Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 76

Thread: Ivey wins £7m but casino refuses to pay out

  1. #41
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    10158
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    54,811
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    68255750
    I believe Ivey really did notice this irregularity and took advantage of it.

    With that said, the irregularity in the cards is the casino's fault, and if they provide a keen-observing Ivey the edge, then that's part of the game. That's not cheating.

    Cheating is using some sort of device to aid your play, or to have a partner at the casino staff helping you gain an unfair edge. If you notice something that allows you to swing the odds in your favor, and take advantage of it while following all of the game rules, you are not cheating.

    Crockfords needs to pay up.

  2. #42
    Bronze Sitting Out's Avatar
    Reputation
    16
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    219
    Load Metric
    68255750
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I believe Ivey really did notice this irregularity and took advantage of it.

    With that said, the irregularity in the cards is the casino's fault, and if they provide a keen-observing Ivey the edge, then that's part of the game. That's not cheating.

    Cheating is using some sort of device to aid your play, or to have a partner at the casino staff helping you gain an unfair edge. If you notice something that allows you to swing the odds in your favor, and take advantage of it while following all of the game rules, you are not cheating.

    Crockfords needs to pay up.
    what you say makes a lot of sense, but in a court room things can get pretty twisted. The casino seems to think they have a case, but they are going to have an uphill battle. My bet is they "settle out of court." Considering everything, if the casino offered ivey 50%, would he take it? I'd think so.

  3. #43
    Plutonium sonatine's Avatar
    Reputation
    7376
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    33,437
    Load Metric
    68255750
    Quote Originally Posted by Sitting Out View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I believe Ivey really did notice this irregularity and took advantage of it.

    With that said, the irregularity in the cards is the casino's fault, and if they provide a keen-observing Ivey the edge, then that's part of the game. That's not cheating.

    Cheating is using some sort of device to aid your play, or to have a partner at the casino staff helping you gain an unfair edge. If you notice something that allows you to swing the odds in your favor, and take advantage of it while following all of the game rules, you are not cheating.

    Crockfords needs to pay up.
    what you say makes a lot of sense, but in a court room things can get pretty twisted.
    Morally, I think you are 100% right Druff.

    Legally, the house always wins. Zero chance they let a player exploit an edge outside the dynamics of the game strat and keep their winnings.

    An analogy; not so long ago, a fellow worked out the alg generating digital keno numbers. He sat in a hotel room and fed a jackpot number to a player downstairs. They got busted, they got decades in LV slam.

    If Ivey was some random, and if this was Vegas, I expect hed be in jail and no one would think twice about it.
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs

  4. #44
    Serial Blogger BeerAndPoker's Avatar
    Reputation
    1402
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    10,114
    Blog Entries
    20
    Load Metric
    68255750
    If a casino has bad cards it's their fault if someone is able to take advantage of them.

    Crockfords to Phil Ivey:


  5. #45
    Walking Image Library
    Reputation
    387
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    1,627
    Load Metric
    68255750
    Quote Originally Posted by sonatine View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sitting Out View Post
    what you say makes a lot of sense, but in a court room things can get pretty twisted.
    Morally, I think you are 100% right Druff.

    Legally, the house always wins. Zero chance they let a player exploit an edge outside the dynamics of the game strat and keep their winnings.

    An analogy; not so long ago, a fellow worked out the alg generating digital keno numbers. He sat in a hotel room and fed a jackpot number to a player downstairs. They got busted, they got decades in LV slam.

    If Ivey was some random, and if this was Vegas, I expect hed be in jail and no one would think twice about it.
    This is wrong. It wasn't some "fellow." He was a computer programmer who worked for the Nevada Gaming Control Board.

    The sick part about this situation was when the a player finally beat Keno the player was immediately investigated. So the casino has a game with such a big edge and low chance of hitting the big number that when you win you are under suspicion and called a crook. The casinos are the crooks.

    Last edited by bukowski72; 05-17-2013 at 07:51 PM.

  6. #46
    Plutonium sonatine's Avatar
    Reputation
    7376
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    33,437
    Load Metric
    68255750
    Ok, you guys have fun in this thread.
    "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

    "America is not so much a nightmare as a non-dream. The American non-dream is precisely a move to wipe the dream out of existence. The dream is a spontaneous happening and therefore dangerous to a control system set up by the non-dreamers." -- William S. Burroughs

  7. #47
    Gold rickastley's Avatar
    Reputation
    87
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    1,525
    Load Metric
    68255750
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I believe Ivey really did notice this irregularity and took advantage of it.

    With that said, the irregularity in the cards is the casino's fault, and if they provide a keen-observing Ivey the edge, then that's part of the game. That's not cheating.

    Cheating is using some sort of device to aid your play, or to have a partner at the casino staff helping you gain an unfair edge. If you notice something that allows you to swing the odds in your favor, and take advantage of it while following all of the game rules, you are not cheating.

    Crockfords needs to pay up.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...st_read_module

    A gambler who is suing Britain’s oldest casino for withholding his £7.8 million payout has admitted he did win the cash by ‘reading’ the cards. Phil Ivey, dubbed the Tiger Woods of poker, says he used a legitimate technique called ‘edge sorting’ to identify cards during a game of punto banco, a type of baccarat based purely on luck. But he vehemently denies cheating. However, Mayfair club Crockfords believes he ‘operated a scam’ and claims he ‘acted to defeat the essential premise of the game’ – and is refusing to hand over his winnings. Mr Ivey – a professional American poker player – is suing the casino in the High Court and the case, the biggest legal battle in casino history, is due to be heard later this year.

    In May, The Mail on Sunday reported details of Mr Ivey’s win – and revealed that the casino had not paid out because it believed he had been reading the cards. In his court submission – seen by The Mail on Sunday – multi-millionaire Mr Ivey, 37 admits to being an ‘advantage player’ – someone who uses legal ways to gain a mathematical advantage over the casino. Playing punto banco over two nights in August last year, Mr Ivey says he was able to exploit tiny flaws in the design of the cards – asymmetrical pattern differences on the rear that are the result of mistakes made during the manufacturing process. It was well known in the industry around this time, according to Mr Ivey’s claim, that players might be able to use imperfectly cut cards to their advantage.



    Because of this, the claim adds, the casino should have thoroughly checked them before use. On his visit to Crockfords, Mr Ivey was accompanied by a Chinese associate known as Kelly, who was adept at ‘identifying the design flaws’. Mr Ivey’s claim says: ‘During the second session on August 20 [Mr Ivey] made various requests for decks of cards to be changed at the end of hands with which [Crockfords] chose to comply. This continued until Kelly identified a deck or decks of cards where the pattern on the reverse side of the cards was asymmetrical (in that one “long’’ side was different from the opposite side).’ Outlining how the pair managed to ‘edge sort’ the deck, the claim says: ‘Kelly would ask the dealer to reveal each card in turn by lifting the edge furthest from the dealer so that Kelly could identify whether the card was a seven, eight, or nine – the key cards in punto banco.

    The first time that Kelly identified a key card, she told the dealer that it was a 'good' card which she wanted the dealer to rotate in the opposite direction to all the other cards and the dealer complied with the request. ‘In this way, the long edges of the key card became distinguishable from those of the other cards.’ Over the course of time, ‘the cards in the deck were increasingly orientated so that “good” and “bad” cards faced in the opposite direction’. This meant that Mr Ivey was later able to recognise the key cards and bet accordingly.

    Initially, he was betting £50,000 a hand but, having edge sorted the cards, he asked the casino’s permission to raise the maximum stake to £150,000. Mr Ivey maintains in his claim that Crockfords’ owners were well aware how edge sorting worked and only have themselves to blame. He says that casinos frequently accede to advantage players’ special requests because they do not want to deter them from playing. Crockfords, the oldest private gaming club in the world, initially agreed to transfer Mr Ivey’s winnings to his bank account, but has returned only his £1million stake. The casino is owned by Genting, a Malaysian gaming corporation, which sent investigators to London to question employees and scrutinise hours of CCTV footage.

  8. #48
    Gold Charham's Avatar
    Reputation
    113
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,066
    Load Metric
    68255750
    Interesting article. They were so obvious about it I am surprised they were allowed to play. Yet because they were so obvious makes it a better case to get paid. Don't know that game at all, but six figure bets , phii, and a Chinese lady asking to turn cards around must have drawn a lot of attention. All that deck changing. They probably played up the Chinese angle making it seem all the deck changing and card turning were Chinese "luck" strategies. Poorly trained staff means they should have to pay.

  9. #49
    Cubic Zirconia
    Reputation
    8
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    16
    Load Metric
    68255750
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I believe Ivey really did notice this irregularity and took advantage of it.

    With that said, the irregularity in the cards is the casino's fault, and if they provide a keen-observing Ivey the edge, then that's part of the game. That's not cheating.

    Cheating is using some sort of device to aid your play, or to have a partner at the casino staff helping you gain an unfair edge. If you notice something that allows you to swing the odds in your favor, and take advantage of it while following all of the game rules, you are not cheating.

    Crockfords needs to pay up.
    I do not agree that the casino needs to pay up.

    Your above example applies perfectly to card counting, and in that case I totally agree with you. This case is different, its different because in card counting the gaming equipment meets the requirements of the bet "contract" in this case is does not.

    I agree that there was no cheating here. There was no attempt to "effect" the outcome of the game by use of any interfering device or purposefully gaffed equipment. The edge in this game came about as a result of an unintentional and negligent introduction of flawed cards. This flaw put the edge of the game squarely in the hands of the players.

    A bet made on a game in a casino is an unspoken "contract" between the player and the casino. The terms of that "contract" (the rules of the game being played) are different for each game and are required to be readily available to review if anyone desires to do so. This "contract" (the rules) is not created by the casino, but is administered/reviewed and approved by the regulatory body that issues the casino with its licence. In this "contract" will be contained not only the rules of the game but also the requirements for the equipment to meet strict standards of fairness. These standards would include cards, dice, roulette wheels etc..(based on the game in question) to be unbiased and free from intentional or unintentional defect. If it is discovered that this requirement has not been met then the bet is not valid as it is not being made in compliance with the terms of the "contract" Any wins should not be paid and any losses should be refunded.

    Ivey LOVES craps so imagine a similar scenario...

    Instead of Punto Banco he chooses to play craps.
    Instead of winning a huge amount he looses a huge amount.
    Instead of the casino demanding a check of the equipment Ivey demands a check of the equipment.
    Its discovered that the dice are flawed (perhaps a chip, broken corner, not quite square etc) and that this flaw gave the house a huge edge and was genuinely unintentional and missed by the casino (I'm not talking about an intentional cheat effort), just as the card flaw was genuinely unintentional.
    Do you think that the casino should keep all Ivey's money because he was unaware of the flaw (just like they were unaware of the card flaw)? Of course you dont, because even though the flaw was unintentional it gave one side a huge advantage over the other and the game was not played according to the unspoken "contract" that each side makes going in that is written out by the regulatory board and always available for review. It cant work one way and not the other. It can only be a valid wager to be paid OR lost if the terms of that wager are met. In the case of card counting the terms are not violated in the case of defective equipment they are.


    Seca Tekcop

     
    Comments
      
      simpdog: who the hell are you
      
      anonamoose: you're playing badly son
      
      nunbeater: this is like charlie kelly trying to explain the law to mac when dennis isn't around

  10. #50
    NoFraud Poker Room Manager Belly Buster's Avatar
    Reputation
    1346
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    England
    Posts
    3,626
    Load Metric
    68255750
    Quote Originally Posted by Seca Tekcop View Post
    Its discovered that the dice are flawed (perhaps a chip, broken corner, not quite square etc) and that this flaw gave the house a huge edge and was genuinely unintentional and missed by the casino (I'm not talking about an intentional cheat effort), just as the card flaw was genuinely unintentional.
    Do you think that the casino should keep all Ivey's money because he was unaware of the flaw (just like they were unaware of the card flaw)? Of course you dont, because even though the flaw was unintentional it gave one side a huge advantage over the other and the game was not played according to the unspoken "contract" that each side makes going in that is written out by the regulatory board and always available for review. It cant work one way and not the other. It can only be a valid wager to be paid OR lost if the terms of that wager are met. In the case of card counting the terms are not violated in the case of defective equipment they are.


    Seca Tekcop
    WTF?

    Dice biased in the house's favour = punters lose = tough shit = house keeps money.

    Pit bosses are there to be alert to this shit. They were asleep at the wheel. They can stop the game, change the cards ban them etc. But they can't cry foul after the event.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    BTW JACKDANIELS is the first one banned from the thread. He is accusing me of being "duped by a middle aged man who dresses like John Cena"
    #FREEJACK #NEVERFORGET

    NoFraud Online Poker Room: http://nofraud.pokerfraudalert.com:8087. For password resets and reload requests PM me.

  11. #51
    Cubic Zirconia
    Reputation
    8
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    16
    Load Metric
    68255750
    "Dice biased in the house's favour = punters lose = tough shit = house keeps money."

    Your argument, if used as a defence upon discovery of the flaw, would result in the casino losing their licence.

     
    Comments
      
      anonamoose: neg rep to offset the pos rep i gave you by mistake

  12. #52
    Seems a strange move to publicly describe what you were doing in the press (obviously on legal advice). This case will be heard before a judge so there's no jury to get on your side. This seems to be the relevant law http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/19/section/42. The key statement is "cheating at gambling may, in particular, consist of actual or attempted deception or interference in connection with— (a)the process by which gambling is conducted, or ...".

    It's (deliberately) somewhat vague but what Ivey and Kelly were doing could certainly be interpreted as "interference in the process". Not so confident Ivey's going to win here.

  13. #53
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    10158
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    54,811
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    68255750
    The limp dick above is right. Ivey may lose the case on the legal technicalities he noted.

    However, I have to disagree with Seca Teckop.

    His example regarding unfair craps dice is flawed. In your example, if a player loses due to craps dice being unfairly weighted, it is indeed the casino's fault because the burden is on them to provide fair equipment. Even if it's unintentional, the mistake was theirs, and they cannot benefit from it. This is different than when they make a mistake and the player profits from it!

    Your mistake, your loss.

    Similarly, if you show up to the casino wearing the wrong pair of glasses, and it causes you to misread the cards and accidentally make a mistake that you otherwise wouldn't have if you had the right glasses, you can't get your money back.

    The casinos all have a license to provide games that favor them odds-wise. This is a huge advantage for them. They are allowed this because they are the ones providing the gaming equipment, dealers, security, etc.

    As a player, you always have your right to use your brain to notice any flaws in their setup, and play accordingly. It is not up to you to keep the casino at a statistical advantage. You just can't use any equipment of your own to gain an advantage, nor can you utilize inside help from their employees.

    The only exception is where you are directly cheating in some way, even if it doesn't involve outside equipment. For example, some guys discovered a way to trick a video poker machine into paying out 10x what it was actually supposed to. They did not hack the machine or tamper with it in any way, but they were still cheating. Exploiting a bug in a machine to receive 10x the rightfully-owed money is cheating/stealing. They were arrested, and I agree with that arrest.

    Noticing flaws in a deck of cards that allows you to predict optimal cards is NOT cheating. You are still playing the game within the rules and receiving your winnings as allowed by the rules. You're just noticing something extra that gives you an edge. HUGE difference!

  14. #54
    Rest In Peace son of lockman's Avatar
    Reputation
    -113
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    upland ca
    Posts
    1,841
    Blog Entries
    1
    Load Metric
    68255750
    F#ck Ivey that ''Fulltilt'' cheat...

  15. #55
    Diamond shortbuspoker's Avatar
    Reputation
    863
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,047
    Load Metric
    68255750
    Quote Originally Posted by rickastley View Post
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...st_read_module




    Mr Ivey’s claim says: ‘During the second session on August 20 [Mr Ivey] made various requests for decks of cards to be changed at the end of hands with which [Crockfords] chose to comply. This continued until Kelly identified a deck or decks of cards where the pattern on the reverse side of the cards was asymmetrical (in that one “long’’ side was different from the opposite side).’ Outlining how the pair managed to ‘edge sort’ the deck, the claim says: ‘Kelly would ask the dealer to reveal each card in turn by lifting the edge furthest from the dealer so that Kelly could identify whether the card was a seven, eight, or nine – the key cards in punto banco.

    The first time that Kelly identified a key card, she told the dealer that it was a 'good' card which she wanted the dealer to rotate in the opposite direction to all the other cards and the dealer complied with the request. ‘In this way, the long edges of the key card became distinguishable from those of the other cards.’ Over the course of time, ‘the cards in the deck were increasingly orientated so that “good” and “bad” cards faced in the opposite direction’. This meant that Mr Ivey was later able to recognise the key cards and bet accordingly.



    This tells all that needs to be said imo. By Phil's own admission it was clear what he was doing and the pit boss did not shut the game down or change the decks. If the casino knows that there is something that is flawed and skewing the edge from their favor but choose not to change it then they should pay up. It reminds me a lot of a couple years back when one of the Vegas casinos, I think the Venetian, had flawed poker decks and even after being alerted by Jimmy Fricke did not replace them and eventually players who knew the marks began to take advantage.

  16. #56
    Cubic Zirconia
    Reputation
    8
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    16
    Load Metric
    68255750
    Using information presented to you that comes to you without any effort on your part to obtain it, absolves you of the accusation of cheating.

    Phil Ivey did NOT cheat when he played Punto Baco in this casino in London.

    That being said, he is not entitled to the win and the casino is not obligated to pay it.

    Let me give you an everyday example....

    You walk up to a vending machine (Ivey sits at Punto Banco).

    You see that the machine is full of snacks and the cost for a snack is $1 (The casino tray is full of chips and the cost to play is one bet).

    Putting a dollar in the machine is an unspoken contract between you and the vending company $1=1 snack. ( making a bet on the Punto Banco table is an unspoken contract between Ivey and the casino 1 bet= 1 play, a gamble to win or loose based on the fair, unbiased and normal operation of the game).

    After putting in your dollar and pressing the button nothing happens, the machine has a glitch that results in you not getting a snack and not getting your dollar back. Your upset and you have every right to be, why? because the terms of the contract have been violated. You complain to the vending machine company and they offer you the correct resolution either your money back or the snack of your choice. Did they cheat you? NO, they made right the situation after recognizing the glitch.

    This also applies in reverse...

    You put your dollar in and after obtaining your snack, due to a glitch in the machine, you also get your dollar back. You now have information that you would not normally have (due to a printing glitch on the backs of the cards, Ivey had information he would not normally have). You can now use this information to "recycle" the same dollar over and over in the machine to empty it of all of its snacks and also keep your dollar ( Ivey can use this information to "recycle" the bet over and over and empty the casino tray of all its chips and also keep his bet). The vending machine operator sees that you did this on a video camera (casino sees that Ivey did this on surveillance). The vending machine operator stops you from leaving with bag loads of snacks and your dollar (casino refuses to pay off Iveys racks and racks of chips) because of the same reason for why they honored YOUR complaint, namely that the glitch resulted in a violation of the contract between you and them $1=1 snack (one bet=one play of Punto Banco under normal fair and unbiased conditions).

    You did not cheat the vending machine company (Ivey did not cheat the casino) and they cannot go after you on that basis, you simply used the machine as it was set up, BUT, just because you didn't cheat does NOT mean (due to the glitch) that they are obligated to let you have all the snacks and your dollar any more than they would have a right to keep your dollar without a snack due to a glitch. Both cases are a violation of the unspoken and agreed upon terms of the contract that you had with the vending machine company, $1=1 snack.. Likewise the casino is not obligated to pay off Ivey's chips obtained due to a glitch (printing error on the backs of the cards) as again it violates the unspoken contract he made with the house (1 bet= 1 play to win or loose based upon THE NORMAL, FAIR AND UNBIASED OPERATION OF THE GAME).

  17. #57
    Diamond shortbuspoker's Avatar
    Reputation
    863
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,047
    Load Metric
    68255750
    Quote Originally Posted by Seca Tekcop View Post
    .....
    So, you're saying that although they had to know the decks were flawed and chose not to change them or walk Phil off the table, they shouldn't have to pay? His claim says in no uncertain terms that he got them to change decks until he came across a flawed deck. The woman with him then let them know the deck was flawed by saying that those are the good cards. This lies 100% ofn the supervisor that was undoubtedly sanding over that table. They should pay what they owe and fire the pit boss.

  18. #58
    Cubic Zirconia
    Reputation
    8
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    16
    Load Metric
    68255750
    It may be possible that the staff on the table knew that the decks were flawed although its unlikely as that might raise a totally different concern of collusion. The situation even as a result of staff negligece, does not change. The unspoken contract is NOT between you and the staff on the table, its between you and the casino, a contract written by and regulated by the Gaming Commission of the UK and administered in good faith by the staff on the casinos behalf. If the staff were negligent then they should indeed be disciplined or even fired but the casino is not required to honor anything other than the unspoken contract of a normal, fair and unbiased (other than the accepted house edge) game.

  19. #59
    Platinum cmoney's Avatar
    Reputation
    1201
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    2,824
    Load Metric
    68255750
    Quote Originally Posted by Seca Tekcop View Post
    Using information presented to you that comes to you without any effort on your part to obtain it, absolves you of the accusation of cheating.

    Phil Ivey did NOT cheat when he played Punto Baco in this casino in London.

    That being said, he is not entitled to the win and the casino is not obligated to pay it.

    Let me give you an everyday example....

    You walk up to a vending machine (Ivey sits at Punto Banco).

    You see that the machine is full of snacks and the cost for a snack is $1 (The casino tray is full of chips and the cost to play is one bet).

    Putting a dollar in the machine is an unspoken contract between you and the vending company $1=1 snack. ( making a bet on the Punto Banco table is an unspoken contract between Ivey and the casino 1 bet= 1 play, a gamble to win or loose based on the fair, unbiased and normal operation of the game).

    After putting in your dollar and pressing the button nothing happens, the machine has a glitch that results in you not getting a snack and not getting your dollar back. Your upset and you have every right to be, why? because the terms of the contract have been violated. You complain to the vending machine company and they offer you the correct resolution either your money back or the snack of your choice. Did they cheat you? NO, they made right the situation after recognizing the glitch.

    This also applies in reverse...

    You put your dollar in and after obtaining your snack, due to a glitch in the machine, you also get your dollar back. You now have information that you would not normally have (due to a printing glitch on the backs of the cards, Ivey had information he would not normally have). You can now use this information to "recycle" the same dollar over and over in the machine to empty it of all of its snacks and also keep your dollar ( Ivey can use this information to "recycle" the bet over and over and empty the casino tray of all its chips and also keep his bet). The vending machine operator sees that you did this on a video camera (casino sees that Ivey did this on surveillance). The vending machine operator stops you from leaving with bag loads of snacks and your dollar (casino refuses to pay off Iveys racks and racks of chips) because of the same reason for why they honored YOUR complaint, namely that the glitch resulted in a violation of the contract between you and them $1=1 snack (one bet=one play of Punto Banco under normal fair and unbiased conditions).

    You did not cheat the vending machine company (Ivey did not cheat the casino) and they cannot go after you on that basis, you simply used the machine as it was set up, BUT, just because you didn't cheat does NOT mean (due to the glitch) that they are obligated to let you have all the snacks and your dollar any more than they would have a right to keep your dollar without a snack due to a glitch. Both cases are a violation of the unspoken and agreed upon terms of the contract that you had with the vending machine company, $1=1 snack.. Likewise the casino is not obligated to pay off Ivey's chips obtained due to a glitch (printing error on the backs of the cards) as again it violates the unspoken contract he made with the house (1 bet= 1 play to win or loose based upon THE NORMAL, FAIR AND UNBIASED OPERATION OF THE GAME).
    What is interesting here is the "unspoken contract." You are assuming that Ivey is playing a table game just like any other Joe Blow off the street. For many high rollers there are a list of terms and conditions that are agreed upon beforehand to lessen the house odds. For example, money back on losses, how many decks, etc etc. These terms and conditions could be considered the contract and then any bedshit from the casino after these terms were agreed upon were their own fault.

    They owe him the money with interest


    Btw, I am not saying that Joe Blow wouldn't be entitled to the money as well. I am just saying that high rollers tend to have defined terms which in my mind would only further help Ivey's case against the casino.
    Last edited by cmoney; 09-16-2013 at 01:07 PM.

  20. #60
    Cubic Zirconia
    Reputation
    8
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    16
    Load Metric
    68255750
    Your absolutely right about the casino offering high rollers different terms, but they would never make a "bedshit" clause where any game security breaches or errors would be ignored and paid off as if they did not exist. If they did make such a clause and Ivey could produce evidence of it, then this situation will get really fun as the casino will suddenly find themselves in even greater "bedshit" than they already are, with the Gaming Commission of the UK.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Ivey or Oy vey?
    By Seca Tekcop in forum Poker Community Discussion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 07-28-2012, 08:45 AM
  2. William Reynolds Rant on Annie Duke and Phil Ivey
    By SpewArtist in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 07-17-2012, 12:37 PM
  3. Hellmuth & Ivey Going for Another Bracelet
    By Hockey Guy in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 06-20-2012, 03:10 PM
  4. Ivey and Hellmuth to claim bracelets tonight?
    By rickastley in forum Flying Stupidity
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 06-13-2012, 05:05 AM