Results 1 to 6 of 6

Thread: Another CET freeroll bit of shadiness

  1. #1
    Bronze alpha1243's Avatar
    Reputation
    88
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    174
    Blog Entries
    18
    Load Metric
    65636299

    Another CET freeroll bit of shadiness

    After listening to Bart Hanson's recap of his free roll tournament at Caesars on the radio show, I decided to post my own recap of a blackjack tournament I was invited to play at a Caesars property a couple years ago. This wasn't as bad as Bart's experience, but after listening to the radio show it got me thinking that maybe I could have spoken up. It's a long post that contains all of the blackjack details for those interested. I know this is a poker forum, but I'm no blackjack player. These play just like a poker tournament where bet sizing and trump all else.

    The Story

    I was invited to play in a blackjack tournament at a Caesars property back in 2014. This was known as Grand Casino in Biloxi, MS, but has since been rebranded as Harrah's Gulf Coast. I'm not a blackjack player. In fact, the last time I seriously played any blackjack was at the Playboy Casino in AC. You can Google it to see when it closed. Anyway, here's the recap:

    During the weekend of 22-23 February 2014, the Grand Casino in Biloxi held their "$50,000 Double Take Blackjack Tournament". Entry fee was $30 for one tournament or $50 for both. I received complimentary entries for both days.

    Name:  bj1.jpg
Views: 621
Size:  13.3 KB

    The blackjack tournament consisted of 5 preliminary rounds, 1 semi-final round, 1 "second chance" round, and 1 final round. A pit area on the casino floor was set up with 6 blackjack tables. Each table seated 5 players. Players started each round with 2,500 in chips, the minimum bet was 100, the maximum bet was 5,000, and each round lasted 15 hands. Both days of the tournament were sold out, so the preliminary rounds contained 150 players and the second chance rounds contained 30 players.

    In the preliminary round the top 30 players with the highest chip count after 15 hands advanced into the semi-final round, so players were competing against not just the other players at their table but all 149 other players in the 5 preliminary rounds.

    In the semi-final round the 6 players who won their individual table advanced into the final round. This was how tournament blackjack is suppose to be played in that you only compete against players at your table. This allows you to keep tabs on their chip stacks and play against the same dealer, so bet-sizing and position are key elements.

    After the 6 semi-finalists were determined the casino held a "second chance" qualifying round where players could pay an additional entry fee and compete against each other where the top 4 players advanced directly to the finals.

    The final round consisted of 2 tables of 5 players. As with the preliminary round, these 10 players were competing against the field and not just the other players at their table. The player with the most chips would win 1st place, second in chips took home 2nd place, etc. Alternately, the first player to bust out came in 10th place and so on.

    Name:  bj2.jpg
Views: 523
Size:  13.6 KB

    The prize pool for each of the $25,000 tournaments consisted of $15,000 in cash and 10,000 in promotional chips for a total prize pool of $50,000. If the same player won both the Saturday and Sunday tournament they also won a 2014 Camaro convertible which had a sticker price of just over $47,000.

    Name:  bj3.jpg
Views: 673
Size:  149.5 KB

    I registered Friday evening and received my table and seat assignments for the Saturday and Sunday tournaments. The first of the 5 preliminary rounds started at 11am with the next round starting the following hour. I would be playing at noon both days.

    Prior to coming to Biloxi I searched the Internet for information on playing in blackjack tournaments and found a useful strategy guide at blackjackinfo.com written by Ken Smith. I printed out the 11-page guide and looked it over before leaving. I studied it Friday night and again Saturday morning before play began.

    Saturday

    On Saturday I arrived at the tournament area before 11am to see how things worked. I could tell that there were several small groups of blackjack tournament regulars milling about and discussing the tournament structure. They seemed to agree that if you could finish the preliminary round with 5,000 chips, basically doubling your starting stack, that it would be enough to get you into the top 30 and advance into the semi-finals. Some tables I watched saw players betting big and either running up big stacks or busting out well before the 15th hand was dealt. On average only 2-3 players would survive all 15 hands with chips, while the others busted out early. It really all depended on how the dealer ran. A hot dealer would bust most of the table and leave the remaining players with few chips while a dealer who busted most of their hands found the players sitting with 10,000 to 20,000 in chips.

    Preliminary Round
    When play began at my table I bet low, only 100 or 200 chips, until I felt that the count was in my favor. I was doing well and my starting stack of 2,500 grew slowly. The turning point in that round was when I stepped out and bet 800. I was dealt 6-6 against a dealer 5. I split sixes and received another 6. I split that, stood on two of the hands and doubled down on the third. The dealer busted and I won 3,200 on that hand which boosted my stack above 6,500. I finished out the round by min-betting each hand and after 15 hands finished with 6,500. After the 1pm, 2pm, and 3pm preliminary rounds were complete the top 30 players were announced with the 30th place player having 4,200 chips. My 6,500 chips earned me 13th place, well within the top 30, and a seat in the 4pm semi-final round.

    Semi-Final Round
    The semi-finals were where you had to beat the players at just your table, so tournament strategy was key. Perhaps only one other player at my table was aware of this. By the 15th hand two players had busted out and we were 3-handed. I had position, meaning that I bet last and played my hand last. Player 1 had 600 chips, Player 2 had 2,000 chips, and I had 2,650 chips. Both players bet their whole stack. In blackjack tournament terms, which I just learned in the past 24 hours, I can have both the "high" and "low" with a bet of 2,000. The "high" means if all players win I take the lead. The "low" means that if all players bust I have the lead. Since we're all playing against the same dealer players at the table usually have the same result. I could still lose, but only if I lost and one of the other two players won the hand. This is a great position to be in, and I had to play my stack accordingly to end up in this position on hand 15. I don't recall what Player 1 had, but he had to hit and busted. Player 2 was dealt 10-8 and I was dealt 5-4. The dealer showed a 6. I'm in great shape. Player 2 stands. I hit and get an 8 for a total of 17. Not great. I can only lose if the dealer makes 18. She flips up a 9 for a total of 15 then busts. I advance into the finals and am guaranteed a spot in the money.

    The 5pm second chance round is sold out. All 30 players battle it out for the final 4 spots in the finals.

    Final Round
    At 6pm the 10 of us take our seats. Again, I play conservatively and last until hand 15. As with my previous table, only 3 of us remain. There are also 3 players left on the other table. Play is halted until both tables are ready to play hand 15. As with my semi-final round I have both position and the chip lead on the final hand. The short stack bets all 1,100 of his chips. Player 2 has 1,800 and decides to bet 1,700 -- holding back 100 incase everyone busts. I have 3,250, so he can still catch me, but I'll have the high and low. I bet 1,825, leaving me with 1,325 behind. (In retrospect I could have gotten the high by only betting 375, leaving me with 2,875 chips behind incase I busted and a player from the other table had more than 1,325 chips left.) The dealer shows an ace, which is a beautiful cards for me. I have the low and want the table to bust. I forget what the short stack did, but he stood pat. Player 2 uses his remaining 100 chip to take insurance. I don't take insurance. The dealer looks and doesn't have blackjack. Player 2 has K-8 and stands. I have 6-2 and hit. The dealer gives me a 2 for a total of 10. I hit again and get the Ace of spades, the prettiest card in the deck, for a total of 21. The dealer ends up busting. The other table finished play and the team of hosts, tournament directors, and staff are busy counting our chips and having us sign paperwork. I ask the special events host if I have enough for 1st place, she said she doesn't know, but her smile gave her away. The dealer busted 2 of the remaining 3 players at the other table and the surviving player at that table only had 1,100 in chips. I won the tournament and $15,000 cash (less the 3% Mississippi withheld for taxes). Since they're going to issue me a 1099 anyway, I opted for a check. Now on to Sunday's tournament where I'm the only played eligible to win the car.

    Sunday

    Preliminary Round
    Sunday starts out pretty much the same as Saturday. My preliminary round begins at noon. On hand 5 I bet 800 and again am dealt 6-6, this time against a dealer 3. I split and get another 6. Déjà vu. I split again and double on one of the 3 hands. The dealer busts and I have about 6,300 chips. Most people think today's line will be higher as more players will play aggressively, but I disagree and think that 5,000 is still a good line to make it into the top 30. With 10 hands to go I just min-bet and end the round with 6,900. The line is, in fact, 5,000 and 4 players tie with 5,000 for the 30th spot. They have a 4-player elimination round and my 6,900 puts me in 11th place and into the semi-finals.

    In the hour before my round and in the 3 hours waiting for the semi-finals to start, players and staff are congratulating me and wishing me luck. It's still a long way to go, but the staff is a little nervous.

    Semi-Final Round Shadiness Begins
    A new "rule" is announced: Players may not touch their chips until it is their turn to bet. This seems odd, but, being a poker player, I was the only player riffling my chips or handling them in any manner during both days of the tournament. I knew it gave me an edge as it made it more difficult for other player to casually glance over to get a chip count. (And if players did ask to see my chips, I knew they understood how to play tournament blackjack and I could adjust the way I played against them.) Caesars decided to remove that edge.

    At 4pm the semi-finals begin. I feel I have an edge here as we're only playing against the table and bet sizing and position aren't understood by everyone. I'm in Seat 3, but the guy in Seat 1 clearly understands tournament play as well. He's eyeing my chips; margining my bet when he's ahead. I'm trying to take the lead against him and vice versa. By the 15th hand 2 players have busted and the third has too few chips to contend for the table. It's just me and the guy in Seat 1. On hand 13 I took the lead and held it through hand 14. Now I sit with 7,250 and he's got 7,000. This time he's in position, so I can't take both the high and the low. Taking the low is always the best play, after all, busting players is what built the casinos in the first place. I bet 225. He knows what I'm doing and bets 500. If we both lose, I win. If we both win, he wins. I'm dealt A-A. Player 1 is dealt K-3. The dealer shows a Q. I have to act first. If I split the aces and lose, I still have the low by a single 25 chip. If I make blackjacks it'll force him to double down to take the high. I spilt, getting one card on each. I get a 3 for 14 and another ace. I can't do anything about the 14. My decision is whether to split the aces again and give up the low. I think a long time and stand pat with 12, again, something "the book" would not advise. Now, if we both win I'll have 7,700 and he'll have 7,500. I've captured the high and the low! Now it's his turn. He needs to either double down on his 13 if he thinks the dealer will bust, or hope he wins while I lose. He decides to hit and the dealer gives him a 9. He busts. The dealer shows a 7 for 17 and beats me. Since I had the low I end the round with 6,800 to his 6,500. I've got a seat in the finals and a 1-in-10 chance of winning the car and another $15,000.

    I watch the 5pm second chance round play out. It's got lots of very aggressive players straining to check out chip totals at the remaining tables. In the meantime I ask the special events person what options I have if I win the car. She says that I can either take the car or the casino will give me $30,000. With a $47,000 sticker price that's very low.

    Final Round Shadiness
    In poker tournaments, final table deals are common. The challenge now is to work out a deal that I can sell to the other 9 finalists which they will agree to. I figure their equity is $1,500 cash plus 1,000 in promo chips, less the taxes. Perhaps a more attractive offer is $1,600 plus 1,110 in promo chips for a value of $2,155. They'd have to come in 1st place to do better that is since 2nd place only has a cash value of $1,500. I discuss it with one of the players, but he claims he's not interested. I ask another player if he's interested. This guy understand his equity and knows I'm giving him more than his expected value. He says, and loudly so, that anyone would be a fool to turn it down. I tell him we've got to convince the other 8 guys. The staff hears us and interrupts to say that we cannot make a deal -- even away from the tables! That ends the discussion. Doing deals is not stated as prohibited in any of the rules, but I get it. They probably didn't actually think anyone would come close to winning the car. Remember, it's the first time they put together one of these tournaments and seem to be learning as they go.

    An physical alteration is made. On Saturday, as today, both final tables are positioned directly opposite one another on either side of the pit, so the dealers are back-to-back. The issue here is that players on one table cannot tell what's happening on the other table. A hot dealer may have destroyed everyone's stacks, allowing the players at the other table to adjust their strategy. But today, to further prevent me from seeing the stacks at the other table, the guy running the tournament (either a pit boss or shift manager) called over 5-6 staff members and had them stand between the two tables, forming a human wall. This was put in place to remove another of my edges. Did it hurt everyone? Not really. They're too short to see the chips on the other table. At 6'7" tall, I was just able to get a reliable count. With the wall of staff members in place this was no longer possible.

    Play begins with all eyes on me. I'm in Seat 4 and can tell that the guys in Seats 1 and 5 know how to play tournament blackjack. My problem is that they BOTH have position on me. I make a 1,200 bet on hand 7, double down, and win. I'm min-betting most of the time and the dealer continues to crush the table. One player is already gone from our table. By hand 13 I have 2,400 and the guy on my left has just over 4,500. I need to make a move now in order to have chips for the last hand. The other table still has all 5 players, meaning that their dealer hasn't busted anyone yet, so they must have bigger stacks than our table. Playing against another table where we can't see their chip stacks is odd. Seat 5 on our table complains that this is not how a final round should be played, and the floorperson agrees, saying that it's their first time running a blackjack tournament.

    I push all-in for 2,400 and every casino employee in the pit is watching. The dealer gives me 8-6 for 14 against a dealer 8. Not what I wanted to see. The book says I should hit, but the book's for cash games, not tournament play. I stand pat. The dealer flips up a 10 for 18 and I'm out in 9th place. I pick up the 500 in promo chips and wonder what I might have done differently as I make the walk back to the room.

    Name:  bj4.jpg
Views: 533
Size:  65.8 KB

    Not sure if speaking up would have done anything to change the outcome, but like I said, after listening to the radio show I felt that this was just another example of Caesars not treating their customers fairly -- or in this case, coming up with new rules and alterations on the fly aimed at reducing one player's chances of success. Thoughts?

     
    Comments
      
      Sanlmar: Lotta work & a good Trip Report
      
      Hockey Guy: Great trip report. Well worth the time to read.

  2. #2
    Plutonium Sanlmar's Avatar
    Reputation
    4291
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    21,087
    Load Metric
    65636299
    When a business or the economy collapse that is when the fraud and shadiness is likely to be revealed. Success and prosperity are the perfect camouflage.

    Madoff was exposed as the housing bubble burst and the economy tanked.

    The Full Tilt crowd was exposed when the gravy train stopped. Lock as well, I suppose.

    Caesars as they fuck around with their shady bankruptcy and struggle to keep the Ferris wheel turning.

    Not the least bit surprised - especially Caesars. Are you? Seriously?

  3. #3
    Diamond Hockey Guy's Avatar
    Reputation
    1233
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    7,629
    Load Metric
    65636299
    There were probably a few noobs/whales that complained about you riffing chips so they couldn't keep an accurate count of your chips & didn't realize they could just ask as well as complaining that you were keeping tabs on the chips on the other tables taking, what they considered, an inordinate amount of time.

    Of course, saying this, these complaints would be just ridiculous & the staff should have never did what they did concerning the rules & blocking everyone from keeping tabs on the other final table. I do understand them wanting to prevent that deal though since it's their promo & want it to play on the up & up & not have to answer questions about it's legitimacy from casual observers, which could wipe out any goodwill gained by running this promo.
    (•_•) ..
    ∫\ \___( •_•)
    _∫∫ _∫∫ɯ \ \

    Quote Originally Posted by Hockey Guy
    I'd say good luck in the freeroll but I'm pretty sure you'll go on a bender to self-sabotage yourself & miss it completely or use it as the excuse of why you didn't cash.

  4. #4
    Owner Dan Druff's Avatar
    Reputation
    10110
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    54,626
    Blog Entries
    2
    Load Metric
    65636299
    First off, thank you for posting this very long and detailed account of your tournament. I enjoyed reading it.

    And of course I'm always happy when a radio listener decides to jump feet first into posting on this sometimes obnoxious forum.

    I do have a few comments/questions for you, though:

    1) What are your complaints of shadiness? If I read it correctly, it's the addition of no-chip-touching, no deal making, and blocking view of the final 2 tables -- even though none are in the rules, right?

    2) Regarding the no-chip-touching, I don't see that as so bad. As someone else pointed out, there were likely complaints, and other players felt it was unfair to them. I can understand this on-the-fly rule change.

    3) Regarding the no deal making, I actually understand that, given the extra prize for winning both events. Deal-making circumvents that requirement to some extent, so again, I feel the casino has the right to disallow that, even if not explicitly mentioned in the printed rules.

    4) Regarding the final-table-blockade: Again, this was understandable in order to keep things fair.

    Unless I'm missing something, I don't think they did much wrong.

    Props to you for figuring out correct blackjack tournament strategy so quickly, though.

  5. #5
    Diamond Hockey Guy's Avatar
    Reputation
    1233
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    7,629
    Load Metric
    65636299
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    First off, thank you for posting this very long and detailed account of your tournament. I enjoyed reading it.

    And of course I'm always happy when a radio listener decides to jump feet first into posting on this sometimes obnoxious forum.

    I do have a few comments/questions for you, though:

    1) What are your complaints of shadiness? If I read it correctly, it's the addition of no-chip-touching, no deal making, and blocking view of the final 2 tables -- even though none are in the rules, right?

    2) Regarding the no-chip-touching, I don't see that as so bad. As someone else pointed out, there were likely complaints, and other players felt it was unfair to them. I can understand this on-the-fly rule change.

    3) Regarding the no deal making, I actually understand that, given the extra prize for winning both events. Deal-making circumvents that requirement to some extent, so again, I feel the casino has the right to disallow that, even if not explicitly mentioned in the printed rules.

    4) Regarding the final-table-blockade: Again, this was understandable in order to keep things fair.

    Unless I'm missing something, I don't think they did much wrong.

    Props to you for figuring out correct blackjack tournament strategy so quickly, though.
    I don't agree with #4 because they are actually competing against the players at that table & what happens there directly affects you.
    (•_•) ..
    ∫\ \___( •_•)
    _∫∫ _∫∫ɯ \ \

    Quote Originally Posted by Hockey Guy
    I'd say good luck in the freeroll but I'm pretty sure you'll go on a bender to self-sabotage yourself & miss it completely or use it as the excuse of why you didn't cash.

  6. #6
    Bronze alpha1243's Avatar
    Reputation
    88
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    174
    Blog Entries
    18
    Load Metric
    65636299
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    First off, thank you for posting this very long and detailed account of your tournament. I enjoyed reading it.

    And of course I'm always happy when a radio listener decides to jump feet first into posting on this sometimes obnoxious forum.

    I do have a few comments/questions for you, though:

    1) What are your complaints of shadiness? If I read it correctly, it's the addition of no-chip-touching, no deal making, and blocking view of the final 2 tables -- even though none are in the rules, right?

    2) Regarding the no-chip-touching, I don't see that as so bad. As someone else pointed out, there were likely complaints, and other players felt it was unfair to them. I can understand this on-the-fly rule change.

    3) Regarding the no deal making, I actually understand that, given the extra prize for winning both events. Deal-making circumvents that requirement to some extent, so again, I feel the casino has the right to disallow that, even if not explicitly mentioned in the printed rules.

    4) Regarding the final-table-blockade: Again, this was understandable in order to keep things fair.

    Unless I'm missing something, I don't think they did much wrong.

    Props to you for figuring out correct blackjack tournament strategy so quickly, though.

    Thanks Druff.

    1. Yes on all 3 points.

    2. I agree that there was probably a complaint since the dealer would give everyone each players' chip count only prior to hand #15. During the rest of play it was up to the players to eye the stacks of their opponents to get an estimate of their remaining chips. Most players were oblivious as to why keeping hand-by-hand tabs on your opponents' chip stack is a critical part of tournament strategy. I would rather have had a player ask me to lift my hands during play so I'd know which player was aware of tournament strategy. My only point here was that, from what I could observe, I was the only player riffling chips during play.

    3. I understand the no deal making to some extent. I've only reached the final table during 1 poker tournament -- and that tourney was a free roll put on by my local Florida poker room. Once everyone made the money deals were discussed several times, assisted by the floor staff, and finally agreed upon when we were 7 handed. Assuming the car promo wasn't a factor, I'd think that once your 180 blackjack tournament guests made the final round of 10 that agreeing on a deal would be fine -- even if some of those entrants did pay to enter the tourney (though from what I saw this was very small and most likely limited to only the 30 players in the second chance round.) With the extremely top-heavy payout structure a deal was very attractive. So, had no car been involved, or I wasn't a part of Sunday's finals, would you think that a deal would be squelched by the Caesars?

    4. Once I had asked someone how much cash I could get in lieu and they said $30k, which was no where near the $47k sticker, I figured that they weren't insuring the car. If someone won both tournaments that the casino was on the hook for the car. You've seen these $100k half-court shot drawings where the university picks some guy in the stands to make the shot, but the university isn't paying the $100k -- just buying the insurance from some other company. I don't think Caesars did that. This gave them more incentive to form the human blockade. Wouldn't you want to use my winning the car on billboards and in ads to promote future tournaments?

    As I said, all are minor, but after listening to Bart's story it just got me thinking. I enjoy the show and thought a post was a way to add my voice to the discussion. Thanks Druff.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Betcoin.ag - Scams, Scandals, and Shadiness Galore
    By TwitchySeal in forum Scams, Scandals, and Shadiness
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 04-07-2018, 10:24 PM
  2. Replies: 17
    Last Post: 12-09-2013, 07:37 PM
  3. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-27-2013, 01:44 AM
  4. Epic, Annie and pure shadiness....
    By JoyMillersMeatCurtains in forum Scams, Scandals, and Shadiness
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 03-21-2012, 01:19 PM
  5. Welcome to Scams, Scandals, and Shadiness! Please read this first!
    By Dan Druff in forum Scams, Scandals, and Shadiness
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-03-2012, 03:50 PM