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Thread: *** OFFICIAL 2020 Democratic Presidential Nomination Race Thread ***

  1. #561
    CORN POP, GET OUT OF THE POOL! CUT THE MALARKY!
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  2. #562
    Kinda feel like if Bernie would drop out, it'd be curtains for Biden, and Warren would get the nom fairly easily. But he'll stay in and block Warren and help Biden get the nom. I think it'll cause resentment against Bernie from progressives in this scenario.

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by SPIT this View Post
    Today I learned that Warren is 70 years old. Only 6 years younger than Biden. I honestly thought she was in her 50s
    Thatís how you look when you havenít had a hard days work in your entire life.

    Basically been in academia her entire career then politician.

     
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      MumblesBadly: You have no fucking idea how much work is required to succeed at that level in academia.

  4. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by Texter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SPIT this View Post
    Today I learned that Warren is 70 years old. Only 6 years younger than Biden. I honestly thought she was in her 50s
    Thatís how you look when you havenít had a hard days work in your entire life.

    Basically been in academia her entire career then politician.
    Idk, Bernie hasn't worked a day in his life and he looks 90

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by SPIT this View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Texter View Post

    Thatís how you look when you havenít had a hard days work in your entire life.

    Basically been in academia her entire career then politician.
    Idk, Bernie hasn't worked a day in his life and he looks 90

    Being married to a woman will do that to you.

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by Texter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SPIT this View Post
    Idk, Bernie hasn't worked a day in his life and he looks 90

    Being married to a woman will do that to you.
    So much for the Warren lesbian rumors

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post

    once the government gives out free stuff, it will never end.

    trump actually ran on repealing and replacing obamacare, had a republican congress and senate as well as a conservative supreme court, and still couldn't get rid of it.

    you would need such a fail that it would threaten the existence of the country itself (like a venezuela situation) before single payer would get repealed.
    Wouldn't have to turn into Venezuela.

    Picture this:

    Socialized medicine passes.

    Medical profession totally not ready for it, and idiot politicians didn't expect the various complications of such a switch. Tons of fail occurs. Utilization goes WAY up (as it will), causing 6-month-type wait lists for doctor visits, tests, and procedures, except in dire emergencies. People cannot see the doctor when they need to, and pretty soon the media picks up on this and there's a tremendous backlash. Everyone just wishes they could go back to the old system. Democrats keep saying to give it time and wait for the kinks to be worked out, but the fail continues, and the waits to get an appointment are staggering.

    Next election comes. Republicans hammer this hard. Democrats have little to say other than "lol it works in Europe and Canada, just give it time and it'll be great". People don't buy it. Big win for Republicans on the promise this will all be repealed. They repeal it quickly and return it to some form of the old system.
    i really don't understand why you think that other countries can do this successfully, but americans can't. i think i'm more optimistic than you about our capabilities.

    but aside from that fact, can you cite a government handout that was given to americans that was later taken away?

    druff: "republicans will repeal it quickly and return it to some form of the old system." -- are you hearing yourself?

    trump couldn't even repeal even obamacare with an entirely republican government, even though that was his core campaign promise. and you think they'll come up with an entirely new system to replace a vastly more complex socialized medicine program -- after the insurance companies will have likely been made obsolete?

    single payer would have to be an unbelievably catastrophic fail for that to happen.

  8. #568
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    Wouldn't have to turn into Venezuela.

    Picture this:

    Socialized medicine passes.

    Medical profession totally not ready for it, and idiot politicians didn't expect the various complications of such a switch. Tons of fail occurs. Utilization goes WAY up (as it will), causing 6-month-type wait lists for doctor visits, tests, and procedures, except in dire emergencies. People cannot see the doctor when they need to, and pretty soon the media picks up on this and there's a tremendous backlash. Everyone just wishes they could go back to the old system. Democrats keep saying to give it time and wait for the kinks to be worked out, but the fail continues, and the waits to get an appointment are staggering.

    Next election comes. Republicans hammer this hard. Democrats have little to say other than "lol it works in Europe and Canada, just give it time and it'll be great". People don't buy it. Big win for Republicans on the promise this will all be repealed. They repeal it quickly and return it to some form of the old system.
    i really don't understand why you think that other countries can do this successfully, but americans can't. i think i'm more optimistic than you about our capabilities.

    but aside from that fact, can you cite a government handout that was given to americans that was later taken away?

    druff: "republicans will repeal it quickly and return it to some form of the old system." -- are you hearing yourself?

    trump couldn't even repeal even obamacare with an entirely republican government, even though that was his core campaign promise. and you think they'll come up with an entirely new system to replace a vastly more complex socialized medicine program -- after the insurance companies will have likely been made obsolete?

    single payer would have to be an unbelievably catastrophic fail for that to happen.
    Obamacare sucks and wasn't implemented well, but it's not a catastrophe. I can still see doctors quickly and can still get tests done quickly, and I get similar coverage. It's just WAY more expensive (by like a factor of 4 now) in premiums, and the selection of good doctors is immensely reduced.

    But if we get to the point where it's a 6 month wait to see a specialist, then yes, the people will demand an immediate change.

    And it's not that we CAN'T have socialized medicine done the same way as the other countries -- it's just that we won't. Look how badly Obamacare was bungled. They rolled out a non-working website (for $560 million, no less) and health plans were canceled because they didn't have maternity care for men (this actually happened to me).

    So there's no chance that a socialized system in the US would involve a complete redo of the compensation structure which would fully emulate the other countries. It would just shift the bill to the government. This is also why Bernie, Warren, and company aren't claiming we're going to get big savings from any kind of restructure -- only that we're cutting out the middleman and its profits. Which, as I pointed out, is almost meaningless.

    Also, Americans aren't used to waiting months to get appointments with specialists or certain tests. They're also not used to getting declined for certain tests they want. These are realities in a socialized system. I used to talk about it on forums and Facebook, and people in those countries would scold me and tell me I was just repeating right wing American talking points. I almost believed they were right, until I joined Facebook groups for people with actual health issues (ones similar to mine last year), and I saw frequent complaining about how difficult it was for them to see doctors and get tests approved. These weren't people arguing politics -- it was people who just wanted to get tested and get better. I remember seeing it and realizing that, as much as Obamacare sucks, I felt lucky at that moment to be American.

  9. #569
    It’s a very complicated issue and interesting to read the debate.

    I have a hunch the US system went irretrievably off the rails when employers started offering health insurance.

    My recollection is that it was a dodge of the wage freeze during the Great Depression (not 2008 - the other one).

    “I can’t give you more money to attract you but I will offer you a benefit”

    Thank the Democrats and Roosevelt for the unintended consequences you suffer

    Some shit just can’t be fixed without revolution. You fucked up - you pay the price

    The assumption that the US must be better than other countries is amusing egocentrism

    Carry on

  10. #570
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    "Also, Americans aren't used to waiting months to get appointments with specialists or certain tests. They're also not used to getting declined for certain tests they want."

    Plenty of Americans aren't used to having proper or even adequate healthcare, let alone tests they need.
    Tests should be about what is needed, not wanted by the patient.

  11. #571
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanlmar View Post
    Itís a very complicated issue and interesting to read the debate.

    I have a hunch the US system went irretrievably off the rails when employers started offering health insurance.

    My recollection is that it was a dodge of the wage freeze during the Great Depression (not 2008 - the other one).

    ďI canít give you more money to attract you but I will offer you a benefitĒ

    Thank the Democrats and Roosevelt for the unintended consequences you suffer

    Some shit just canít be fixed without revolution. You fucked up - you pay the price

    The assumption that the US must be better than other countries is amusing egocentrism

    Carry on
    The healthcare being offered by employers began in an age when people were typically with a company for a long time (or for life), and the company was seen as taking on a parental role. The company would give you health insurance (which covered almost everything), dental insurance, vision insurance, and sometimes even help with your children's education expenses (which were also much cheaper at the time, even adjusted for inflation.)

    The idea was, "You're giving us 40 hours a week for your entire working life, we are going to take care of you like you're family."

    This is obviously no longer the case with most people. People switch jobs often. Companies are less loyal to employees, and employees are less loyal to them. This is all fine, and it's a natural change over the progression of time and society, but the health insurance portion remains, and it's kind of a relic of the old way of thinking.

    You are correct that some of the health insurance costs are an indirect result of it. With employers paying the premiums, and with little out-of-pocket expenses for the typical patient, there was no pain felt by the average person for high medical bills. Insurance companies would foot the bill, which in turn would be passed along to the employers in the form of higher premiums.

    In 2000, the small company I worked for had to switch from a "reimbursement of your health insurance bill" model to a small-group-insurance model, when a few newer employees couldn't qualify for individual insurance. The CEO of the company, who loved to come into my office at the end of the day and talk to me about politics and other general life stuff, told me that he was shocked at how expensive the small group plan was, and how he felt the company was being gouged. It was tremendously more expensive that the individual plans -- like staggeringly more. The reason? Back then, individual insurance was only granted to healthy people not expected to incur large medical bills. Once you cover everyone, the true cost of health care is revealed, and it had already spiraled out of control.

    That was 19 years ago. Today it's a far worse version.

    When you're at a buffet, do you worry about how much each individual item you're taking costs the owner? I doubt it. You just grab what you think looks possibly good, and shove it on your plate. If you had to pay for each item, you wouldn't eat this way. Health insurance is the same way, but it's even worse. Imagine that, each time you grab something you want at the buffet, the owner not only has to pay for the food itself, but super-inflated costs for the silverware, the plates, the napkins, and even the ketchup or other condiments you use. That's basically US healthcare. The consumer just grabs what he or his doctor want, the prices are super-inflated and piecemeal, and nobody cares because the vast majority of the bill is being paid by insurance. As you might guess, moving this burden to the government will just make things worse, not better.

  12. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salty_Aus View Post
    "Also, Americans aren't used to waiting months to get appointments with specialists or certain tests. They're also not used to getting declined for certain tests they want."

    Plenty of Americans aren't used to having proper or even adequate healthcare, let alone tests they need.
    Tests should be about what is needed, not wanted by the patient.
    Correct. Tests should be about what's "needed", and I agree that there's a lot of waste there in the US. However, the long waits and denials in socialized medicine countries come from overutilization. There's only so many facilities and test machines to go around, so if there's high demand, there's a wait. And when there's such a long wait, uncomfortable decisions have to be made regarding "need". And since medicine is very subjective regarding the need for tests (there's rarely an absolute standard of such a thing), some people are wrongfully denied access to such tests.

    You also say "plenty of Americans aren't used to having proper or even adequate healthcare".



    Obamacare actually fixed that. Almost all Americans can now get health insurance. The poor get it free. Many working people get it through their jobs anyway. The middle-class and above can afford the premiums anyway (though they are too high, due to the high costs). The lower-middle-class can get subsidies and just need to budget properly to pay the rest (many Americans are notoriously bad at budgeting, but they should pay their premiums if they are reasonable for their income level.)

    The big problem in the US right now is a combination of super-high costs and a doctor shortage.

    Converting to a socialized plan will worsen both.

    Fix costs first, perhaps address the doctor shortage as well (there are ways), and THEN talk about who pays for it.

     
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      Salty_Aus: People dying because they can't even afford simple medicines like Insulin.

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    The big problem in the US right now is a combination of super-high costs and a doctor shortage.

    My intuition is the bar for what we call a doctor might be lowered. Most general medicine is rote. Marry a little AI and the virtual (online) doctors visit and weíve made great strides in cost and efficiency and sacrificed little.

    But everyone has an association or a union so progress will be fought

    Itís not an issue I invest too many calories on.

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanlmar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    The big problem in the US right now is a combination of super-high costs and a doctor shortage.

    My intuition is the bar for what we call a doctor might be lowered. Most general medicine is rote. Marry a little AI and the virtual (online) doctors visit and weíve made great strides in cost and efficiency and sacrificed little.

    But everyone has an association or a union so progress will be fought

    Itís not an issue I invest too many calories on.
    The doctor shortage and anything associated with it is mostly a AMA/AAMC issue. They fucked up trying control supply and to begin with they had diametric interests to patients. To keep their premium salary they've limited the number of new doctors from schools and immigration. Those two sources keep the balance if you let them.

  15. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanlmar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    The big problem in the US right now is a combination of super-high costs and a doctor shortage.

    My intuition is the bar for what we call a doctor might be lowered. Most general medicine is rote. Marry a little AI and the virtual (online) doctors visit and weíve made great strides in cost and efficiency and sacrificed little.

    But everyone has an association or a union so progress will be fought

    Itís not an issue I invest too many calories on.
    Medicine is something that is well suited to computers and AI... especially diagnosis.
    Though I suspect you will need a professional to input high quality data, and assessing symptoms.
    I think computer diagnosis will be far superior then human doctors in the not too distant future. They will be always up to date with the latest developments and they don't forget.

  16. #576
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salty_Aus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanlmar View Post


    My intuition is the bar for what we call a doctor might be lowered. Most general medicine is rote. Marry a little AI and the virtual (online) doctors visit and weíve made great strides in cost and efficiency and sacrificed little.

    But everyone has an association or a union so progress will be fought

    Itís not an issue I invest too many calories on.
    Medicine is something that is well suited to computers and AI... especially diagnosis.
    Though I suspect you will need a professional to input high quality data, and assessing symptoms.
    I think computer diagnosis will be far superior then human doctors in the not too distant future. They will be always up to date with the latest developments and they don't forget.
    Maybe.

    At the moment, the current doctor/patient model is flawed (everywhere), in that it's too old school, and not in a good way.

    You go to the doctor, you tell them your symptoms, and he quickly tries to go through his brain to guess at what you have. Sometimes he's right (if it's obvious or common within his specialty), and many times he will be wrong. Many times it will be impossible diagnose but a guess will be made because patients hate hearing "I don't know", and potentially harmful tests are ordered and/or prescriptions written.

    I always felt the best model was to tell the doctor what's wrong, he leaves the room, he looks up the symptoms on the internet or some electronic medial database, and then uses his training and expertise to make a decision as to what you most likely have. Kind of like the same way we look up our own symptoms on google, but having someone with expertise to interpret what it spits out.

    Unfortunately I have to "sanity check" every diagnosis given to me, and decide what I actually want to do. Fortunately I have a brother who is a doctor, and he can give me advice (though he's far away and can't examine me in person), but most people don't have that.

  17. #577
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Politics aside, here are my impressions of the 10 candidates in the last debate, from a personal standpoint:

    Biden - Doesn't mean badly, but kind of an out-of-touch, somewhat strange old guy who can't even come close to fitting in with modern times. Not all that bright, but has some street smarts.

    Warren - Very smart, mostly honest with her beliefs and intentions, but also has a sneaky side to where she will bend her morals in order to get what she wants.

    Bernie - Very passionate and genuine in his beliefs, and has an unwavering commitment to what he feels is right. However, he's also grouchy, loud, uncompromising, and hard for people to relate to on a personal level.

    Harris - Cold, calculating bitch who sometimes struggles to put on a phony warm, likable persona. Not above lying or manipulating to achieve her goals. In some ways similar to Hillary Clinton, though not as shady.

    Beto - Freak and a weird dude, who seems to reinvent himself every five seconds. Has a dark side which many don't realize exists.

    Kloubachar - Mostly reasonable and straightforward midwesterner, and probably a decent person. Thinks some of her opponents are insane, but is afraid to say it.

    Yang - Fun tech/entrepreneur type whom I'd probably enjoy having as a boss, provided he didn't work me too hard. Probably too into crypto for his own good.

    Castro - Arrogant asshole who suffers from short man syndrome.

    Booker - Also kind of an arrogant asshole, but not quite as off-putting as Castro. Thinks very, very highly of himself.

    Buttigieg - Very passive-aggressive, and not nearly as nice as he tries to seem. Never wants to tell you what he really believes or where he stands, unless he thinks it sounds good.

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Kloubachar - Mostly reasonable and straightforward midwesterner, and probably a decent person. Thinks some of her opponents are insane, but is afraid to say it.
    Has everybody forgotten all the stories about her huge temper problem and violent tendencies with her staff? And she didn't even deny the allegations! I swear there was a whole cycle about this shortly after she announced she was running, and now nobody is talking about it. Probably because her poll numbers make her irrelevant.

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