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Thread: PokerFraudAlert Report: Lock Poker -- AVOID

  1. #61
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Now Lock is "segregating" their high stakes games from the rest of the network!

    This is a very bad sign!

    Basically, all games above 1/2 NL are NOT available to be played through other skins, and can only be played against other Lock players!

    Here is the discussion of it on 2+2:

    http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...ation-1297091/

    Here is the analysis from one of our users, via PM:

    Obviously the question here is why would they do this. From what I understand they are segregating every limit over 1/2 from other skins. Imjustshane claims its to better the poker ecology and that they're looking out for their own players(LOL).
    IMO these are potential reasons for doing this:

    -They are expecting/experiencing huge chip dumps to other skins like intertops b/c of cashout times.

    -They don't have the $ to transfer to other skins if their player loses.

    -Lock could already be way behind on paying the other skins.

    Cashouts from Lock at the moment are:

    -2 months for ROW players
    -3-4 months for a check
    -2 months for Western Union
    I agree with this analysis.

    This is yet another strong sign that Lock is almost broke.

    They have probably realized that people can either dump to other skins such as Intertops (and thus Lock would have to pay Intertops that money), along with the fact that they can't afford to pay the skins right now even if dumping isn't occurring, and the losses are legitimate!

    Here is 2+2 rep's imjustshane's poor explanation of the situation:

    We offer all the same stakes as everyone on the network but we have partitioned some of our higher stakes based on our current size and our soft poker ecology to better care for our players.

    A healthy poker ecology is a combination of grinder type players who always ensure there is action as well as casual type players who always bring fresh deposits in.


    Basically he's trying to say that Lock doesn't want its "soft" players to chunk off money to players on other skins, and wants to leave these fish for Lock's own pros to beat.

    Bullshit.

    Very soon it will become clear that Lock is the next UB/Full Tilt.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Now Lock is "segregating" their high stakes games from the rest of the network!

    This is a very bad sign!
    This isn't the first time this has happened at a poker room.

    Years ago Party Poker did something similar in 2005. It was also reported Ongame did something similar recently. Plus iPoker splitting its players also recently creating iPoker 2.

    So I don't see how doing this is a sign of anything strange other than trying to do something similar to the poker sites stated.

    The cashier is a problem, and is totally not acceptable. This is currently Lock's no. 1 priority. But what people don't realise is Lock is in a position no other online poker room other than possible bodog (who have been processing to the US for years) are in. And that is the volume of transactions they have to process.

    I would like to state I work for Lock. However, processing isn't my stong point (I have no dealing with the processing side in anyway.) and I have no new answers that can't be found online already. I just wanted to state ring fencing players isn't anything new, and isn't a sign of anything other than a poker room trying to protect there players and ecosystem.

  3. #63
    Serial Blogger BeerAndPoker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g9olt View Post
    The cashier is a problem, and is totally not acceptable. This is currently Lock's no. 1 priority. But what people don't realise is Lock is in a position no other online poker room other than possible bodog (who have been processing to the US for years) are in. And that is the volume of transactions they have to process.
    Forget processing transactions for Americans at the moment and answer the question why customers from the rest of the world outside the USA have outrageously long waiting times to get paid compared to other poker rooms of Lock's size or smaller?

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by BeerAndPoker View Post

    Forget processing transactions for Americans at the moment and answer the question why customers from the rest of the world outside the USA have outrageously long waiting times to get paid compared to other poker rooms of Lock's size or smaller?
    First thing is there is the only poker room that is close to our size and that is Bodog. And Bodog have been around for years and been dealing with US processing problems, so have had time to master it. Any other poker room isn't Lock's size, so don't have the same problem we have with the volume of money needing moved.

    About the non US money. The problem is most of the money that gets deposited on Lock is US money, and most of the money that is withdrawn is non-US money. This might not sound right but the reason most money coming off the site being non-US money is because 95% of our affiliates are non-US or have non-US bank accounts. This joined with the fact the US players are fish. (well on lock we have more US fish).

    So what happens is we need to take money in from US players accounts and move it to non-US players accounts. So they go through the exact same problems as if going the other way. I can't go into to much details. (mostly because I don't know that much) and because its a subject we can't talk to much about on a public forum.

    This is just a very basic example, but I hope you can understand why there is little difference between US money and non-US money. For example if we receive 1 million in neteller from non-US, we can instantly pay out 1 million in neteller. The problems arise when we receive most our money from say US credit cards, and most of our cash outs are non-US neteller. This is just an example by the way. I have no idea what the real numbers are. I'm just trying to give a small example of some of the difficulties that processing US and non-US can be.

    As I said though, I know very little about the processing of funds. I deal with a totally different part of Lock. But I hope it helped.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by g9olt View Post

    This isn't the first time this has happened at a poker room.

    Years ago Party Poker did something similar in 2005. It was also reported Ongame did something similar recently. Plus iPoker splitting its players also recently creating iPoker 2.
    Ongame has since ended the segregation.

    Also, both Ongame and iPoker had segregated low stakes only, not high stakes.

    You are correct that Party Poker did something similar, but it was NOT to protect their ecosystem, it was to KILL the games and the KILL the Empire skin so they could buy them out.

    http://pokerfuse.com/news/poker-room...olution-14-02/

    Given the historical record of Lock's non-response in the face of scandal, it speaks volumes that a Rep showed up here only NOW to defend Lock.

    There's not a single piece of evidence that Lock can point to that supports their financial viability. There's a literal avalanche of evidence to the contrary.

    Druff is right on the money.

  6. #66
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g9olt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BeerAndPoker View Post

    Forget processing transactions for Americans at the moment and answer the question why customers from the rest of the world outside the USA have outrageously long waiting times to get paid compared to other poker rooms of Lock's size or smaller?
    First thing is there is the only poker room that is close to our size and that is Bodog. And Bodog have been around for years and been dealing with US processing problems, so have had time to master it. Any other poker room isn't Lock's size, so don't have the same problem we have with the volume of money needing moved.

    About the non US money. The problem is most of the money that gets deposited on Lock is US money, and most of the money that is withdrawn is non-US money. This might not sound right but the reason most money coming off the site being non-US money is because 95% of our affiliates are non-US or have non-US bank accounts. This joined with the fact the US players are fish. (well on lock we have more US fish).

    So what happens is we need to take money in from US players accounts and move it to non-US players accounts. So they go through the exact same problems as if going the other way. I can't go into to much details. (mostly because I don't know that much) and because its a subject we can't talk to much about on a public forum.

    This is just a very basic example, but I hope you can understand why there is little difference between US money and non-US money. For example if we receive 1 million in neteller from non-US, we can instantly pay out 1 million in neteller. The problems arise when we receive most our money from say US credit cards, and most of our cash outs are non-US neteller. This is just an example by the way. I have no idea what the real numbers are. I'm just trying to give a small example of some of the difficulties that processing US and non-US can be.

    As I said though, I know very little about the processing of funds. I deal with a totally different part of Lock. But I hope it helped.
    First off, I'm glad that you identified yourself as an employee of Lock. Thank you for your honesty in that matter.

    However, I need to tell you that your boss Jennifer isn't being honest with you.

    You are correct in that it is easier and faster to cash out someone through Neteller if they have deposited with them before. This is because Neteller essentially does a "refund" of the previous deposit, charges the site lesser fees, and processes it instantly. However, this does NOT explain why it is taking 2-3 months for non-US players to cash out. This is a staggeringly long timeframe, and very indicative that something is wrong.

    The main delay for US cashouts involves a "cashout backlog". Simply put, cashing out players from online poker sites is highly illegal. The existing US payment processors can't process very many cashouts at a time, or otherwise they will draw very unwanted attention from banks and the DOJ. Therefore, everyone who wants a cashout needs to get "in line", and the processors get to each cashout in the order received. As the backlog of cashouts increases, the waiting time increases, unless the site can find additional processors to lessen the load.

    As you mentioned, sites like Bodog/Bovada are highly experienced with US cashouts and have relationships with a lot of processors. Operations such as Lock don't have such relationships, and therefore these 4-month waiting times occur.

    I understand all of that, and it makes sense.

    HOWEVER, none of this applies to non-US cashouts! The vast majority of the waiting time for US cashouts is due to the fact that they are illegal to process! Take away that illegality, and the cashouts can be processed in days, not weeks or months. Since online poker financial transactions are NOT illegal in most other countries, Lock should be completing these cashouts within days, if not instantly. The fact that they are taking months is a VERY bad sign.

    Furthermore, let's pretend for a moment that you run Lock Poker, and indeed are nearly flat broke (and the player money is mostly gone, as well). What do you do?

    - Stall cashouts for EVERYONE, and blame it on the processor. This keeps most of your precious cash-on-hand still in your bank account -- at least for the time being.

    - Cut out the high limit players from other skins. This erases the necessity to immediately pay skins when their players beat Lock players.

    - Dodge all quesitons about your financial viability.

    You can continue operating with very little money going out, and hope that the money coming in will rescue you.

    They are behaving EXACTLY like a site that is broke.

    Also, Lock shares some amazing similarities with post-cheating-scandal-UB:

    - Horrendous customer service

    - Excellent marketing department

    - Decent traffic, including longtime online grinders, despite a recent history of numerous scandals

    - Highly successful "lead" site pro (Hellmuth for UB, Mizrachi for Lock), who is extremely self-absorbed and unlikely to care about shady bullshit occurring on the site

    - Major cashout issues for all players (regardless of location) with no honest answers as to why it's taking so long


    Anyway, Lock has to be in serious financial difficulty. All of the signs point to it.

  7. #67
    First post here, just wanted to sincerely thank Dan Druff for the updates on Merge and Lock the last few months. You have the best info I've seen out there, and it's much appreciated.

    The problems with the current US networks is part of the reason I've temporary moved abroad recently. I still play on Lock (games are soft enough to justify it), and regret to say I have 15k on the site (10k of that in processing) which would sting if Lock went under and I lost it all. I'm guessing you recommend Lock players to get it all of immediately and never have anything to do with the site ever again?

    I'm also wondering how the endgame of Lock would play out, and perhaps you may have no idea, but feel free to speculate. Does Lock plan on doing a hit and run, and the owners run away with all the money? Or do they just plan on being incompetent, keep players' deposits unsegregated, pay out withdrawals on their own schedule, etc., but at the end of the day they have every intention of paying players eventually?

    Because as bad as it sounds, if it's the latter and it takes 2 months to get money off of Lock, so be it. I'll keep playing on the network as long as I can make money. I'd be stupid not to.

    So if Lock still has every intention of paying players back in full, and since you'd think running an online poker site would be a goldmine for the owners (maybe I'm wrong on that), then as far as I see the only major risks that remain are a DOJ seizure or new legislation legalizing competition in the USA. Or the site somehow goes broke. Seriously, how could an online poker site like Lock go broke?

  8. #68
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by norfair18 View Post
    First post here, just wanted to sincerely thank Dan Druff for the updates on Merge and Lock the last few months. You have the best info I've seen out there, and it's much appreciated.

    The problems with the current US networks is part of the reason I've temporary moved abroad recently. I still play on Lock (games are soft enough to justify it), and regret to say I have 15k on the site (10k of that in processing) which would sting if Lock went under and I lost it all. I'm guessing you recommend Lock players to get it all of immediately and never have anything to do with the site ever again?

    I'm also wondering how the endgame of Lock would play out, and perhaps you may have no idea, but feel free to speculate. Does Lock plan on doing a hit and run, and the owners run away with all the money? Or do they just plan on being incompetent, keep players' deposits unsegregated, pay out withdrawals on their own schedule, etc., but at the end of the day they have every intention of paying players eventually?

    Because as bad as it sounds, if it's the latter and it takes 2 months to get money off of Lock, so be it. I'll keep playing on the network as long as I can make money. I'd be stupid not to.

    So if Lock still has every intention of paying players back in full, and since you'd think running an online poker site would be a goldmine for the owners (maybe I'm wrong on that), then as far as I see the only major risks that remain are a DOJ seizure or new legislation legalizing competition in the USA. Or the site somehow goes broke. Seriously, how could an online poker site like Lock go broke?
    There are many ways a site can go broke:

    - Getting ripped off (or gouged) by payment processors

    - Over-marketing

    - Running too many guarantee tournaments with an overlay

    - Treating player deposit money as being available as a loan to the business or its owners

    - Paying out too many "profits" to owners

    Full Tilt actually had a combination of all of the above.

    But any and all of these can break a poker site.

    If I had to guess, I would say that Lock blew its money on marketing. They have spent a lot in that department. CEO Jennifer Larson is good at marketing, but as far as I know, does not have any prior experience as a CEO or anything similar.

    Given Lock's shadiness, it would not surprise me in the least that they spent player deposits.

    While I do believe that Lock really wants to survive and pay everyone, keep in mind that so did Full Tilt, and in fact, so did UB. (UB, of course, DIDN'T want to pay everyone properly for the 2003-2008 cheating, though!)

    Lock's intentions don't mean much at this point, unless they have a realistic business plan to get themselves out of their hole and back in shape to pay everyone. Their actions at this point are only going to hurt the site's credibility, deaden the network, and undermine people's confidence in them.

    I would suggest getting your money off of there ASAP if possible.

    What do I think their endgame is? They probably want to hold off paying people (and skins) as long as possible until they accumulate enough new deposits to start operating more normally again. This may never occur, and if people keep trying to "make a run on the bank" by withdrawing (as they should), the problem will keep getting worse.

    I guess it's possible that Lock might get some infusion of cash from some outside investor, but for the moment, I would get as much money off of there as possible, even though it might take months and maybe you'll never really receive it.

    Remember that Full Tilt was essentially freerolling the non-US players after Black Friday, hoping to accumulate enough deposits to then use to pay the US players. They were trying to rob Peter (non-US) to pay Paul (US).

    I think Lock could be doing some form of that here.

  9. #69
    Druff, do you think Lock is beneath dipping into customer accounts to pay their network skins on Revolution? I've been hearing a lot of rumors that they could be doing just that and is probably just another reason why they won't address the segregation of player funds with company funds...

    Also, wrote a small article and linked to another one on Flushdraw.com on this whole situation as well if you're interested:

    http://www.4flush.com/online-poker-n...-fencing/12306

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by The PINO View Post
    I've been hearing a lot of rumors that they could be doing just that and is probably just another reason why they won't address the segregation of player funds with company funds...
    Hi

    This has been said a few times, in a few places. But Yes, Lock segregate player funds, this has been address by Shane on 2+2. So not sure why you think Lock won't address this, as we have always said player funds are segregated.

  11. #71
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g9olt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The PINO View Post
    I've been hearing a lot of rumors that they could be doing just that and is probably just another reason why they won't address the segregation of player funds with company funds...
    Hi

    This has been said a few times, in a few places. But Yes, Lock segregate player funds, this has been address by Shane on 2+2. So not sure why you think Lock won't address this, as we have always said player funds are segregated.
    I would sooner believe Baghdad Bob than I would Shane from Lock Poker. The guy is the ultimate company stooge who will say anything Jennifer tells him.



    I highly doubt that Lock's funds are segregated. I will not believe it until they show sufficient evidence, verified by a trusted third party. No way they will ever do this.

    Lock has shown a complete lack of ethics when it comes to other matters, so it would not surprise me at all to find out that they spent player funds on business expenses.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by g9olt View Post
    This has been said a few times, in a few places. But Yes, Lock segregate player funds, this has been address by Shane on 2+2. So not sure why you think Lock won't address this, as we have always said player funds are segregated.
    Link me to these multiple sources please.

    Sorry, but I just don't trust anything from your company as of late - your Lock "pros" poached several of my high-raking players by offering under the table deals, your cashout times are in upwards of 10 weeks (even to international players, wtf) and your CEO Jennifer Larson has continually shunned the community when its come to giving REAL answers about the state of your company.

    Forgive me if I'm not so optimistic about Lock or the company shills they send in to give us "answers."

  13. #73
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    http://lockpoker.eu/promos/grind-for-glory/



    So you can win $90,488 "directly into your Lock account" -- which you most likely can't cash out.

    Great promo!

  14. #74
    Serial Blogger BeerAndPoker's Avatar
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    Lock still acquiring people:

    http://gambling911.com/poker/jim-erw...ly-022813.html

    The LockPRO team is one of the rare success stories in recent poker years and the opportunity to come and work with this team felt like a calling just too tempting to resist," says Erwood. "The company has made significant strides in the industry & yet we recognize there are many more obstacles to traverse so it is vitally important the LockPRO team are supported in their hard work and efforts to spearhead the Lock Poker movement. People can expect to see exciting developments within the team including a new tier of semi-pros and a dedicated team of LockLIVE pros representing the brand on the live circuit. The challenge is to maximize our current resources, strengthen & ensure that the Lock team continues to evolve, interact and make significant and meaningful impact with the wider poker community."
    So can Jim Erwood save Lock Poker? LOL

  15. #75
    Serial Blogger BeerAndPoker's Avatar
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    Players now claiming missing buyins over on Lock:

    http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...y-ins-1308330/

  16. #76
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    Lol, this is pretty bad. AdamEvePoker is claiming that they're not getting paid by lock (and haven't settled for their October debts) so now AndE isn't going to keep eating losses because Lock is stiffing them.
    Hello All,

    I would like to start with clarifying that I am not the owner, as stated by NextPlz - I am a Poker Affiliates manager at AdamevePoker.

    Good that someone started this thread, as cashouts started to take longer time than usual. Since we use our own cashier usually cashouts used to take 1-3 working days regardless of the withdrawal amount. Company owners always used their own money to cover all cashouts, but now when networks's debt in front of Adameve reached huge amounts, finance group of AdamevePoker made a decision of processing all withdrawals only subject to receiving actual settlements transfers from the network. For your reference - even our settlement for October 2012 (!) is still not fully covered and its already March...

    Steps which will be done by us to solve this issue ASAP:
    1. In the nearest days our CEO is going to meet Cake network reps. to discuss the situation and find possible resolution options;
    2. "Fair Play" functionality which Cake promised to implement this week will allow us to solve the situation with our winning players and with huge amounts of withdrawals we have because of that.

    For any inquiries related to delayed withdrawals, please use our Payments management department email: payments@adamevepoker.com

    In front of all our players and affiliates we sincerely apologize for any inconvenience caused by this network issue which is beyond our control.
    We're doing our best to resolve it with the network ASAP.
    Quote Originally Posted by verminaard View Post
    Just non-stop unrelenting LGBT propaganda being shoved down our throats.

  17. #77
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    Also, I think I realized why Lock players are such big losers. I used to think the players on that network were just really bad. But I think a big pat of the problem is that Lock is so bad with payments that people with money on Lock will dump it to somebody on another skin (or themsleves on another skin) that has a better history of paying out (Intertops and AdamEve). Thus pushing Lock even further in to debt.

    People are starting to sell Lock money for 50 cents on the dollar.
    Quote Originally Posted by verminaard View Post
    Just non-stop unrelenting LGBT propaganda being shoved down our throats.

  18. #78
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    ya they are in trouble

    Shane still saying cashouts will improve soon


  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by g9olt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BeerAndPoker View Post

    Forget processing transactions for Americans at the moment and answer the question why customers from the rest of the world outside the USA have outrageously long waiting times to get paid compared to other poker rooms of Lock's size or smaller?
    First thing is there is the only poker room that is close to our size and that is Bodog. And Bodog have been around for years and been dealing with US processing problems, so have had time to master it. Any other poker room isn't Lock's size, so don't have the same problem we have with the volume of money needing moved.

    About the non US money. The problem is most of the money that gets deposited on Lock is US money, and most of the money that is withdrawn is non-US money. This might not sound right but the reason most money coming off the site being non-US money is because 95% of our affiliates are non-US or have non-US bank accounts. This joined with the fact the US players are fish. (well on lock we have more US fish).

    So what happens is we need to take money in from US players accounts and move it to non-US players accounts. So they go through the exact same problems as if going the other way. I can't go into to much details. (mostly because I don't know that much) and because its a subject we can't talk to much about on a public forum.

    This is just a very basic example, but I hope you can understand why there is little difference between US money and non-US money. For example if we receive 1 million in neteller from non-US, we can instantly pay out 1 million in neteller. The problems arise when we receive most our money from say US credit cards, and most of our cash outs are non-US neteller. This is just an example by the way. I have no idea what the real numbers are. I'm just trying to give a small example of some of the difficulties that processing US and non-US can be.

    As I said though, I know very little about the processing of funds. I deal with a totally different part of Lock. But I hope it helped.
    This isn't true and is a good example of manipulation from your company.

    First off, Revolution, the entire network, made up of many different companies with different cashiers, is the only US facing network the size of Bodog. But that isn't relevant. What is relevant is the size of Lock Poker.

    Given you've been losing players while skins like Intertops, Comeon, AdamEve and Muchos have been gaining players (due to horrible cashout times on Lock), not to mention the base of Cake/Juicy Stakes players, it's next to impossible to assume you have even 60% of the network's population.

    Being generious and giving you 60% of the network's population, and you're still smaller than the Merge Network (which serves most of their playerbase on two network ran cashiers). Merge doesn't have an issue with paying their players, and by all signs they are larger than Lock Poker.

    Looking at it more realistically, your playerbase could be closer to the Winning Network, which happens to have the fastest cashouts out of all US facing rooms (perhaps tied with Intertops, which also serves US players on your network).

    When multiple skins on your own network are saying Lock is behind on network payments by 4+ months and carries a large debt and your cashout excuses don't add up... I mean you guys couldn't even get your story straight for Girah and just lied your way out of it, mortgaging the future to get rid of the present story. If you take such shortcuts and fail to own up a relatively small issue, why should anybody believe what appears to be far fetched stories about cashout times, debts and other major skin actions?

    There are posts from Shane around 6 months old that consistently say "Cashout times are about to improve." The last one was "March 1st, new methods will be available." Then it changed to "A very small testing group" after people questioned him on it in March.

    The sad thing is, it's very easy to acquire players when you spend money you don't have. For example, if you have 2 mil in player deposits and make 500k a year in profits, but decide to spend a million that year in advertising and 500k in pro sponsorships, then you start acquiring players very fast. Flashy marketing, promos that make no sense (why would you pay your highest rakers over 100% rb for months? no US site was paying even 50% to those players, you could've made it 75% and kept people grinding just as much as maybe turned a profit or at least not lost money)... it's easy to acquire, but once you stop acquiring and people start cashing out, it gets tough.

  20. #80
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
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    Lock Poker claims the AdamEvePoker skin as one of its victims.

    Lock (Revolution) has not paid them in about 5-6 months, and they are now closing their poker room.

    Russian article: http://www.homeofpoker.ru/poker-news...r-zakryvaetsja

    Translation:

    Dear players AdamevePoker,

    In light of recent events and the difficulties faced by our poker room, we have to suspend deposits for safety of funds of our players. On the first of April AdamevePoker poker client does not function, resuming only upon payment of the full amount of the balance. The decision was taken AdamevePoker superiors to prevent the movement of funds among the players and the sooner they return.

    It is important to note that we do not stop their activities. During the absence of the poker client will still run our online casino and other products. Players who do not submit an application for withdrawal before closing the poker client will be able to make it through the casino site.

    We sincerely regret the circumstances and hope for your understanding.

    Sincerely,
    Staff AdamevePoker.com

    Unfortunately, we have to remove from the site all weekly freerolls room AdamEve, and free vouchers for $ 50 from our store. In addition, we hope that all the players money issues will be resolved in the shortest time.
    Supposedly AdamEve will pay out their members anyway, even though Lock screwed them.

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