Bitcoin at all time high

[BCR]

If this is true, and eastern europeans are both holding 80%, and also the ones behind the denial of service/and or hacking attacks, then logically wouldn't it be likely they dumped a ton the other day at $250- $260, and are now tanking the market to acquire more in order to run them up again?

There is nothing illegal is simply holding bitcoins, is there? I understand they are used in practical terms for many illegal things, but I am trying to understand if the logical move should these bitches go way down to some absurd $29 number, the only value to those manipulating the markets is to acquire more, and manipulate them back up again, correct?

It would seem a calculated, but smart risk to buy a 1000 if they hit a number like $29, and just gamble that they will run them up again, wouldn't it? They are doing all the work. You could lose $30k obviously, but it seems a better chance they manipulate it back up to $250 than they go to a penny if they have this capability?

I am not trying to get in the middle of this argument whether this is actually what is going on, both you and dddonedied are far better versed in technology, and I have no clue who is right.

I am just hearing two arguments, his that they are inherently valuable, have useful application, and won't likely be shut down easily. You're arguing that the market is being manipulated by the criminal element in a successful manner, but both those arguments would suggest that taking a winger on an amount you can afford to lose isn't necessarily a bad idea, at least in the short term.


In the time since I started writing this, they have went from $75 back to $120. lulz

I mean, at what number do even the skeptics pounce to buy? There has to be a number where it's simply worth the risk even if you have no firm belief in their long term viability. Rarely does one get a chance to get in low on something like this once you've missed the boat after the initial run up.

BCR, here is the thing. If oyu buy them at $20 I'm sure you'll be fine. There is little that has happened today except that people will be scared to buy bitcoins for signficant purchases. You could probably buy them at 50, but I wouldn't suggest it. 20 seems pretty conservative. BTC may be taking a hit over their volatility, but they are on EVERYONE's radar now. That includes unfortunately the government, but I don't know if they'll step in to "protect investors". meh.

I've never said it wasn't eastern europeans, but thats sonatine's schtick. Always vague conspiracies and act like you have some sorta special info. He may very well be right, but no one has ever really put forth how these "manipulations" are working except DDOS = drop in prices. I think it is a lot more likely to be random speculation. I have no idea what sorta fools would buy btc at $250, but if you have been around gambling you know how degenerate people can be. I'd believe the manipulation conspiracy if someone put forth a solid plan on how it plays out, but I never see it.. just vague ideas people have. And those that push these vague ideas already have a side they are pushing... So their ego is quite vested. See both Sonatine and Druff have hated on btc since the start and both are jumping at the chance to be right about this stuff. And partially they are... but it is easy to do with vagueness.

I, like you, do not understand how BTC went up to $250 via manipulation unless there is a lot of foreign press we're not aware of.

This is a disruptive technology and there is little people have to go on. The only real thing we know is that the US government will become more involved at some point, especially when lobbyists become involved. They'll never have a valid reason to completely ban them though, but maybe so. We also don't read greek news etc, so it is hard to get a feel if there is some pump'n'dump scheme going on in another country. You never had this problem with USD stocks etc, because you can go read the news yourself. So if you are sharp, in the past, you'd be able to read between the lines. Again, it is a technology that is unique and pretty much an unchartered area of history. Most American media is so dumbed down you won't get a real answer either. You're a smart guy, I've always said that. Good luck weeding through the noise.

Thanks for the reply, as I don't know shit. You two don't seem to be as far apart on their real value as it appeared from the limited replies I read. $10 and $20 bucks both seem a reasonable price to take shot. I imagine many people will take a shot if it gets in that area and hope they catch lightning again.

[BetCheckBet]

mtgox down again after another quick crash of 130-90.

[The_PHA]

If this is true, and eastern europeans are both holding 80%, and also the ones behind the denial of service/and or hacking attacks, then logically wouldn't it be likely they dumped a ton the other day at $250- $260, and are now tanking the market to acquire more in order to run them up again?

There is nothing illegal is simply holding bitcoins, is there? I understand they are used in practical terms for many illegal things, but I am trying to understand if the logical move should these bitches go way down to some absurd $29 number, the only value to those manipulating the markets is to acquire more, and manipulate them back up again, correct?

It would seem a calculated, but smart risk to buy a 1000 if they hit a number like $29, and just gamble that they will run them up again, wouldn't it? They are doing all the work. You could lose $30k obviously, but it seems a better chance they manipulate it back up to $250 than they go to a penny if they have this capability?

I am not trying to get in the middle of this argument whether this is actually what is going on, both you and dddonedied are far better versed in technology, and I have no clue who is right.

I am just hearing two arguments, his that they are inherently valuable, have useful application, and won't likely be shut down easily. You're arguing that the market is being manipulated by the criminal element in a successful manner, but both those arguments would suggest that taking a winger on an amount you can afford to lose isn't necessarily a bad idea, at least in the short term.


In the time since I started writing this, they have went from $75 back to $120. lulz

I mean, at what number do even the skeptics pounce to buy? There has to be a number where it's simply worth the risk even if you have no firm belief in their long term viability. Rarely does one get a chance to get in low on something like this once you've missed the boat after the initial run up.

BCR, here is the thing. If oyu buy them at $20 I'm sure you'll be fine. There is little that has happened today except that people will be scared to buy bitcoins for signficant purchases. You could probably buy them at 50, but I wouldn't suggest it. 20 seems pretty conservative. BTC may be taking a hit over their volatility, but they are on EVERYONE's radar now. That includes unfortunately the government, but I don't know if they'll step in to "protect investors". meh.

I've never said it wasn't eastern europeans, but thats sonatine's schtick. Always vague conspiracies and act like you have some sorta special info. He may very well be right, but no one has ever really put forth how these "manipulations" are working except DDOS = drop in prices. I think it is a lot more likely to be random speculation. I have no idea what sorta fools would buy btc at $250, but if you have been around gambling you know how degenerate people can be. I'd believe the manipulation conspiracy if someone put forth a solid plan on how it plays out, but I never see it.. just vague ideas people have. And those that push these vague ideas already have a side they are pushing... So their ego is quite vested. See both Sonatine and Druff have hated on btc since the start and both are jumping at the chance to be right about this stuff. And partially they are... but it is easy to do with vagueness.

I, like you, do not understand how BTC went up to $250 via manipulation unless there is a lot of foreign press we're not aware of.

This is a disruptive technology and there is little people have to go on. The only real thing we know is that the US government will become more involved at some point, especially when lobbyists become involved. They'll never have a valid reason to completely ban them though, but maybe so. We also don't read greek news etc, so it is hard to get a feel if there is some pump'n'dump scheme going on in another country. You never had this problem with USD stocks etc, because you can go read the news yourself. So if you are sharp, in the past, you'd be able to read between the lines. Again, it is a technology that is unique and pretty much an unchartered area of history. Most American media is so dumbed down you won't get a real answer either. You're a smart guy, I've always said that. Good luck weeding through the noise.

You say if you buy in at $20 you are fine. How can you possibly back that up? Instinct?

The big allure of bitcoins is its "unregulated". Maybe the guys that invented it are the ones controlling the market?

Everyone keeps saying there are only 21 Million bitcoins that can be produced. Says who? Maybe the guys who said that, are the same guys that have 1 Billion of these fuckers and are laughing their ass off.

The only reason people say there is a 21 Million cap is because the group that invented these things said so. It's internet. Think about how stupid this is. The guy, or group, who invented bitcoin have yet to be identified. Yet people just assume this formula is honest and decent and trustworthy.

Are you fucking serious? This is worse than gambling, at least casinos are regulated. Even bookies have standards.

[donkdowndonedied]

Thanks for the reply, as I don't know shit. You two don't seem to be as far apart on their real value as it appeared from the limited replies I read. $10 and $20 bucks both seem a reasonable price to take shot. I imagine many people will take a shot if it gets in that area and hope they catch lightning again.

Yes, a reasonable price, but it is all relative. It sounds like only $10 difference, but $20 is 100% more than $10. THats like a guy telling you to buy IBM at 50 and the other at 100. It is actually a very big difference. I think $20 and you'll be in the black soon for sure. $50 and you'd probably be fine too, but I'm not one to give financial advice on investments. If it drops to $10 and I am not close to retirement, I'd bet the farm. lol. I doubt you'll ever see it hit 20 though.

[cmoney]

QFT

If you want to play in the pits then good luck. But realize at least that is what it is. Playing in the pits

Funny how people try to make it out to be so much more.

The only thing you have said that was intelligent on bitcoins was how it could not be a legit currency. But just about everyone has said that. Get in line.

Not sure what it is you are trying to articulate. It's just another keno trap where people are trying to guess numbers. There has never been any demand for this crypto currency.

Just because you do not type in all CAPS anymore does not make you an investment guru. A blind fucking pig could see this "currency" as a fucking joke.

You are not Jim Rogers.

wtf are you talking about?

The post i made in response to yours was to say how I agreed with everything you said.

I was agreeing saying you might as well go gamble in the casino pits as that is what is going on here

And btw, i predicted the crash 4 hours before it happened.

[donkdowndonedied]

You say if you buy in at $20 you are fine. How can you possibly back that up? Instinct?

The big allure of bitcoins is its "unregulated". Maybe the guys that invented it are the ones controlling the market?

Everyone keeps saying there are only 21 Million bitcoins that can be produced. Says who? Maybe the guys who said that, are the same guys that have 1 Billion of these fuckers and are laughing their ass off.

The only reason people say there is a 21 Million cap is because the group that invented these things said so. It's internet. Think about how stupid this is. The guy, or group, who invented bitcoin have yet to be identified. Yet people just assume this formula is honest and decent and trustworthy.

Are you fucking serious? This is worse than gambling, at least casinos are regulated. Even bookies have standards.

Well, I have been watching the market for some time and I also see nothing but bitcoin being adopted more and more. There are lots of people working on bitcoin services. They will do nothing but increase demand. Even if the US clamps down, you still have every other country using them.

How do I know how many BTC there are ? I don't, but I know I can go look at the code if I wish. So can a lot of other people. If it was all some charade, you would 100% know. It is *ALL* public info. You can go look at a blockchain explorer and look at every btc transaction etc. They're definitely there. My PC used to have every transaction etc. There is just no way this would work if there were an extra 1 billion sitting around. It would crash the algorthms or they'd be rejected. It is math. It is logic.

You really need a little background in crypto to understand this stuff. Thats partially why people hate on it so much. I believe some hate on it just because of Micon. If you don't have a basic grasp of crypto it can be really difficult to wrap your head around so many abstract concepts involved.

[BCR]

Thanks for the reply, as I don't know shit. You two don't seem to be as far apart on their real value as it appeared from the limited replies I read. $10 and $20 bucks both seem a reasonable price to take shot. I imagine many people will take a shot if it gets in that area and hope they catch lightning again.

Yes, a reasonable price, but it is all relative. It sounds like only $10 difference, but $20 is 100% more than $10. THats like a guy telling you to buy IBM at 50 and the other at 100. It is actually a very big difference. I think $20 and you'll be in the black soon for sure. $50 and you'd probably be fine too, but I'm not one to give financial advice on investments. If it drops to $10 and I am not close to retirement, I'd bet the farm. lol. I doubt you'll ever see it hit 20 though.

I agree with the difference in prices, but when something was 260 a few days back, and we are talking $10 and $20, it doesn't feel like any traditional stock or commodity market volatility that I have ever seen. I think you are right that it doesn't approach $20 even. I was being optimistic when I said $29, but was thinking $49 would be great to dip a toe in, so if anything, you have disabused me of the notion that $49 would be a lock profit in the short term acting conservatively.

[The_PHA]

The only thing you have said that was intelligent on bitcoins was how it could not be a legit currency. But just about everyone has said that. Get in line.

Not sure what it is you are trying to articulate. It's just another keno trap where people are trying to guess numbers. There has never been any demand for this crypto currency.

Just because you do not type in all CAPS anymore does not make you an investment guru. A blind fucking pig could see this "currency" as a fucking joke.

You are not Jim Rogers.

wtf are you talking about?

The post i made in response to yours was to say how I agreed with everything you said.

I was agreeing saying you might as well go gamble in the casino pits as that is what is going on here

And btw, i predicted the crash 4 hours before it happened.

Well, fuck. I thought you came after me. After what 5+ years. Well no hard feelings, my bad, I misinterpreted. Hoser has basically ruined another thread, his diversionary tactics confused things too much and after a couple wines things got confusing.
You currency analysis was spot on, in that nobody is every going to sell anything with the price jumping 20% in an hour. It's an OTC

[sonatine]

i was discussing this with a gov friend this morning and all he had to say was "when the majority of an entities userbase is in eastern europe, you dont want to be involved."

at this point id put the odds at 80% that eastern euro crimesphere is arbitrarily manipulating this market. it simply has all the hallmarks. its sophisticated, its relentless, and its working.

If this is true, and eastern europeans are both holding 80%, and also the ones behind the denial of service/and or hacking attacks, then logically wouldn't it be likely they dumped a ton the other day at $250- $260, and are now tanking the market to acquire more in order to run them up again?

There is nothing illegal is simply holding bitcoins, is there? I understand they are used in practical terms for many illegal things, but I am trying to understand if the logical move should these bitches go way down to some absurd $29 number, the only value to those manipulating the markets is to acquire more, and manipulate them back up again, correct?

It would seem a calculated, but smart risk to buy a 1000 if they hit a number like $29, and just gamble that they will run them up again, wouldn't it? They are doing all the work. You could lose $30k obviously, but it seems a better chance they manipulate it back up to $250 than they go to a penny if they have this capability?

I am not trying to get in the middle of this argument whether this is actually what is going on, both you and dddonedied are far better versed in technology, and I have no clue who is right.

I am just hearing two arguments, his that they are inherently valuable, have useful application, and won't likely be shut down easily. You're arguing that the market is being manipulated by the criminal element in a successful manner, but both those arguments would suggest that taking a winger on an amount you can afford to lose isn't necessarily a bad idea, at least in the short term.


In the time since I started writing this, they have went from $75 back to $120. lulz

I mean, at what number do even the skeptics pounce to buy? There has to be a number where it's simply worth the risk even if you have no firm belief in their long term viability. Rarely does one get a chance to get in low on something like this once you've missed the boat after the initial run up.

Here's the thing; silkroad? Bitcoins. Deepweb exploit market? Bitcoins. Botnets? Bitcoins and some paypal.

Am I sure eastern euros are manipulating the market? Nope. Is the eastern euro crimesphere basically running off of bitcoins at this point? The evidence is pretty conclusive that it is.

You have hyper motivated, extremely intelligent, loosely affiliated crime orgs who routinely orchestrate 6-8 figure malware/scareware campaigns using a crypto currency that is basically somewhere between a toy and a meme to hide their paper trail.

Suddenly the market starts acting super mother fucking weird. DDoS's occur, prices encounter HUGE swings.

Its hard for me to believe some pimply slav in his parents dystopian post soviet shack didnt just become a millionaire in the last few days. And then he probably got real fucking drunk and banged some krokodil and told his friends how and they all tried it too and now everything is proper fucked because no one is working together, its just a feeding frenzy of speculation based around how one kid realized he could inflate the value by doing something like snowballing a small number of sacrificial coins between multiple wallets, I dont know, but thats the general theme Id expect.

Or not, maybe it was just some weird organic fluctuation and it blew up and then collapsed because thats just something that new currencies do, its possible.

The thing of it is, IMO, I dont think there is a viable economic theory out supporting a functional anonymous currency.

Bitcoins have no standard, there is no backing. So I dont see how its a currency. Its a way to transfer currencies anonymously, which .. makes it sort of an anti-currency.

Like Riboflavin and cmoney said, if you want to speculate, youre hitting the pits. Nothing wrong with that.

But who wants to get paid 10,000$ at noon, get caught in traffic on the way home, and suddenly have 6,000$ worth of bitcoins by the time you log in and execute a sale?

For black/grey market use, clearly there are applications, but no one has convinced me bitcoins are stable enough to use for anything beyond that.

[kmksmkn]

mtgox fb page just posted

We are experiencing a stronger than usual DDoS. We are working in it.

[Muck Ficon]

Yes, a reasonable price, but it is all relative. It sounds like only $10 difference, but $20 is 100% more than $10. THats like a guy telling you to buy IBM at 50 and the other at 100. It is actually a very big difference. I think $20 and you'll be in the black soon for sure. $50 and you'd probably be fine too, but I'm not one to give financial advice on investments. If it drops to $10 and I am not close to retirement, I'd bet the farm. lol. I doubt you'll ever see it hit 20 though.

[sonatine]

When it hits 10 Im going to snatch some up.





Maybe.

Ah, I hadn't yet read this when I posed the questions. I haven't followed these at all, just the discussion of them, and both arguments were pointing to there is a number at which to buy even if you think they are a joke, or don't. I also misread your post as saying they were holding 80%, as opposed to saying you thought there was an 80% chance they were behind manipulation.

As totally uninformed as I am, it's been fun to watch. It would have been more fun had I owned some though back when Micon was handing them out like candy.

honestly tho, id never rule out 80% of bitcoins being circulated by eastern euros.

ive seriously never even heard of legit business using them with any real consistency. the closest was a bunch of suddenly broke cypriots cynically suggesting they were going to dump their own currency to pay their employees via bitcoins.

[sonatine]

mtgox fb page just posted

We are experiencing a stronger than usual DDoS. We are working in it.

id expect more of this as more and more botnet owners wake up and find out they went to bed with $300k in their bitcoin wallets and woke up with $80k.

[The_PHA]

You say if you buy in at $20 you are fine. How can you possibly back that up? Instinct?

The big allure of bitcoins is its "unregulated". Maybe the guys that invented it are the ones controlling the market?

Everyone keeps saying there are only 21 Million bitcoins that can be produced. Says who? Maybe the guys who said that, are the same guys that have 1 Billion of these fuckers and are laughing their ass off.

The only reason people say there is a 21 Million cap is because the group that invented these things said so. It's internet. Think about how stupid this is. The guy, or group, who invented bitcoin have yet to be identified. Yet people just assume this formula is honest and decent and trustworthy.

Are you fucking serious? This is worse than gambling, at least casinos are regulated. Even bookies have standards.

Well, I have been watching the market for some time and I also see nothing but bitcoin being adopted more and more. There are lots of people working on bitcoin services. They will do nothing but increase demand. Even if the US clamps down, you still have every other country using them.

How do I know how many BTC there are ? I don't, but I know I can go look at the code if I wish. So can a lot of other people. If it was all some charade, you would 100% know. It is *ALL* public info. You can go look at a blockchain explorer and look at every btc transaction etc. They're definitely there. My PC used to have every transaction etc. There is just no way this would work if there were an extra 1 billion sitting around. It would crash the algorthms or they'd be rejected. It is math. It is logic.

You really need a little background in crypto to understand this stuff. Thats partially why people hate on it so much. I believe some hate on it just because of Micon. If you don't have a basic grasp of crypto it can be really difficult to wrap your head around so many abstract concepts involved.

You are correct, if not for Micon I bet nobody would know about these things here. I give the guy credit, he brought them to the attention of thousands of people.

With that said, the real risk is counterfeiting. There are TRILLIONS of USD dollars in circulation. No amount of counterfeiting would pose a risk because before any appreciable counterfeiter could ever penetrate the market he would be caught, well before he impacted his neighborhood let alone a economy.

With bitcoins, there is no Secret Service or FBI. These "coins" could already be in the billions, you have no idea. So don't pretend you do. The guys who created them, could be the one's profiting from the swings.

No reputable company is ever going to accept bitcoins as currency. You have crypto cocaine. Too toxic.

All I will say is this. If you have scored a big cash with these coins, be proactive and pay your 39% right away. This is a leak for some IRS agent to start digging around your shit and you don't want that.

[SrslySirius]

If you're enjoying the trainwreck and thirst for tears, you should find this a fine source of entertainment: http://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin

[garrett]

Fascinating stuff, how does it all react to this big of a shake.

[BeerAndPoker]

So the Winklevoss twins own 1% of these shitcoins in existence?

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/04/...-its-close-up/

[mackerdoodle jones]

bitcoins might be my favorite internet thing ever. aside from you guys.

[DirtyErnie]

Well, I have been watching the market for some time and I also see nothing but bitcoin being adopted more and more. There are lots of people working on bitcoin services. They will do nothing but increase demand. Even if the US clamps down, you still have every other country using them.

How do I know how many BTC there are ? I don't, but I know I can go look at the code if I wish. So can a lot of other people. If it was all some charade, you would 100% know. It is *ALL* public info. You can go look at a blockchain explorer and look at every btc transaction etc. They're definitely there. My PC used to have every transaction etc. There is just no way this would work if there were an extra 1 billion sitting around. It would crash the algorthms or they'd be rejected. It is math. It is logic.

You really need a little background in crypto to understand this stuff. Thats partially why people hate on it so much. I believe some hate on it just because of Micon. If you don't have a basic grasp of crypto it can be really difficult to wrap your head around so many abstract concepts involved.

You are correct, if not for Micon I bet nobody would know about these things here. I give the guy credit, he brought them to the attention of thousands of people.

With that said, the real risk is counterfeiting. There are TRILLIONS of USD dollars in circulation. No amount of counterfeiting would pose a risk because before any appreciable counterfeiter could ever penetrate the market he would be caught, well before he impacted his neighborhood let alone a economy.

With bitcoins, there is no Secret Service or FBI. These "coins" could already be in the billions, you have no idea. So don't pretend you do. The guys who created them, could be the one's profiting from the swings.

No reputable company is ever going to accept bitcoins as currency. You have crypto cocaine. Too toxic.

All I will say is this. If you have scored a big cash with these coins, be proactive and pay your 39% right away. This is a leak for some IRS agent to start digging around your shit and you don't want that.

I am a total idiot in regard to these bitcoins, but PHA is right on about paying the gov their due from the earnings. Young me failed to disclose full gambling earnings(w2-g) a few years back and my return was snap audited. My State's Dept of Rev (followed by IRS) have been haunting my returns every year since. Once you are red-flagged those slugs never shake free.

[donkdowndonedied]

With bitcoins, there is no Secret Service or FBI. These "coins" could already be in the billions, you have no idea. So don't pretend you do. The guys who created them, could be the one's profiting from the swings.

No reputable company is ever going to accept bitcoins as currency. You have crypto cocaine. Too toxic.

All I will say is this. If you have scored a big cash with these coins, be proactive and pay your 39% right away. This is a leak for some IRS agent to start digging around your shit and you don't want that.

My degree is in Computer Science from a quality program. I took classes and studied crypto at the lowest mathematical level. I have used crypto at various times in various capacities. I do know what I am talking about. I don't know specific implementation, but I know enough how the world works to realize if there was any conspiracy, some programmer would have brought it up ages ago. People have used the bitcoin codebase for all sorts of forks. It is like blabbing on about the illuminati. Nonsense. Show me real solid evidence, and not some good ol' boys club that Alex Jones snuck into one night.

I have no idea hwat you mean "reputable company". I have a list of companies accepting btc but it is too long to post here. Will large mainstream companies use it for the purchase of tangibles/commodities ? Nah, probably not. There is no reason they would want to. Bitcoins are a great leveler in some regards and opens up payments/global services in a way not previously allowed. They don't fill any need for a lot of companies. They don't have to, that isn't their job.

I have a hard time telling when you are being purposefully obtuse versus really being slow, so I am done, but keep up the trolling. lol @ my diversionary tactics.

The IRS can dig around my shit all they want. I sold most of my BTC waay back. I'm a bit pissed about it, but oh well.