What is Israel's original sin?Originally Posted by Krypt
What is Israel's original sin?
That’s war pal. The rules of war. You can’t bomb women and children cause you are afraid of your own potential losses.The entire population of Israel is only 9 million. They really cant afford to fight a high casualty war.
The population of Gaza is 2 million with somewhere around 30,000 Hamas fighters who have been entrenched for decades with wide popular support.
Israel's military would be absolutely decimated using your strategy, and probably make them extremely vulnerable not just in the south but also from the East and North. I mean, you can argue Israel shouldn't be in Gaza at all because the collateral damage would be too high, but you cant tell them they have to adopt a strategy that would have tremendous casualties on their side and guarantee they lose. That is a non starter.
Anyways, I dont know if it is the correct strategy or not, but for the first time in a long time Israel appears to actually be fighting to win. For a lot of reasons I think they realize time isn't on their side, and if the Palestinian situation continues to fester any longer, it will be intractable and they will most likely lose on the ground.
The price Israel will pay in the court of world opinion is going to be enormous. Sadly, antisemiticism is going to take a leap forward too.
As an example US support is far more likely to decline than increase.
The odds this conflict increases in scale is also -400 as a result of Israel’s conduct. Israel will suffer casualties on a large scale anyway.
They should have marched on Gaza in pursuit of the enemy. Bombing of civilians like this hasn’t occurred since WWII.
Then again we nuked Japan twice and Kissinger thought limited nukes in the Middle East was reasonable. Maybe I’m a softy.
Thats war? According to who, since when? Whose rules?That’s war pal. The rules of war. You can’t bomb women and children cause you are afraid of your own potential losses.
The price Israel will pay in the court of world opinion is going to be enormous. Sadly, antisemiticism is going to take a leap forward too.
As an example US support is more likely to decline than increase.
The odds this conflict increases in scale is also -400 given their conduct.
They should have marched on Gaza in pursuit of the enemy. Bombing of civilians like this hasn’t occurred since WWII.
You dont seem to have a great grasp of the history of war. The entire idea that your goal should be to minimize the casualties of your enemy is an extremely recent Western idea, that actually hasn't worked out very well, as Western countries dont ever win wars anymore.
We fought WWII to win it, and did what we had to do to win, which included massive bombing of civilians. And since then the wars we have fought have been more or less optional, we have fought to not win, and we generally have not won.
Countries like China, Syria, Russia, Turkey and the Janjaweed in Sudan certainly dont care about limiting enemy casualties, and they are doing just fine comparatively. Also, I would definitely argue the whole Western liberal notion of "thou shall not bomb your enemies cities" would be immediately thrown out the window if we felt it was a war we actually had to win for our own survival.
Israel is fighting this war like they need to win it to survive. Maybe you dont agree with this assessment, but the idea that any country that has the ability to win a war is just going to lose it on purpose and not survive because "those are the rules" is nonsense.
Antisemetism is going to increase anyways for demographic reasons. All the demographic groups that are increasing in Europe and the US are more antisemitic. I think this might actually be a reason Israel is being so aggressive now. They know time isn't on their side, and their "allies" are going to increasingly shift against them regardless, so this may be the last chance to win. In 30 years if there is still Islamofascist terrorists controlling Gaza, countries like Britain and the US might be supplying them with weapons.
wait you seriously think Israel's existence is in the balance here? lmao wow have I got a bridge to sell you
You are correct that in world history is replete with conquering armies raping, pillaging, plundering civilians.Thats war? According to who, since when? Whose rules?
You dont seem to have a great grasp of the history of war. The entire idea that your goal should be to minimize the casualties of your enemy is an extremely recent Western idea, that actually hasn't worked out very well, as Western countries dont ever win wars anymore.
We fought WWII to win it, and did what we had to do to win, which included massive bombing of civilians. And since then the wars we have fought have been more or less optional, we have fought to not win, and we generally have not won.
Countries like China, Syria, Russia, Turkey and the Janjaweed in Sudan certainly dont care about limiting enemy casualties, and they are doing just fine comparatively. Also, I would definitely argue the whole Western liberal notion of "thou shall not bomb your enemies cities" would be immediately thrown out the window if we felt it was a war we actually had to win for our own survival.
Israel is fighting this war like they need to win it to survive. Maybe you dont agree with this assessment, but the idea that any country that has the ability to win a war is just going to lose it on purpose and not survive because they want to limit casualties on the other side is nonsense.
If you want to argue the Geneva Convention is optional if your losses might be too great and future at risk then there you have it.
Except Israel likely won’t exist without allies anyway.
Do any of the countries I mentioned follow the Geneva Convention? It seems it has always been optional, where Western countries have opted into it to some degree, and no one else even bothers.You are correct that in world history is replete with conquering armies raping, pillaging, plundering civilians.
If you want to argue the Geneva Convention is optional if your losses might be too great and future at risk then there you have it.
Except Israel likely won’t exist without allies anyway.
I am not sure Israel has any path to surviving in the long run anyways. In 100 years when most of Europe is Islamic non-whites due to demographic shift (and the US majority Hispanic and Black?) it seems that is going to be game over.
However, IF they have a chance to survive they have to solve the Palestinian issue, and the Palestinian leaders realize time is on their side so they are never going to make any peace. There is pretty much no reasonable concession Israel could make that the Palestinians would agree to. So Israel would have to unilaterally force peace if it has any chance of surviving. I dont actually know what Israel's long term game plan is (or if they even have one), but I think it is pretty clear if they keep playing by the rules being dictated to them by the Arab and Western world, there is no way to win.
germany was hurling the first missiles at gb's population. the western response was just that.
What is Israel's original sin?
he thought he came up with a clever retort but he didn't understand it.
on a positive note, he is probably the only one here with worse sports picks than you.
@Kalem
Well played sir. The most cogent thoughts on the subject I’ve come across in a while.
I’ll offer you a draw. lol.
Depends on the time frame. The BDS movement really seems to be picking up steam, around the world. At some point it is going to really impact Israel economically. And advances in drone technology and other military warfare could make it so terrorist groups could threaten Israel enough it will impact investment in the country.
And for demographic reasons the US and Europe will invariably support Israel less and less as time moves on. I think the Palestinian problem needs to be solved soon or it is going to be bad news for Israel. Once the problem is solved, Israel could potentially try to mend bridges. Look at Assad. He won and all the people who were fighting him are slowly making their peace with the fact he won and normalizing relations. China mercilessly crushed their domestic Islamic population, and everyone is ok with this after the fact. It will be more complicated with Israel for historical reasons (mainly historical antisemitism in Arab/Muslim populations), but still their best chance for normalizing relations with the world might just be doing what it takes to win now, and forcing a real peace.
I think the Palestinians and their allies actually recognize if they can hold on and keep peace from happening a few more generations they will gain the upper hand. And Israel is going to have to unilaterally force peace if there is going to be any.
What am I missing here?
Hamas broke the ceasefire on October 7th with a cross border raid that killed hundreds and shot thousands of missiles into Israel. They broke the recent ceasefire by firing rockets into Israel (maybe they knew the writing was on the wall when Israel demanded back all the young women being kept as sex slaves which was a deal breaker, so Hamas was just getting a few shots in preemptively, I dont know). All indications are the Palestinians are fighting back to the best of their abilities, still committed to the destruction of Israel, and promise more October 7ths. The Palestinian people overwhelmingly support Hamas and the fight against Israel.
So it seems the Palestinians want to fight until Israel is destroyed, and are committed to it, but the expectation is Israel should let them? If not let them win, at least let them permanently maintain the status quo ability to threaten and attack Israel at their discretion, until such time in the future until they can win?
Why would Israel follow these rules?
I have no particular interest in Israel or generally this part of the world. I am pretty confident I will never take a single step anywhere in the entire Middle East, and I am ok with that. I can even accept the world would be a much simpler place if there was no Israel. But there is an Israel, that has been around over 75 years with millions of people, that seems like it wants to survive and not be endlessly attacked by Palestinians intent on a generational struggle to conquer Israel.
And given this, the entire dynamic of the Palestinians get to attack Israel when they want and do whatever they can to conquer Israel (which isn't much right now admittedly) and Israel has to just live with it, makes no sense. What other country would put up with this? Certainly not the United States or any Muslim country. So what are we even doing here?
I support any and all efforts to permanently eradicate and destroy Islam
putrid and foul prehistoric ideology
in the end you lose motherfuckers
ive been to Jordan, Bahrain, Egypt, and Oman
fuck Islam fuck all muslims
No middle ground here no sitting down to hash things out
this is an ideological religious war not territorial
fuck Palestine and fuck all muslim swine
Islam is the biggest poison on this planet
been all over the middle east
you smelly baby rapers will find out soon enough
i wish I was younger so I could join the armed forces in some capacity to wipe out the scourge of Islam
see you in the afterlife fuckers
The reason all workers deserve a living wage is because all workers need to be alive. Not very complex.
I am very not religious, respect other people, leave people alone and been saying this for years- Just leave the Jewish people alone. Live and let live.
Does it bother you when they are in relationships with non-joos like other minority pairings?
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