Buying used car through dealer questions including negotiating

[BetCheckBet]

Buying used car from dealer in Canada 2012-2013 under 30k miles paying cash. Been looking at two dealerships (Mazda and Kia) who are both owned by biggest car guys in Canada.

I have crap knowledge about cars aside from what I read online. I'm not a pushover but I'm not a crazy jew or negotiator either.

Dealership 1 Mazda.

Arrive with gf no appointment. Meet salesman. Very nice not pushy at all but is clearly new to location. Seems disorganized but this also might be because we didn't book ahead. Test drive Mazda 3 and leave asking him to follow up with us by email with vehicles which match our interest. No follow up.

Dealership 2 Kia

Book appointment. Meet salesman. Makes reference to beating whatever Mazda gives us and how "we own them" (in actuality they are both owned by same business). Still the guy isn't too pushy. Test drive a few vehicles and decide Forte is best fit. Brings in sales manager (my impression is there are a few salesmanagers?). Salesmanager nice but very straightforward saying he wants to do whatever to have us sign off on vehicle right there. Look over car fax and looks good. Still under warrantee for a couple years. Discuss a few incentives. I make it clear basically no way we are leaving with a car that day though as need time to think. Both sales manager and salesman follow up a few days later to book an appointment for this weekend. Salesmanager saying he is ready to offer many more incentives to get us to buy.

In the meantime I research sales manager. Lots of positive things online about him. But turns out he is also salesmanger at Mazda. We are still looking to test drive another mazda 3 in meantime. Should I make an effort to get him at other dealership since I trust him or should I try and go for someone new and pit them against each other?

Also appreciate any general suggestions.

[Pooh]

Why aren't you financing. What rate would you get and what would be the monthly payment. Also what is price of car you looking at?

[BetCheckBet]

Why aren't you financing. What rate would you get and what would be the monthly payment. Also what is price of car you looking at?

We have cash. Is there a reason to finance? I've been told bank loans have better rates anyways and I can't see why I should take a loan if I don't need it.

looking to pay around 15k Canadian.

[Pooh]

Here's what I'd do personally. I'd get it financed. Used car loans are between 2-3.5% on bankrate.com. Open up a Scottrade account or an account at a brokerage that offers free billpay. Take your 15k and invest it in MLPL. This is currently paying a 20% dividend. It's a risky play but over the medium to long term it is a slam dunk and the dividends are in no way close to getting cut. It's just incredibly oversold because of the current commodity situation. You'll make around 3k per year in dividends and your car will be around 4k in payments. You would need 20k invested to make this work perfectly. In four years not only will you have a car that's paid for, you will have that income you were paying the car off still and the 15-20k may have turned into something much larger. Just my 2 cents.

[MumblesBadly]

Why aren't you financing. What rate would you get and what would be the monthly payment. Also what is price of car you looking at?

We have cash. Is there a reason to finance? I've been told bank loans have better rates anyways and I can't see why I should take a loan if I don't need it.

looking to pay around 15k Canadian.

If you let the salesman think you are going to finance it, they are more likely to accept giving you a lower negotiated price on the car thinking that they can pick up margin on the financing package they sell you. Then, once you have their firm offer price in hand, inform then that you changed your mind because someone who owes you money paid up sooner than expected. Or whatever. The dealer will be obliged by law to honor the price they negotiated thinking you would finance it.

[BetCheckBet]

We have cash. Is there a reason to finance? I've been told bank loans have better rates anyways and I can't see why I should take a loan if I don't need it.

looking to pay around 15k Canadian.

If you let the salesman think you are going to finance it, they are more likely to accept giving you a lower negotiated price on the car thinking that they can pick up margin on the financing package they sell you. Then, once you have their firm offer price in hand, inform then that you changed your mind because someone who owes you money paid up sooner than expected. Or whatever. The dealer will be obliged by law to honor the price they negotiated thinking you would finance it.

Thanks for not derailing like pooh.

Thought of this but hasn't been too successful. Problem is you initially deal with salesman who doesn't deal with prices. Once you are ready to talk price they bring in sales manager (and if you finance then you go to finance manager). At this point they ask how you are going to finance. Really no point trying to mislead them as if they run credit check on you it can hurt your score.

I'm pretty sure dealer is not obliged to honour anything unless its in writing, and in that case it will be payments not a total sum. Also even if I could screw dealership over this way I wouldn't want to do that since they will be honouring my warrantee and need to maintain decent relations.

[shortbuspoker]

Find the make that you are looking for. Test drive said vehicle. Tell the salesperson you need to think about it overnight. Look up the vehicle on the internet i.e. kbb and truecar to see what a fair price is. Go back to the dealership and offer what you believe to be a fair price. If they do not accept it walk away and start the process over again.

[BetCheckBet]

Find the make that you are looking for. Test drive said vehicle. Tell the salesperson you need to think about it overnight. Look up the vehicle on the internet i.e. kbb and truecar to see what a fair price is. Go back to the dealership and offer what you believe to be a fair price. If they do not accept it walk away and start the process over again.

I used Canadian black book (looks at aggregate selling prices). The price they are giving already seems to be pretty fair. They are offering certain incentives like free winter tires and rims. Guy is pretty much saying he is willing to throw in more we just need to ask. Any suggestions here? Gf would like defrosting rearview mirrors (no idea what that costs). Also have discussed discount on possible extended warrantee (current warrantee will expire in 2-3 years).

[shortbuspoker]

Find the make that you are looking for. Test drive said vehicle. Tell the salesperson you need to think about it overnight. Look up the vehicle on the internet i.e. kbb and truecar to see what a fair price is. Go back to the dealership and offer what you believe to be a fair price. If they do not accept it walk away and start the process over again.

I used Canadian black book (looks at aggregate selling prices). The price they are giving already seems to be pretty fair. They are offering certain incentives like free winter tires and rims. Guy is pretty much saying he is willing to throw in more we just need to ask. Any suggestions here? Gf would like defrosting rearview mirrors (no idea what that costs). Also have discussed discount on possible extended warrantee (current warrantee will expire in 2-3 years).

I'm not too big on extended warranties. Manly because I do most of my own maintenance work and mechanical upkeep. This is a good article about the math of why warranties overall aren't worth buying.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...anty/index.htm

[BetCheckBet]

I used Canadian black book (looks at aggregate selling prices). The price they are giving already seems to be pretty fair. They are offering certain incentives like free winter tires and rims. Guy is pretty much saying he is willing to throw in more we just need to ask. Any suggestions here? Gf would like defrosting rearview mirrors (no idea what that costs). Also have discussed discount on possible extended warrantee (current warrantee will expire in 2-3 years).

I'm not too big on extended warranties. Manly because I do most of my own maintenance work and mechanical upkeep. This is a good article about the math of why warranties overall aren't worth buying.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...anty/index.htm

I do like piece of mind but regardless think I may hold out on extended warrantee unless they give something really good. Since I can always get it later

[thesparten]

I'm not too big on extended warranties. Manly because I do most of my own maintenance work and mechanical upkeep. This is a good article about the math of why warranties overall aren't worth buying.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...anty/index.htm

I do like piece of mind but regardless think I may hold out on extended warrantee unless they give something really good. Since I can always get it later

My impression is your like me. Not going to change my ownl not going to rotate my own tires. If something breaks just fix it and be as honest as possoble..

Extended warranty a must...

[MumblesBadly]

If you let the salesman think you are going to finance it, they are more likely to accept giving you a lower negotiated price on the car thinking that they can pick up margin on the financing package they sell you. Then, once you have their firm offer price in hand, inform then that you changed your mind because someone who owes you money paid up sooner than expected. Or whatever. The dealer will be obliged by law to honor the price they negotiated thinking you would finance it.

Thanks for not derailing like pooh.

Thought of this but hasn't been too successful. Problem is you initially deal with salesman who doesn't deal with prices. Once you are ready to talk price they bring in sales manager (and if you finance then you go to finance manager). At this point they ask how you are going to finance. Really no point trying to mislead them as if they run credit check on you it can hurt your score.

I'm pretty sure dealer is not obliged to honour anything unless its in writing, and in that case it will be payments not a total sum. Also even if I could screw dealership over this way I wouldn't want to do that since they will be honouring my warrantee and need to maintain decent relations.

That last part about dealing with them for service sounds like they are the only dealer in the area for that brand. In that case, not being a dick to them so soon in the relationship probably is wise.

[Baron Von Strucker]

I used Canadian black book (looks at aggregate selling prices). The price they are giving already seems to be pretty fair. They are offering certain incentives like free winter tires and rims. Guy is pretty much saying he is willing to throw in more we just need to ask. Any suggestions here? Gf would like defrosting rearview mirrors (no idea what that costs). Also have discussed discount on possible extended warrantee (current warrantee will expire in 2-3 years).

I'm not too big on extended warranties. Manly because I do most of my own maintenance work and mechanical upkeep. This is a good article about the math of why warranties overall aren't worth buying.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...anty/index.htm

I would think extended warranty may be a good idea as with the new technology introduced into cars the cost to replace/repair damaged or faulty electronic components could be cost prohibitive. Also I personally think financing could be a good idea as you can find %0 financing for 60 months or more. I was also thinking you may find a good deal on a volkswagon since the stock has lost 40 points since the controversy they had. Last time I bought a car I used a broker and feel I got good value with little effort.
Good luck!

[herbertstemple]

If you are looking for a better price, try hitting a few more dealerships, not associated with these. That way you can have them bid down their cars to get your business. Doubt you can do that now because these two are owned by same outfit.

Also, do not tell them how much you are willing to spend or make any offer. Just like in a poker hand, let out as little information as possible.

[Dan Druff]

I'm going to clear out the shit from this thread after I make this post (by moving those posts to their own thread). Please, no trolling in threads like these.

Anyway, I am not sure if the used car buying experience in Canada is the same as it is in the US.

However, you should keep in mind the following:

1) You are unlikely to get a great deal via the dealership. They have a LOT more overhead than a private party, and need to make up for it. You do get the advantage of the dealership being able to find and repair issues better than private parties (prior to putting the car for sale), as well as the ability to return to the dealership with any problems, whereas with a private party you are usually fucked. But still, keep in mind that you are paying for these advantages.

2) You were smart not to purchase anything during your visit to the lot. You rarely get the best deal that way. Car dealers (both new and used) try very hard to get you to purchase while you're there, because the chance that you will buy from them goes way down once you step off the lot. But by "try very hard", I don't mean they give you a good price. I mean that they engage in all kinds of tactics to get you to buy at the price THEY want. They also know that, once you leave, you will be doing research and have a much clearer head, and will only buy if it's a deal you really like. So they generally hope to get an impulse/pressure buy on the lot, and will deal with you a lot more after you leave. Leaving also generates the impression that you can take it or leave it, which brings me to...

3) Your best negotiating tactic is to take a "moderately interested but can take it or leave it" approach. You might be surprised to hear that it's actually better to level with the sales manager and tell him that you are only going to buy if you are getting a good deal, and that you have done a lot of research on the price. This often shuts down a lot of the head games they plan to play on you. Then stick to your guns regarding the price you want, but do not tell them what you are looking for. Keep asking for their best offer, and if they refuse to give you a price that sounds good, politely thank them and go away. They will often call you back later and concede to what you wanted. If they don't, you can always call them back and agree to their best offer. They will never be too insulted to take your business.

4) Don't trust reviews online about a sales manager being "good", unless it's from someone you trust. Many idiots believe they got a great deal and that they dealt with a great, honest guy, when in reality they were just jerked off by a good salesman who said and did all the right things.

5) Don't bother creating competition between managers of the same company. Instead, make it clear that you are looking at other dealerships all over the general area (so they feel they might lose your business), but that you prefer to purchase from them if you can come to terms.

6) Don't use "incentives" as a substitute for a price reduction, unless you really want the things they are throwing in.

7) Do not buy an extended warranty from them, unless it's thrown in as an incentive. There are tons of third party companies (plenty legit, though a few scam ones, too) which sell such warranties for way cheaper than the dealerships do. As always, do your research about these warranties when the time comes. Another reason not to buy the extended warranty early is because you don't know what the future holds. What if you sell the car? What if the car gets totaled -- can the warranty get canceled and fully refunded? It's better not to worry about this stuff until it comes close to the end of the original warranty.

Bottom line is that you are unlikely to get a good deal if you let them direct the process. Their offering "incentives to get the deal done" is them directing the process. Like poker, you want to be the aggressor who controls the game.

As I said, unless you really want those incentives they are throwing in, just cut to the chase, say that you don't need that stuff, and ask them for the very best price they can give you. Make it clear that you will be driving to several dealerships in a 150km radius, and that your #1 goal is to get the best deal possible. Do not let them snow you with bullshit about how they are so much better than the competition.

[BetCheckBet]

Thanks for advice guys,

So we returned today and here's what happened.

Arrived this morning with intention to take car on final test drive and negotiate deal. Unfortunately it gets more complicated.

The car had numerous scratches and dents but nothing too severe and was to be expected based on price (more though than you would expect on a 2 year old vehicle). When we make comment on this the guy says "well it was a woman driver" Essentially meaning its small time stuff and nothing big. Well gf immediately calls him out in shock and he starts to backpedal of course. Poor guy I had to face palm. Apparently the salesman did phones before and is relatively new to the car world as we later learn. Despite this he seems pretty competent.

So as we are doing our final one over gf at last second notices a 6 inch crack at bottom of bumper. This pisses me off cause in my mind this should have been mentioned to us as there was very good chance we could buy and not notice. At that point whether justified or not my trust is shot. I basically call out salesmanger and salesmen in a respectful but direct manner saying this is a big problem that we had to find this crack ourselves and imply they weren't being forthcoming with the info. Salesman says he never noticed it along with salesmanager. I say that can't be true cause such damage would have been documented when they purchased car. Salesman and salesmanager maintain they didn't;t notice. At this point Salesmanager also says that people buy cars all the time with such damage and they don't care about it because its aesthetic and cracked bumper has no real effect. Salesmanager gets really defensive and pushy saying they have nothing to hide and photos online clearly show damage...

Don't know about you guys but the ad makes it seems like car is in perfect condition and you really can't see much here....







Anyways he continues with lines like "why did you think it was "such a good deal"? At this point he basically says "what do I need to do to make this work". I tell him I'm not sure. The problem is trust right now not the price. I explain the initial counter offer I planned and also repairs. Surprisingly he agrees. However, he later comes back and states that he can't budge on price because fixing bumper along with other dents we have requested would be 2500. He agrees to do this but won't budge on price as a result.

He also offers a second vehicle for identical price with more mileage but near perfect body condition. Unfortunately it reeks of smoke. They try and tell us they can "smoke bomb" it and it will be fine. We aren't so convinced...

Afternoon ends with us telling them we need a few days to think about it and see where our trust is.

Opinions valued...

[MumblesBadly]

Opinions valued...

Walk. They tried to cheat you, and then tried to backhanded my berate you into buying. How are they going to treat you when you go for there for repairs?

And start looking for a used car from a private owner. Do you have Craigslist there?
https://www.craigslist.org/about/sites

And do a CarFax on one that you are seriously considering buying to get its accident history.
http://www.carfax.com/company/free-carfax-reports

Also, find an independent mechanic to do an inspection on one that you are serious about buying. And walk from any seller who objects or tries to talk you out of doing an inspection.

[BetCheckBet]

Thanks for advice guys,

So we returned today and here's what happened.

Arrived this morning with intention to take car on final test drive and negotiate deal. Unfortunately it gets more complicated.

The car had numerous scratches and dents but nothing too severe and was to be expected based on price (more though than you would expect on a 2 year old vehicle). When we make comment on this the guy says "well it was a woman driver" Essentially meaning its small time stuff and nothing big. Well gf immediately calls him out in shock and he starts to backpedal of course. Poor guy I had to face palm. Apparently the salesman did phones before and is relatively new to the car world as we later learn. Despite this he seems pretty competent.

So as we are doing our final one over gf at last second notices a 6 inch crack at bottom of bumper. This pisses me off cause in my mind this should have been mentioned to us as there was very good chance we could buy and not notice. At that point whether justified or not my trust is shot. I basically call out salesmanger and salesmen in a respectful but direct manner saying this is a big problem that we had to find this crack ourselves and imply they weren't being forthcoming with the info. Salesman says he never noticed it along with salesmanager. I say that can't be true cause such damage would have been documented when they purchased car. Salesman and salesmanager maintain they didn't;t notice. At this point Salesmanager also says that people buy cars all the time with such damage and they don't care about it because its aesthetic and cracked bumper has no real effect. Salesmanager gets really defensive and pushy saying they have nothing to hide and photos online clearly show damage...

Don't know about you guys but the ad makes it seems like car is in perfect condition and you really can't see much here....







Anyways he continues with lines like "why did you think it was "such a good deal"? At this point he basically says "what do I need to do to make this work". I tell him I'm not sure. The problem is trust right now not the price. I explain the initial counter offer I planned and also repairs. Surprisingly he agrees. However, he later comes back and states that he can't budge on price because fixing bumper along with other dents we have requested would be 2500. He agrees to do this but won't budge on price as a result.

He also offers a second vehicle for identical price with more mileage but near perfect body condition. Unfortunately it reeks of smoke. They try and tell us they can "smoke bomb" it and it will be fine. We aren't so convinced...

Afternoon ends with us telling them we need a few days to think about it and see where our trust is.

Opinions valued...

Walk. They tried to cheat you, and then tried to berate you into buying. Huge mistake!

And start looking for a used car from a private owner. And find a garage to check it out mechanically before buying. And do CarFax on it to get its accident history.
http://www.carfax.com/company/free-carfax-reports

Do you have Craigslist there?
https://www.craigslist.org/about/sites

I liked idea of dealer because felt less likely to get scammed, ironically. Carfax was clean for car. I do believe aside from aesthetic damage the car is in very good shape.

I guess I'm wondering the behaviour above typical for salespeople? Should it be up to buyer to find such damage? Is it unrealistic to expect a salesperson to point out flaws in vehicle?

Also our regular mechanic went out of business (retired) last month so in process of finding new one.

[Dan Druff]

Run far, far away.

This dealership is shady.

No point to pay a premium to deal with people like this.

Might as well buy private party and at least score a good deal.

[sonatine]

There are things I will put up with in a car and things I wont.

Smoke smell? Fuck _that_.

Also I dont know what else pooh posted in this thread but his advice regarding MLPL etc made my dick hard like rottweiler.