-minute walk back to my room.

But why?

 

 

 

 

[varys]

Druff I like you and your posts but wow man you sound like a fish with no concept of tournament variance. Pressure to cash in the main and the highest buyin limit event of the year? It blows my mind that someone that's made seven figures playing this game can actually think like that. Sorry to hear about the panic attack...

[cmoney]

It sounds like a mild panic attack physically, plus you have lost more equity in a thousand spots before I'm sure at the levels you've played, and yet had such a different reaction this time. The term is a bit of a misnomer. I never got them as a result of something that panicked me. They create panic because you get worried something is seriously amiss when you feel so strange. Some get intense fight or flight responses, but I never did. Either way, talking yourself through is the way to get them to pass. The first time I got one I was healthy enough to not have had recent medical tests of any sort. I allowed myself to consider it was something really wrong, and it got worse. Once I knew I was fine physically, it's much easier to relax your way out of them. Like I said, I haven't had one in 6 years.

Maybe it was just shock. Same result for the most part as long as it doesn't persist. I have never played a big multi-day tournament, but the 6 hour ones online where you have a shot were always a strange emotional investment of energy for me. I probably wouldn't be built for a multi-day one. Like you said, it's hard to change what you are. Unfortunately for you, you are actually pretty good at them, so it will suck if it happens again and you can't play them anymore. I imagine with the way you started, you have a really good roi lifetime, which is pretty rare for tournament poker.

You might actually be relieved if you get the flu or something in the next few days. It will explain why you reacted so differently this time, and you can just chalk it up to a weakened immune system.

100% it was a panic attack. I got my first attack last October and it put me in the emergency room because I thought I was dying. A few other real bad ones came in mid December. Same symptoms. Mine actually came with a bought of agoraphobia where it was difficult to go into public places and I had fight or flight where I just panicked and left areas as well. Never had a problem socially before either. I'm on medication and I haven't had one since. Not fun.

My main symptoms were light headedness and inability to walk...shaking legs.

I would bet my life on it as well that it was a panic attack. I have gotten these before and it is the most unpleasant experiences one can have. The symptoms are exactly the same as Druff described. I notice that people that are in their heads a lot ( I am one of those people) are much more likely to get them than other people. Hopefully the panic attack was just a one time thing triggered from stress. Btw, even though long term stress is not good, panic attacks will not give you a heart attack. It is your bodies reaction to perceived danger like a wild animal chasing you. This "fight or flight" response was great thousands of years ago for ones survival but not great when in the RIO on a bench.

[cmoney]

Not to sound mean but if after a few tournaments this year Druff feels like this you have to wonder how Micon can handle several years of fail at the WSOP?

I don't want to comment on Micon, and truthfully I can't comment on how he feels, because he is a different person than me.

I have said for years that tournament poker is very draining, and it will kill you if you do it for a living, unless you're one of the very top players who wins so consistently that they can overcome all of the problematic factors of the lifestyle. But we're talking about very few people here, and even fewer when you consider the ones who blow the money elsewhere and end up broke anyway. It was especially eye-opening when seemingly successful, responsible Gavin Griffin admitted being broke.

I have never been a tournament pro. I am a limit cash pro who plays the WSOP for fun and hopefully to get lucky and hit some nice scores. But this isn't fun anymore if it's going to invoke reactions like what I had tonight. What's funny is I wasn't even going through the day with a fear of busting. I had the attitude of, "If it happens, it sucks, but it's not like I ever had a lot of chips in this thing." That's why my post-bustout reaction was so alarming to me. I think the added torture of having to wait around until the chips got counted, and then having to play out my last 1500, was a contributing factor.

This could have very well been what triggered the panic attack. You were more or less forced to stay in an uncomfortable environment even though you decided your tournament was over. Even though it would have sucked, had you just busted out and simply left you may have been able to avoid the trigger. Feeling like you are going to pass out, sweats, thinking of your own mortality all 100 percent panic attack symptoms.

[Hockey Guy]

I'm actually shocked that this is the first time this has happened to you Todd. Listen to BCR & cmoney, they know what they are talking about.

This was a classic panic attack brought on by stress then an adrenaline dump. I don't want to sound harsh but, you have to learn to deal with it or get out of poker. FTR, I'm out of poker because I couldn't handle it.

[ShadyJ]

Between the podcast and this thread I have never heard someone be so proud of folding. You ask people after the hands are over just so they can lie to you and make you think you made a great laydown. Theres alot of things your good at but NLhe isnt one of them. You dont understand very simple concepts like not turning big pairs into bluffs by 3bet folding them. I think with your math skills if you gave up your prehistoric way of thinking about poker you could be a good player. I'm just not sure in your head anyone can tell you that you play bad. The day you realize this is the day you have a chance to be good at nlhe. Its not an easy thing to do you have to swallow your ego and realize the game has passed you by. Shit even Hellmuth eventually did this somewhat.

[Sloppy Joe]

It definitely sounds like a panic attack.

I had my first one in ~5 years recently when I was up at the lake house alone, was packed and ready to leave the next morning and when I went to unlock my car the battery was completely dead. Cell phone is spotty in rural Virginia and I wasn't getting reception, so calling a service couldn't be done. I cancelled the main phone line years ago because I am not up there much. Feeling helpless, my mind immediately started to race and I felt overwhelmed. I started walking around the neighborhood and finally ran into someone who lent me his external jumper, so I could jump it early in the morning and leave.

Despite having the situation resolved, I still felt horrible. I laid down on the couch, sweating bullets and feeling extremely physically ill, unable to converse with my girlfriend. I told her that I had to shower and stumbled my way into the bathroom. Once the water was on, I proceeded to lay down in the shower for probably 10 minutes. Afterwards, I had a bit of a residual headache but nothing more.

I have had probably three panic attacks in my life and am considering counseling/medication to avoid ever having one again. I would describe myself as a calm person overall but when the anxiety comes I can't handle it.

My doctor gave me a Xanax prescription to have on hand if it happens again. Panic attacks are awful.

See your doctor and get it figured out.

[4Dragons]

PTSD; Poker Traumatic Stress Disorder. Pretty sure you can get a medical marijuana card for that. Stay chill, you can power jew through this.

[JimmyG_415]

Can we finally, as a culture, admit that no one really wins in poker?

That's the funny thing.

I am one of the few who actually did win at poker.

I even won at this year's WSOP (admittedly after losing in 2011 & 12).

I actually had a plan to quit the WSOP at 50, due to the stress it causes. I might actually retire from it 9 years early.

I say "might" because I am fresh off this super-disappointing situation, and might feel differently next June.

But I can't let it get to me this much when I lose. I can't have a repeat of this. I either need a completely different emotional approach (which may be very tough) or I will have to quit tournament poker. I'm talking about for health and emotional reasons, not for monetary reasons. I will still play limit holdem cash games from time to time, as that doesn't have the same effect on me. (This is especially true because no single hand in limit hold 'em devastates you.)

what about those "life coaches" that like Negreanu and Antonio have.
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE CHURCH (although maybe there is a link)

I've read a lot of poker players hire these guys to balance their life, help w/ the tilt factor, health, etc.
Maybe they can help you figure out what happened exactly and if it will again or how to prevent it.
I definitely wouldn't drop the limit one,

My 2 cents, I'd have shoved there all day long. Not thought twice about it.

[Sanlmar]

Countless poker players (perhaps every poker player) have lost under similar circumstances. Felt they played well. Deserved justice and reward for making difficult and unconventional but correct decisions previously. The emotional & physical reactions described trigger memories by every reader who has ever played. Many readers will be compelled to share similar experiences & offer their observations - because they feel they know to some degree how Todd felt.

What makes Todd different is this that his ability to write about it is so fucking good. He wrote that not long after it happened. I thought this would be the start to a great screenplay (Mezrich is gonna make an offer for movie rights). You want to read the need chapter... How does it end?

Todd has the gift for writing and communicating. Great read.

[gut]

Just from my POV, the thought of playing like 25 hours in a tourney and going out still a couple hundred spots from the min cash is just sickening. DO NOT WANT. Even if I had the desire or means to do so, I wouldn't play the ME. Don't want to go through what Druff just did, and I wouldn't want to win the damn thing either. The thought of the temporary fame and press and promo and appearances that would follow would give me one giant anxiety attack.

[Dan Druff]

Between the podcast and this thread I have never heard someone be so proud of folding. You ask people after the hands are over just so they can lie to you and make you think you made a great laydown. Theres alot of things your good at but NLhe isnt one of them. You dont understand very simple concepts like not turning big pairs into bluffs by 3bet folding them. I think with your math skills if you gave up your prehistoric way of thinking about poker you could be a good player. I'm just not sure in your head anyone can tell you that you play bad. The day you realize this is the day you have a chance to be good at nlhe. Its not an easy thing to do you have to swallow your ego and realize the game has passed you by. Shit even Hellmuth eventually did this somewhat.

I asked you this in an earlier thread: How many WSOP events have you played?

Because if the answer is zero (or zero in recent years), you can't really comment accurately on the folding thing, as you wouldn't understand the environment there.

Folding is never wrong if you laid down the worst hand either on the river or for a bad price prior to that.

In many of the cases when I folded, I actually saw the hands that got shown down. In others, there was zero chance the guy was lying, because in many cases he would talk about the hand afterwards (unsolicited), and reveal what he had. And this would be done in such detail (often even questioning themselves) to where I would be 100% sure they're telling the truth. Other times there is commentary attached to what the person had, which makes a lie very unlikely. For example, when I asked the guy what he had with the trip tens hand after I busted, he not only told me he had a ten, but threw in, "I played it bad. I shouldn't have let it get to the river, anyway." If he was lying to me, the answer would have been, "Oh, I had trips", and that would be that. The fact that he commented on his own play made a lie highly unlikely. I heard the sincere frustration with himself in his voice, even though he won the hand.

I usually don't run up to people and ask what they had, and the few times I do, I can usually tell if they are telling the truth or if it's questionable.

Prior to 2010, I played a different style at the Main Event where I folded a lot less. I busted on Day 1 from 2005-2008, and early Day 2 in 2009. Admittedly, in 2005-6 you only started with 10k in chips, and 2007-2008 only 20k in chips, so folding was less correct then, but I still wasn't playing it right. In 2010, I changed to the current style, and I have made deep Day 3s four years in a row -- all without winning monster pots or successions of big hands that luck me into there.

BTW, I don't just fold to any kind of pressure. I made an AK high call to a decent-sized river bet on Day 2, and was shown KQ high. I just assess each situation and figure out what chance there is that I'm screwed, and act from there. I noticed that many players DON'T do this -- they are obsessed with catching bluffs and/or just responding to aggression with aggression.

[Dan Druff]

That's the funny thing.

I am one of the few who actually did win at poker.

I even won at this year's WSOP (admittedly after losing in 2011 & 12).

I actually had a plan to quit the WSOP at 50, due to the stress it causes. I might actually retire from it 9 years early.

I say "might" because I am fresh off this super-disappointing situation, and might feel differently next June.

But I can't let it get to me this much when I lose. I can't have a repeat of this. I either need a completely different emotional approach (which may be very tough) or I will have to quit tournament poker. I'm talking about for health and emotional reasons, not for monetary reasons. I will still play limit holdem cash games from time to time, as that doesn't have the same effect on me. (This is especially true because no single hand in limit hold 'em devastates you.)

what about those "life coaches" that like Negreanu and Antonio have.
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE CHURCH (although maybe there is a link)

I've read a lot of poker players hire these guys to balance their life, help w/ the tilt factor, health, etc.
Maybe they can help you figure out what happened exactly and if it will again or how to prevent it.
I definitely wouldn't drop the limit one,

My 2 cents, I'd have shoved there all day long. Not thought twice about it.

Those life coaches are all what I'd call a semi-scam.

Yes, they may actually help people who feel directionless and need someone holding their hand, but for the most part they make a lot of empty statements that sound good and mean nothing.

Negreanu, for all of his poker success, fame, and likable personality, has been pretty damaged since the death of his mother. This is a guy who is liked and admired by the public, but probably goes to bed feeling alone -- like there is no one in the world who truly loves him. I believe that's what made him so susceptible to Choice Center and their BS.

My father called me when he saw my tweets, and we talked for awhile. He made me feel somewhat better, and I actually felt good enough to open PFA and write this thread.

Regarding the AK hand, it isn't obvious what the right play is. A raise/fold strategy would have worked in this particular case (since the AA guy would have likely shoved, making it obvious what he had), but if the original raiser shoved, I would have been torturing myself wondering if I folded to another AK or TT-QQ. And if they just called (one or both of them), do I c-bet the flop when I missed? Flatting also had some merit, but it also allows me to both get bet off on the flop and to allow coolers to happen that I couldn't get away from (such as A or K high flops where I'm behind otherwise mediocre preflop hands). If I had to do it over again without knowing the cards of my opponents, I would probably raise/fold, and decide on the flop if I want to C-bet based upon how likely it looks to have hit my opponents.

[Dan Druff]

BTW, I got a little insight about my table image from one of my table-mates, a talkative guy in his 20s, as we happened to be in the same elevator at the end of the dinner break.

He volunteered, "You seem really card dead... I see you're trying to mix it up a little there, but looks like you're getting absolutely nothing."

He wasn't trying to screw with me or get in my head. He was honest -- too honest -- about his play, often volunteering what he had and then soliciting other people's opinions of whether he screwed up or not.

I was actually worried that he and others thought I was too tight (since I wasn't entering many hands, due to extreme card-deadedness and frequent raise-reraises in front of me), but his impression was that I was trying to still get into some hands despite a lousy run of cards.

This is important because I think Shady J was advocating that I bluff-raise people and/or assume they are always respecting my bets because I'm a 40-year-old white guy, but that approach wouldn't have worked.

[BeerAndPoker]

Going off a basic strategy not knowing any table dynamics I probably 3 bet fold AK in that spot and I do mix in some flatting lately as well. When your 4 bet or pushed on it becomes a player dependent thing but sometimes if you feel your image is perceived as being a folder and if you think your opponent is not only aggressive but is able to pickup on that then calling it off with AK is fine (not changing the outcome here but just saying).

AK is the hand that makes or breaks so many people in donkaments but when it's AK vs. AA it's really just a cooler. The longer you play to miss out on the money the worse you feel about it but only a little over 10% of the field is getting paid.

[Dan Druff]

Going off a basic strategy not knowing any table dynamics I probably 3 bet fold AK in that spot and I do mix in some flatting lately as well. When your 4 bet or pushed on it becomes a player dependent thing but sometimes if you feel your image is perceived as being a folder and if you think your opponent is not only aggressive but is able to pickup on that then calling it off with AK is fine (not changing the outcome here but just saying).

AK is the hand that makes or breaks so many people in donkaments but when it's AK vs. AA it's really just a cooler. The longer you play to miss out on the money the worse you feel about it but only a little over 10% of the field is getting paid.

Speaking of which, the money just hit (according to David Plastik on my Facebook, who just slipped into it nursing a shortstack for a long time). This means I had about 4 hours of play until cashing when I busted. So as I thought, I would have needed to win at least one other decent-sized hand to stay alive in order to cash.